The American Nightmare: No Exit, No Entry

Somehow some sections seem to regurgigate the message highlighted in Mike Moore`s film, ``The Corporation``. The length of this analysis does not add much credibility to the described doom and gloom. With the changing times people need to learn how to accept and embrace change.

Re: # 98

And how do you propose `people` should `adapt` to `change.` For example:
1. Who should adapt?
2. What does adaptation mean?
3. What does the change you talk about look like? What is changing? who is changing IT? and why?.
4. How should we convince people that it is they who need to adapt to change?
5. If they agree to `adapt` to `change` what can they do to prove they have successfully `adapted?`.

I have always wondered how the USA is going to adjust with the issue of overseas labor working at much lower costs than American labor.

If I get a contract for $20/hr per programmer, I can start a company in Pakistan and make a profit. In addition, Pakistan has given me a tax holiday, on IT, for a few years. Even more, I don`t have to worry about hiring and firing, legal issues, extensive employee benefits, getting sued, etc. Moreso, I can even pirate expensive software, if I really want o cut costs.

Even an entry level html developer charges more than $20/hr in the USA. A consulting company has to charge, at least $100/hr to make any kind of a profit. On sophisticated software, they have to charge much more. IBM etc., even now, charge well over $150/hr. With some consultants coming in at $300/hr. When I was working in a company, once we hired a few consultants for $500/hr each!

Now, once the other countries start getting things sorted out, how in the world is the USA labor going to compete. Why in the world will a US company develop anything in the USA.

Moreover, in manufacturing, engineering etc. how is the USA going to compete. Other than forcefully restricting work visas, on domestic contracts, what else could the USA do. If it refuses visas or off-shoring of jobs, it will lose its exports to companies in Europe, who allow visas and off-shoring, i.e. SAP will develop its software much cheaper than Oracle, if Germany has easier visa conditions than USA...........

In a world, where everyone is competing and everyone is asking for a piece of the pie (not to mention a piece of the natural gas), how can one civilization - Western - forever maintain such a high standard of living? Regardless of the policies it makes........

Uptil WWII, the West was able to control the world`s resources and labor through colonialism. From then till now, the West was able to control the world`s resources, through support of, ``friendly`` regimes and through its coroparations being the only game in town......

But in another 25 years, this corporate colonialism will end also, since other countries corporations will also start competing...........As I said earlier, the cycle driver in Bombay will sllowly move towards a Huyndai, through his off-shored job, causing the SUV driver in California to move down to one, as his job gets off-shored........

53 //People cannot remain stupid forever.//

GT - U R a true optimitst.

Re: #94

Again, lot of rhetorics...let me seperate the substance (very little)

[``Over reliance``? What is ``over reliance``? What ``over reliance`` do the ceos of corporations that devalue the labor of underpaid employees have on cheap labor? Is underpaying a worker so that this corp can make the bottom line and so that the corp can survive and profit while other workers get laid off, a kind of ``over reliance``? Is denying a worker of her right to a just dollar calibrated to the cost of living ``over reliance``? Could you possibly just answer this question, if you are able?
]

``over reliance`` is expecting govt to provide u housing and food. It is expecting company to probvide u 200K USD medical expenses for ur liposection, so that u can walk again with 100 pounds less. It is expecting govt to provide one enough money for him/her 5 illegitmate kids so that she can breed a bunch of criminals. It is expecting govt to just make sure that one can have 3 cars at home, with 1 $ per gallon gas. It is expecting govt to over-regulate market to fix prices, so that every person can live in an owned house with 2 cars, one happy family, and oversized lunch and dinner every day.



[Are you telling me that the sign of of healthy society is having an SUV while another family starves to death? Is this the only way ``capitalism`` can flourish? Please answer the question if you can.
]

No, never did. But yes, if a person is druggie, or is a mother of 3 kids at 18, then they better rot in open street, for others to see. As a society, we have to punish the under achievers. Otherwise whats the charm of success in tough competition? If every one can eat good food, ride good cars, and sleep in comfortable beds, irrespective of their service to society, then is it a free-competitive society?? In my opinion, it is not even a free society.


[The nuclear family itself was predicated on the concept of unpaid labor for women working within the domestic sphere. This is the model some of you guys and gals love so much-Ward goes out to work where his labor is recognized and accorded value while June stays at home and completes invisible work that is valued by the allowance Ward gives her from his paycheck. June`s living on Ward`s subsidized assistance, since Ward just doesnt feel June deserves a real paycheck for doing those little cute things around the house that keep him and his sons prepped for the visible labor force.
]

Apparently u never heard of divorce settlements. Very profitable business for lazy asses women, who `work` at home. I can get verything done professionally (surrogate mother, sex worker, house maids), with my money and no liability, whatsoever :)

BTW, family is one area, where I think govt is too much into our households. Marriage is personal matter, and govt should stay out of it.

[People also need to know the bad choices of ceos, presidents, vps, etc. can wreck their lives. We know Michael Bush`s scandalous behavior is not a problem for you because the Bush Dynasty pays for the damage. Had Dubya been offered the same financial cards that an addict had, I doubt he`d be president.
]

Yes, they do. And we have to make sure that only the best ppl run the company at responsible positions. And if they screw up, they better rot in jail. If it doesn`t happen ideally, we have to make sure that it does. Political contributions by companies should be regulated by its employees

There r certain priveleges that come with money. If u have money in pak, would u send ur kid to Grammar school or KMC school in Nazimabad? If ur kid can`t excel in clas, wont u hire additional tuitors for him? Why would i try to earn more money if i dont make sure that my family gets good benefits out of the money? Your point that a druggie or sex addict in rich family would fare better than the one in poor family, is valid. It is just the nature. This is even how evolution works. One partner always chooses the reliable and strong mate, who can ward of dangers to her offsprings. Is evolution and natural selection so unjustified? Hey, complain with God, if u belive in one.


And Hurrah for my system? Not my system....This is the best human beings come up with. You like Socialism in Cuba or Venezuals, go and live there

Re: # 95

These notions are out of ``The Myth of the Welfare Queen 101`` and are not worth responding to. Stop talking out of your ass and dont post to me in the future. Thank you.

Re: #89 by SamiaShah

[Freesoul you seem to be a corporate type with the same hang-up that most immigrants from South Asia display. `That people from my country just don`t know how to interact with the American system and I do.`]

It is ur understanding of American Corp culture, that I am criticizing, not everyone else`s. I have 6 years Pak`s software house company experience, and nearly 6 years here in USA. Worked for the biggest software company in the world in USA. So I think i know what the psyche of Pak worker and a pakistani worker in USA. I have worked in 2 very different companies in Karachi, one run by an ex army colonel, and one run by an atheist and drinker. Needless to say, creativity is crushed under army discipline, and more encouraged in an environment, where nothing is beyond question , not even God.

[Also, I have throughout the article acknowledged the incredible open generosity of the Americans and the openness of hiring practices--literally any one from the world can get a job here.]

Again, a misconception. It is not generosity, it is simply 101 economics. Diversity helps. When u dont care about color of skin, and sexuality of person, u get the best ppl in the genes pool. Microsoft stood for its gay and lesbian employees ever since mid 80s. Not a single opportunity goes by when the company does not make sure that its gay emplyees r not discriminated against, not just inside the company, but even in social life outside the company premises. Again, economics 101.

[However, corporate types agree on some funadmental ideas otherwise they wouldn`t be in the Corporation. Dissent is encouraged within these boundaries.]

What r these boundaries? There is a book on Fiefdome Syndrome by Robert Herbold, a seasoned COO. It discusses how creativity can be encouraged within boundaries, so that business discipline can also be ensured. It is tough compromise, but it has to be made. Successfull companies can not remain on the top if a cabal (like in Enron) is running the the corp. Dissent is always encouraged by decentralizing the corp.

Every US company is not Enron. Rigth now, there might be worst cases than Enron, that r still covered up. But such companies will eventually pay the price for the shortcuts they took, in terms of their employees` morale and productivity. Also, Whistleblowers have state and deferal protected rights, outside the company. And u can not generalize the whole issue by Enron brush.

My point is not that all corps r inherently honest. Off course, they will exploit the workforce if they could monoploize the market. Shell could skin ppl in Africa, if it could bribe their govt into silence. I have read in detail about Walmart stories, and if u dig deeper, it is more a case of bunch of greedy employees suing their company. Walmart`s recent leaked memo was another example of propaganda. I read it completely, and i could not undertsand anything wrong in it. If u don;t like Walmart`s medical covergae or promotion grades, just leave the company. BTW, never did any MBA. Now I feel good about it :)

if ur happy with urself and ur article, fine. But ur article lacks supporting facts. It is a bunch of Marxisim-inspired rhetorics, nothing more.

Re: # 93

#93 by freesoul on November 19, 2005 2:02pm PT Score=1 [plus | minus | remove]
Re: #89 by SamiaShah

Freesoul, I did not see a reply # 95 addressed to me. I am however posting a detailed reply since you asked me to do so on this response--I had thought that I had answered it in my previous post--that it was self-evident, but apparently not.

[Freesoul you seem to be a corporate type with the same hang-up that most immigrants from South Asia display. `That people from my country just don`t know how to interact with the American system and I do.`]

(It is ur understanding of American Corp culture, that I am criticizing, not everyone else`s. I have 6 years Pak`s software house company experience, and nearly 6 years here in USA. Worked for the biggest software company in the world in USA. So I think i know what the psyche of Pak worker and a pakistani worker in USA. I have worked in 2 very different companies in Karachi, one run by an ex army colonel, and one run by an atheist and drinker. Needless to say, creativity is crushed under army discipline, and more encouraged in an environment, where nothing is beyond question , not even God. )

I feel I am repeating myself here—the point I am making in the article is about dissent on ethics, not creative brainstorming that is usually encouraged in Corporations especially software companies.

[Also, I have throughout the article acknowledged the incredible open generosity of the Americans and the openness of hiring practices--literally any one from the world can get a job here.]

(Again, a misconception. It is not generosity, it is simply 101 economics. Diversity helps. When u dont care about color of skin, and sexuality of person, u get the best ppl in the genes pool. Microsoft stood for its gay and lesbian employees ever since mid 80s. Not a single opportunity goes by when the company does not make sure that its gay emplyees r not discriminated against, not just inside the company, but even in social life outside the company premises. Again, economics 101. )

I made the exact same point in the article—that a lot of actions are motivated by economics. Whatever the motivation, American companies do not discriminate which is a plus for them since they appear to be open and generous which in turn motivates people to work in America.

[However, corporate types agree on some funadmental ideas otherwise they wouldn`t be in the Corporation. Dissent is encouraged within these boundaries.]

(What r these boundaries? There is a book on Fiefdome Syndrome by Robert Herbold, a seasoned COO. It discusses how creativity can be encouraged within boundaries, so that business discipline can also be ensured. It is tough compromise, but it has to be made. Successfull companies cannot remain on the top if a cabal (like in Enron) is running the the corp. Dissent is always encouraged by decentralizing the corp.

Every US company is not Enron. Rigth now, there might be worst cases than Enron, that r still covered up. But such companies will eventually pay the price for the shortcuts they took, in terms of their employees` morale and productivity. Also, Whistleblowers have state and deferal protected rights, outside the company. And u can not generalize the whole issue by Enron brush. )

I quote, “such companies will eventually pay the price for the shortcuts they took”. Article mentions market corrections.

I quote, “And u can not generalize the whole issue by Enron brush.” Neither can you generalize that the corporation is a/ democratic or even b/anarchist.

(My point is not that all corps r inherently honest. Off course, they will exploit the workforce if they could monoploize the market. Shell could skin ppl in Africa, if it could bribe their govt into silence. I have read in detail about Walmart stories, and if u dig deeper, it is more a case of bunch of greedy employees suing their company. Walmart`s recent leaked memo was another example of propaganda. I read it completely, and i could not undertsand anything wrong in it. If u don;t like Walmart`s medical covergae or promotion grades, just leave the company. BTW, never did any MBA. Now I feel good about it :) )

Any one knows exactly what the corporation excels in doing, producing in bulk and erecting barriers to entry. So, you feel that employees of a corporation that is bigger than some governments should just leave the corporation simply because the employee can find another job? In other words, people should not try to improve the ethics of a system, just simply leave when it starts stinking. And that the politics of self-interest are completely justifiable and even, `natural.`

I quote, “if ur happy with urself and ur article, fine. But ur article lacks supporting facts. It is a bunch of Marxisim-inspired rhetorics, nothing more. “

Your reply is weak. You are saying exactly the same things that I stated in the article. Except that you are content with them and I am critical. We are using different measuring sticks. And you are using capitalist propaganda, little else to refute my arguments.

Regards.

ps; more next article

Re: # 93

The sentiments as express by the gentleman here are a live example of some of the thought processes that I have tried to articulate in the article.

1. Labeling a dissenting view as Marxist. And what`s wrong with Marxism?

2. Confusing creative brainstorming in Corporations with dissent on ethics.

3. Gentleman has also ended up agreeing to some things stated in the article yet made it sound that he has presented the argument.

4. The subtext that he happens to be on the right side of the issue and as long as he wins and his interests are being served than who cares if, as he puts it, 18 yr old girls are starving with 3 kids.

So, from the vantage pt of what was it again; being able to say go fetch in mysql? the gentleman feels that he knows it all.

#51, Queenie, {``...On a personal level, apologies for this, you seem way too blinkered in your own little niche of scholarship, that what is beyond your nose is not visible to you - or you refuse to understand it! ``}

Queenie,
A very perceptive comment on your part. It certainly deserves much more exposure than a mere post lost in a maze of messages on this busy board. You are obviously concerned about the acute case of myopia afflicting the subject of your discussion. I am particularly amused and at the same time preturbed by your discovery of the minute universe encompassing this ``little niche of scholarship.`` So, queenie, you are insinuating that like the mammoth blubbery and near-sighted whales of the ocean, this proponet of blind faith in academic welfare cannot see beyond its own nasty nostrils.

Now consider the following gem of wisdom and sound advice:
{``Nick Flynn has a great comment where he says a blank piece of paper is worth more than one with something written on it, because if someone has written on a piece of paper, then that paper cannot be sold to another, loses its value. In the business world, that makes sense, but if you think it about, its a kind of insanity that dictates that the thought of a person is valueless. Why read books or anything? Why communicate?``}

Exactly, and the GOB should heed Mr. Flynn`s advice and let the blank paper find better authors with original thoughts, instead of polluting it with unacknowledged avalanches of incessant verbal floods.

#87, {``please fix the economy real fast so i can pay off my student loans and buy a car and be debt free :( ``}

You can either wait for Saima to fix the economy or consider employment that compensates you above the minimum wage. It`s not too late to audition. :)

#84, Saminasha {``An eighteen year old student of mine who has six month infant can explicate a fairly nuanced critique of the international policies of the Bush administration. Why shouldnt she?``}

Fine, but shouldn`t she have been reading and understanding the benefits of planned parenthood first?

saima shah,

please fix the economy real fast so i can pay off my student loans and buy a car and be debt free :(

i think the author deserves credit for raising some very interesting points which are being ignored by the u.s. media which as usual has its head up its ass. comment on u.s. economy being on a debt induced consumption binge is especially relevant because as a result of this, u.s. policy makers are slowly losing control over interest rates and exchange rates - two essential tools through which they shape the u.s. economy. u.s. is currently running record trade and budget deficits. trade deficits means that u.s. is figuratively speaking, sending dollars in record amounts to foreigners - mainly chinese, koreans, taiwanese, japanese and arabs (for high oil prices). at the same time, u.s govt is borrowing record amounts to finance budget deficits which occur because govts spend more than what they receive.

so what does the record u.s. trade and budget deficit have to do with u.s. govt losing control of interest rates and exchange rate? its because, foreigners who now hold dollars in record numbers are buying u.s. treasuries (ust) in record numbers because they have to invest their dollar holdings earned through exports. ust is the instrument of choice because its regarded as the safest investment instrument in the world. for those who dont know, ust is the instrument through which uncle sam borrows money. the more buyer there are for usts, the lower the cost of borrowing for uncle sam. while in normal situation this is a good outcome, in the current economic scenario, when the fed is trying to raise rates to fight inflation, low long term rates are not a desirable outcome for the fed because low rates rate to higher consumption which usually leads to higher inflation. btw this was the ``conundrum`` greenspan talked about recently. also paul krugman argues that u.s. economy has recently done better than it should have because lower rates have caused a bubble like situation in the real estate sector. wrt exchange rate, since foreigners hold record amount of dollars, they can also sell these dollars whenever they please there by driving down the value of the dollar.

anyone who knows americans know that americans hate losing control and they hate it even more if foreigners have a say in the affairs of the americans. fears are justified because foreigners may react in ways which might be to the detriment of u.s. economy. while this not going to happen in the short run because i. global central bankers want to preserve stability ii. u.s. is the only game in town in the medium term.

long term? well that depends on your view. my view is negative on the u.s. economy. after wwii, u.s. was the only game in town because its competitors were in shambles because of war (europe and japan) and third world was either emerging from colonialism (india) or revolution (china). things however are going to be different going forward and i would argue u.s. industry will never regain competitivenss in important sectors like auto, electronics, steel etc. this essentially means that high paying middle class manufacturing jobs are essntially gone forever. obviously u.s. companies are going to dominate the service sector (hollywood, banking) fo sometime to come. however service dont pay that well to people on the lower rungs. essentially this means that in my opinion, succeeding generations of americans are going to be less well off than their parents - opposite of what was the case after wwii. data on income seems to confirm this assessment. real wages for lower and middle class americans have been stagnant since early seventies.

markets also seem to indicate that all the action is going to be in emerging mkts going forward. while u.s. markets have essentially gone sideways over the last five years, returns on emerging market asset class have gone through the roof. also warren buffet had made a huge bet against the dollar although he pulled after suffering huge loses. also, bill gross, the leading bond fund manager in the u.s, is pretty negative on the u.s. economy. i can post his views here if required.

Cumkhwa, #74 {``chacha chauhan...
can we apply the same rule on altaf bhai and his followers and send them back to where ever they came from for a better life...;) ``}

Betay Khamkhwa meN mat preshaan kiya karo. :)
Who is the ``we`` in ``apply`` and ``send back? `` I thought that you were a Punjoo from Faisalabad. When did you purchase Karachi? BTW, did it ever occur to you that many of them left a better life because of the partition imposed on them without their permission?
By immigrating to Pakistan, the Mohajirs raised the literacy rates of both countries. :)

Re#81

I am harsh because i read the whole article, and got nothing out of it. And on chowk.com, this is the 2nd arcticle which wasted my time.

I swear I could take every para in this article, and just wonder at the premise of the arguments presented. Just out of curiosity, I have subscribed to one Pakistan Labor/Communist Party group in Yahoo, and i usually get the kinds of mails, in which Chavez and Castro r presented as the next answer to USA, and free market economy`s ills r presented in layoffs and bad medical coverage.

Here is a another gem:

``Mainstreaming of American life perpetuate. What this means that all the people in positions of power have the same values, otherwise they don’t get there. Thanks to a filtering process adopted by all corporations that weeds out all nay-sayers, the Corporate only hires its own kind.``

I don`t know which American org the author has worked for, but my experience is very different. Dissent is always encouraged. This is how a free society works. South Asians come from traditional/conservative societies, where dissent is discouraged, women and men r put in some specific roles, and degrees r assumed to be key to a good life-time guaranteed 9-5 job. They come to this country, and get confused at how come Corps could lay off ppl.

BB, this is market economy. you can fire your company and vice versa, at will. I hope you will read the emplyment contract, if u ever get one.