The American Nightmare: No Exit, No Entry

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Re: # 101

Surely you misunderstand. I got bored. Heard arguments like this a million times and then some. I can probably argue on similar lines longer than you about exactly why A. US is a meritocracy B. Why a meritocracy is just dandy and C. How humans must evolve. Unfortunately the truth is that most arguments like this are fallacious.

You will get your responses, perhaps in greater detail than you expect, except not in this board but over time in the column.

Thanks for interacting.

Re: 99#

Saima, Saima, Saima.....when will u learn to not just demand answers to ur questions, but also be fair enough to reply to my points, instead of going on tangent, and attack ad hominem

I feel like I wrote 95 in vain......no answers. Your reply seems like playing to audience. Pretty pathetic, i would say.

Re: # 98

And how do you propose `people` should `adapt` to `change.` For example:
1. Who should adapt?
2. What does adaptation mean?
3. What does the change you talk about look like? What is changing? who is changing IT? and why?.
4. How should we convince people that it is they who need to adapt to change?
5. If they agree to `adapt` to `change` what can they do to prove they have successfully `adapted?`.

Re: # 93

The sentiments as express by the gentleman here are a live example of some of the thought processes that I have tried to articulate in the article.

1. Labeling a dissenting view as Marxist. And what`s wrong with Marxism?

2. Confusing creative brainstorming in Corporations with dissent on ethics.

3. Gentleman has also ended up agreeing to some things stated in the article yet made it sound that he has presented the argument.

4. The subtext that he happens to be on the right side of the issue and as long as he wins and his interests are being served than who cares if, as he puts it, 18 yr old girls are starving with 3 kids.

So, from the vantage pt of what was it again; being able to say go fetch in mysql? the gentleman feels that he knows it all.

Somehow some sections seem to regurgigate the message highlighted in Mike Moore`s film, ``The Corporation``. The length of this analysis does not add much credibility to the described doom and gloom. With the changing times people need to learn how to accept and embrace change.

I have always wondered how the USA is going to adjust with the issue of overseas labor working at much lower costs than American labor.

If I get a contract for $20/hr per programmer, I can start a company in Pakistan and make a profit. In addition, Pakistan has given me a tax holiday, on IT, for a few years. Even more, I don`t have to worry about hiring and firing, legal issues, extensive employee benefits, getting sued, etc. Moreso, I can even pirate expensive software, if I really want o cut costs.

Even an entry level html developer charges more than $20/hr in the USA. A consulting company has to charge, at least $100/hr to make any kind of a profit. On sophisticated software, they have to charge much more. IBM etc., even now, charge well over $150/hr. With some consultants coming in at $300/hr. When I was working in a company, once we hired a few consultants for $500/hr each!

Now, once the other countries start getting things sorted out, how in the world is the USA labor going to compete. Why in the world will a US company develop anything in the USA.

Moreover, in manufacturing, engineering etc. how is the USA going to compete. Other than forcefully restricting work visas, on domestic contracts, what else could the USA do. If it refuses visas or off-shoring of jobs, it will lose its exports to companies in Europe, who allow visas and off-shoring, i.e. SAP will develop its software much cheaper than Oracle, if Germany has easier visa conditions than USA...........

In a world, where everyone is competing and everyone is asking for a piece of the pie (not to mention a piece of the natural gas), how can one civilization - Western - forever maintain such a high standard of living? Regardless of the policies it makes........

Uptil WWII, the West was able to control the world`s resources and labor through colonialism. From then till now, the West was able to control the world`s resources, through support of, ``friendly`` regimes and through its coroparations being the only game in town......

But in another 25 years, this corporate colonialism will end also, since other countries corporations will also start competing...........As I said earlier, the cycle driver in Bombay will sllowly move towards a Huyndai, through his off-shored job, causing the SUV driver in California to move down to one, as his job gets off-shored........

53 //People cannot remain stupid forever.//

GT - U R a true optimitst.

Re: #94

Again, lot of rhetorics...let me seperate the substance (very little)

[``Over reliance``? What is ``over reliance``? What ``over reliance`` do the ceos of corporations that devalue the labor of underpaid employees have on cheap labor? Is underpaying a worker so that this corp can make the bottom line and so that the corp can survive and profit while other workers get laid off, a kind of ``over reliance``? Is denying a worker of her right to a just dollar calibrated to the cost of living ``over reliance``? Could you possibly just answer this question, if you are able?
]

``over reliance`` is expecting govt to provide u housing and food. It is expecting company to probvide u 200K USD medical expenses for ur liposection, so that u can walk again with 100 pounds less. It is expecting govt to provide one enough money for him/her 5 illegitmate kids so that she can breed a bunch of criminals. It is expecting govt to just make sure that one can have 3 cars at home, with 1 $ per gallon gas. It is expecting govt to over-regulate market to fix prices, so that every person can live in an owned house with 2 cars, one happy family, and oversized lunch and dinner every day.



[Are you telling me that the sign of of healthy society is having an SUV while another family starves to death? Is this the only way ``capitalism`` can flourish? Please answer the question if you can.
]

No, never did. But yes, if a person is druggie, or is a mother of 3 kids at 18, then they better rot in open street, for others to see. As a society, we have to punish the under achievers. Otherwise whats the charm of success in tough competition? If every one can eat good food, ride good cars, and sleep in comfortable beds, irrespective of their service to society, then is it a free-competitive society?? In my opinion, it is not even a free society.


[The nuclear family itself was predicated on the concept of unpaid labor for women working within the domestic sphere. This is the model some of you guys and gals love so much-Ward goes out to work where his labor is recognized and accorded value while June stays at home and completes invisible work that is valued by the allowance Ward gives her from his paycheck. June`s living on Ward`s subsidized assistance, since Ward just doesnt feel June deserves a real paycheck for doing those little cute things around the house that keep him and his sons prepped for the visible labor force.
]

Apparently u never heard of divorce settlements. Very profitable business for lazy asses women, who `work` at home. I can get verything done professionally (surrogate mother, sex worker, house maids), with my money and no liability, whatsoever :)

BTW, family is one area, where I think govt is too much into our households. Marriage is personal matter, and govt should stay out of it.

[People also need to know the bad choices of ceos, presidents, vps, etc. can wreck their lives. We know Michael Bush`s scandalous behavior is not a problem for you because the Bush Dynasty pays for the damage. Had Dubya been offered the same financial cards that an addict had, I doubt he`d be president.
]

Yes, they do. And we have to make sure that only the best ppl run the company at responsible positions. And if they screw up, they better rot in jail. If it doesn`t happen ideally, we have to make sure that it does. Political contributions by companies should be regulated by its employees

There r certain priveleges that come with money. If u have money in pak, would u send ur kid to Grammar school or KMC school in Nazimabad? If ur kid can`t excel in clas, wont u hire additional tuitors for him? Why would i try to earn more money if i dont make sure that my family gets good benefits out of the money? Your point that a druggie or sex addict in rich family would fare better than the one in poor family, is valid. It is just the nature. This is even how evolution works. One partner always chooses the reliable and strong mate, who can ward of dangers to her offsprings. Is evolution and natural selection so unjustified? Hey, complain with God, if u belive in one.


And Hurrah for my system? Not my system....This is the best human beings come up with. You like Socialism in Cuba or Venezuals, go and live there

Re: # 88

`` I was just saying that over-reliance on govt for every thing is just against the basic foundation of free society. If you have a govt system,``

``Over reliance``? What is ``over reliance``? What ``over reliance`` do the ceos of corporations that devalue the labor of underpaid employees have on cheap labor? Is underpaying a worker so that this corp can make the bottom line and so that the corp can survive and profit while other workers get laid off, a kind of ``over reliance``? Is denying a worker of her right to a just dollar calibrated to the cost of living ``over reliance``? Could you possibly just answer this question, if you are able?

``... in which u have a guaranteed 9-5 job for the life, govt assistance if the women get pregnant at any age, and expect govt to feed the 5 illegeitmate kids, then rest assured, it would never be a thriving, innovative and/or free society...``

A guaranteed job used to be called job security and it used to be a sign of a stable system. Trust the capitalist apologists to claim otherwise. Are you telling me that the sign of of healthy society is having an SUV while another family starves to death? Is this the only way ``capitalism`` can flourish? Please answer the question if you can.

Also, spare me your value judgements. The nuclear family itself was predicated on the concept of unpaid labor for women working within the domestic sphere. This is the model some of you guys and gals love so much-Ward goes out to work where his labor is recognized and accorded value while June stays at home and completes invisible work that is valued by the allowance Ward gives her from his paycheck. June`s living on Ward`s subsidized assistance, since Ward just doesnt feel June deserves a real paycheck for doing those little cute things around the house that keep him and his sons prepped for the visible labor force.

Ironically enough, women and men with more common sense than you are pushing for concepts like flex time and paternity leave. The idea is a more realistic and mutual respectful arrangement of work and family. If this is acceptable in white collar jobs, why not blue collar jobs?


``People need to know that their bad choices can wreck their lives. They should be able to see ppl below poverty level in the society. Poor druggies should be dying on streets, as an example for those who do drugs (and off course, drugs should not be regulated by govt). A free and creative society is not supposed to have all properly fed ppl with all conveniences in their lives (which apparently what Samia Shah belives). On the contrary, it encourages fierce competition, in which slow joggers can be trampled upon in the race.``

People also need to know the bad choices of ceos, presidents, vps, etc. can wreck their lives. We know Michael Bush`s scandalous behavior is not a problem for you because the Bush Dynasty pays for the damage. Had Dubya been offered the same financial cards that an addict had, I doubt he`d be president.

Hurrah for YOUR system.

Re: #89 by SamiaShah

[Freesoul you seem to be a corporate type with the same hang-up that most immigrants from South Asia display. `That people from my country just don`t know how to interact with the American system and I do.`]

It is ur understanding of American Corp culture, that I am criticizing, not everyone else`s. I have 6 years Pak`s software house company experience, and nearly 6 years here in USA. Worked for the biggest software company in the world in USA. So I think i know what the psyche of Pak worker and a pakistani worker in USA. I have worked in 2 very different companies in Karachi, one run by an ex army colonel, and one run by an atheist and drinker. Needless to say, creativity is crushed under army discipline, and more encouraged in an environment, where nothing is beyond question , not even God.

[Also, I have throughout the article acknowledged the incredible open generosity of the Americans and the openness of hiring practices--literally any one from the world can get a job here.]

Again, a misconception. It is not generosity, it is simply 101 economics. Diversity helps. When u dont care about color of skin, and sexuality of person, u get the best ppl in the genes pool. Microsoft stood for its gay and lesbian employees ever since mid 80s. Not a single opportunity goes by when the company does not make sure that its gay emplyees r not discriminated against, not just inside the company, but even in social life outside the company premises. Again, economics 101.

[However, corporate types agree on some funadmental ideas otherwise they wouldn`t be in the Corporation. Dissent is encouraged within these boundaries.]

What r these boundaries? There is a book on Fiefdome Syndrome by Robert Herbold, a seasoned COO. It discusses how creativity can be encouraged within boundaries, so that business discipline can also be ensured. It is tough compromise, but it has to be made. Successfull companies can not remain on the top if a cabal (like in Enron) is running the the corp. Dissent is always encouraged by decentralizing the corp.

Every US company is not Enron. Rigth now, there might be worst cases than Enron, that r still covered up. But such companies will eventually pay the price for the shortcuts they took, in terms of their employees` morale and productivity. Also, Whistleblowers have state and deferal protected rights, outside the company. And u can not generalize the whole issue by Enron brush.

My point is not that all corps r inherently honest. Off course, they will exploit the workforce if they could monoploize the market. Shell could skin ppl in Africa, if it could bribe their govt into silence. I have read in detail about Walmart stories, and if u dig deeper, it is more a case of bunch of greedy employees suing their company. Walmart`s recent leaked memo was another example of propaganda. I read it completely, and i could not undertsand anything wrong in it. If u don;t like Walmart`s medical covergae or promotion grades, just leave the company. BTW, never did any MBA. Now I feel good about it :)

if ur happy with urself and ur article, fine. But ur article lacks supporting facts. It is a bunch of Marxisim-inspired rhetorics, nothing more.

#51, Queenie, {``...On a personal level, apologies for this, you seem way too blinkered in your own little niche of scholarship, that what is beyond your nose is not visible to you - or you refuse to understand it! ``}

Queenie,
A very perceptive comment on your part. It certainly deserves much more exposure than a mere post lost in a maze of messages on this busy board. You are obviously concerned about the acute case of myopia afflicting the subject of your discussion. I am particularly amused and at the same time preturbed by your discovery of the minute universe encompassing this ``little niche of scholarship.`` So, queenie, you are insinuating that like the mammoth blubbery and near-sighted whales of the ocean, this proponet of blind faith in academic welfare cannot see beyond its own nasty nostrils.

Now consider the following gem of wisdom and sound advice:
{``Nick Flynn has a great comment where he says a blank piece of paper is worth more than one with something written on it, because if someone has written on a piece of paper, then that paper cannot be sold to another, loses its value. In the business world, that makes sense, but if you think it about, its a kind of insanity that dictates that the thought of a person is valueless. Why read books or anything? Why communicate?``}

Exactly, and the GOB should heed Mr. Flynn`s advice and let the blank paper find better authors with original thoughts, instead of polluting it with unacknowledged avalanches of incessant verbal floods.

#87, {``please fix the economy real fast so i can pay off my student loans and buy a car and be debt free :( ``}

You can either wait for Saima to fix the economy or consider employment that compensates you above the minimum wage. It`s not too late to audition. :)

#84, Saminasha {``An eighteen year old student of mine who has six month infant can explicate a fairly nuanced critique of the international policies of the Bush administration. Why shouldnt she?``}

Fine, but shouldn`t she have been reading and understanding the benefits of planned parenthood first?

Re: # 82

Freesoul you seem to be a corporate type with the same hang-up that most immigrants from South Asia display. `That people from my country just don`t know how to interact with the American system and I do.` And of-course there could be nothing wrong with the US economy because well it is so much richer than the economies of so many other countries. Right?

Also, I have throughout the article acknowledged the incredible open generosity of the Americans and the openness of hiring practices--literally any one from the world can get a job here. However, corporate types agree on some funadmental ideas otherwise they wouldn`t be in the Corporation. Dissent is encouraged within these boundaries. Surely you read about Enron? If dissent had been part of the culture as much as you seem to think--then the Enron debacle would have been corrected a long time ago. Surely you read about Shell and its disgusting behaviour in African countries. Surely you know how Walmart hires and how anti women its hiring policies are...surely you read beyond your MBA curriculum?

I am thankful to say that my sojourn in academics is/was interdisciplinary, so neither Marx nor the Popplers, nor socialism nor capitalism got my mind. Perhaps you weren`t so fortunate...:) I hope you take this in good spirit.

Re: # 84


I was not downplaying the importance of alternative news resources. I was just saying that over-reliance on govt for every thing is just against the basic foundation of free society. If you have a govt system, in which u have a guaranteed 9-5 job for the life, govt assistance if the women get pregnant at any age, and expect govt to feed the 5 illegeitmate kids, then rest assured, it would never be a thriving, innovative and/or free society.

People need to know that their bad choices can wreck their lives. They should be able to see ppl below poverty level in the society. Poor druggies should be dying on streets, as an example for those who do drugs (and off course, drugs should not be regulated by govt). A free and creative society is not supposed to have all properly fed ppl with all conveniences in their lives (which apparently what Samia Shah belives). On the contrary, it encourages fierce competition, in which slow joggers can be trampled upon in the race.