Kashmir United -- A Peek into a Luton Ghetto

Aslam644 you are so right.

Omar Sheikh would not have been produced by mirpuri community without the jihadi infrastructure in form of jihad training madrassas provided by the mother country, and cynically supported by the elite of pakistan.

Omar Shiekh only became ``bad`` after daniel pearl qurbani, he was considered a hero before because he was able to make the indian prime minister and foreign minister beg for an airplane load of travellers.

Had Mirpuris been from india, they would have had the respect they deserved, that of a hard-working mogrant community, trying to get a better life for their kids like the panjabi and gujju community.

aslam #88 You are quite right on both points. No doubt the mirpurias had to endure hardship in the beginning - but even back then, they did this out of choice and a ``British passport`` was (and remains) a prized item among them. Many of them worked hard and with enterprise, and that paid off as they established themselves in UK over the past 40 years. And no doubt most pakistanis in UK love england as you say - and indeed, even pakistanis not in UK appreciate in addition to the rich cultural heritage of UK, the freedom of speech, personal security, and other aspects of a civilized society they can find in UK - these include the rich and famous (or infamous) like zardari and his surrey palace, the mqm leader altaf hussain, benazir, and now the nawaz family seeking to leave saudi arabia for UK.

But clearly this is not the complete picture - after all, the lethal combination of the ``blame game`` plus ``religious intoxication`` I referred to earlier did give rise to the london underground bombers a few months ago as well as to omar sheikh. There must exist an environment that provided the above-mentioned lethal combination that gave rise to these extremists. And for every one extremist, there must be a few others raised in a similar environment who will never make the headlines, but will simply lose out on opportunities as they simmer in self-created hatreds and ignorance of the bigger picture. That is the environment that we need to be mindful of - the kind of environment that individuals like masadi (on chowk below) seek to promote with their one-sided negative diatribes against the west.

tahmed
After ww2 when mirpuris started coming to england, they came to a racist and hostile environment. worked in textile and steel mills, mostly in night shifts, very often paid less than whites, lived in overcrowded housing.

they had to for years endure the geographical break-up of their families, there was no chance of promotions or job quotas, yet for every omar shiekh there are thousands of others who still love england, YES still love england and fish n chips and sing god save the queen.

So who`re the pakis going to blame this time?
1. Racism
2. Oppression of the iraqis, kashmiris and palestinians?

Minorities break `class barrier`

Half of children from Indian working class families went into professional or managerial posts, compared with 43% of white children, it found.

But Pakistani and Bangladeshi children did worse than some white children.

#83 by rsridhar on December 7, 2005 8:43pm PT

Pleae don`t quote from hate-sites...

As you might know, the facts hate the pakis...

re: faisaluno`s post
(the onus of integrating immigrants falls on to the majority communnity - goras in this case who have generally not done a good job of it be it uk goras or american goras. when i was in college in the u.s. it was fascinating to observe the lack of social interaction between the kulloos and the goras. most kaalas would eat together on separate tables and in fact had their own separate section in the cafeteria. and the kaalas who hung out with the goras were generally ostracised by the kaala community. also the kaalas and goras at work also did not interact much out
side work. i would imagine things are no different in the u.k.)
The onus on integrating with the majority community is with the immigrant populaton. Nobody asked u guys to immigrate. Immigration comes with some obligation. Pakis woefully lack in skills to integrate.
Also, this ``gora`` versus ``kallu`` debate is nonsense. I find the majority community in US very friendly and have not faced any signficant discrimination either at workplace or in general.
Pakis have a ghetto mentality to start with and they project all their frustrations and failures on to others.
When i was in New York, i used to meet a lot of Pakis even outside my work place. One of them was teaching karate and was from NWFP. Always talking nonsense about US. I used to think why the hell is he in US if he hates the place so much. He was also a religious nutcase and talked a lot about Kashmir and hated India (pretty much sums up a typical Paki, does it not?).
Not all were like him though. I also met a lot of good Pakis in New York.
Sridhar

re: statistics about immigrant population in UK
http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/facts/index39.aspx?ComponentId=12534&SourcePageId=6970
Sridhar

re: comparison of immigrant workers in Britain
http://www.jrf.org.uk/knowledge/findings/socialpolicy/sprN48.asp
(The incomes of ethnic minorities

Some minority groups have prospered in Britain, but others remain severely disadvantaged. Until recently there has been no reliable information on the total incomes available to minority households. Richard Berthoud, of the University of Essex, has been analysing the Family Resources Survey. He shows that there is wide diversity between minority groups. Some are in serious poverty.

* Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are easily the poorest groups in the country. High unemployment among men; low levels of economic activity among women; low pay; and large family sizes: these all contribute to a situation in which 60 per cent of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are poor. This is four times the poverty rate found among white people. See a list of related documents...
* Indian and Chinese people have high levels of employment, and their earnings are on a par with those of white workers. On these measures, they can be seen to be prospering. But overall their rates of poverty are higher than for white households. See a list of related documents...
* Many people of Caribbean origin are unemployed, and there is a high rate of lone parenthood in this community. Wages for Caribbean men (though not for women) also tend to fall below those of their white equivalents. But overall, the rate of poverty among Caribbeans is only slightly higher than that among white households. See a list of related documents...
* It is difficult to characterise Africans as a single group, and they have not previously been the subjects of detailed study. But this research suggests that their incomes are low - lower than those of Caribbeans with whom they are often compared. See a list of related documents...
* The social security system, and especially means-tested benefits, contributes a large proportion of the incomes of some minority groups, especially Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.)
Sridhar

re:#20 by Urstruly
People who are unable or unwilling to integrate into any society have always brought up this agenda of discrimination.
How come hindus in UK are not discriminated for their color and religion? How come study after study have shown that Indians (regardless of religious affiliation) have done better than Pakis, Bangladeshis?
I think the common denominator is the kind of Islam that both Pak and Bangladesh practice even in the countries they migrate to that keeps them from integrating.
Nobody asked u guys to migrate. You did it for economic reasons. Now, you have created new ghettoes everywhere and your newer generation of Pakis in UK, France etc are loathed, seggreated. It is time to ponder and see what went wrong rather than shifting blame on the host and labelling everything as discrimination.
Sridhar

mr. madani - dont worry about what the arjuns of india (or anyone else for that matter) think - they are not important.

the important thing is that we give up this habit of closing our eyes to reality. and the reality is that instead of taking advantage of the opportunities provided to them in UK (as so many other immigrants from around the world are doing), too many immigrants from pakistan are happy to bad mouth the same british people who let them into their country (or worse, as in case of omar sheikh and co). and in doing so, they are going to achieve nothing other than remain the underclass of UK while others move on ahead.

#78 i checked your link on ``aggragates``, and it refers to an article written by you that requires seeking your permission to access!! if you have any ``aggregates`` to present, i suggest you cut and paste them here.

and it is no earthshattering revelation that there are a few developed nations in a sea of underdevelopment. you merely add the term ``racially exclusive`` to the term ``developed nations``. Like i said you are playing around with words only - because you have no substance behind your assertions and (so far) have proved unwilling to acknowledge reality (of the omar sheikh kind that i pointed out to you and which you have been studiously ignoring).

Re: # 78 Mr.Arjun will be happy to read this and may even sponer such writing. Sorry writer. No need show advertise problems of community. This newspaper people think bad news is only news. sorry writer.

#76, I base my conclusions on REAL world data, world data does not mean ONE individual- it means aggregate data regarding public or global issues. You are again confusing it with personal trouble or personal issue of individuals. If you want real world data, read this article, http://www.geocities.com/globalghetto

When I tell you that there are only a handful of racially exclusive developed countries in a sea of underdevelopment, all backed by data, and social indicators, you don`t consider that real world data? Data sources are given on the top right hand corner of the site http://www.asadi.org

Good day.

amrita #74 yes indeed, everyone should be so lucky - having the option to live their life as they please (within the bounds of the law of course, and of that famous quote ``your freedom ends where my nose begins``).

masadi: kaalchakra makes a valid point in #75. one needs to look at ``real world data`` as he puts it, otherwise one is merely spinning things in thin air. i presented you with some very ``real world data`` in #55 the form of omar sheikh - you ignored that in your response. you have a scholarly writing style - i suggest you add a bit of scholarly substance to it as by focussing on reality, rather than ignoring it because it does not suit your pre-conceived notions.

masadi, tahmed32

Of course, both of you fully understand the issues involved: Individuals, groups, social structures, and their mutual interactions, all contribute their separate effects.

There really isn`t any basis to assume that any one of these multiple effects ALWAYS overwhelms all others. It`s best, IMO, to leave that as an empirical question - to be derived from real world data.