Kashmir United -- A Peek into a Luton Ghetto
Zarrar Said December 6, 2005
#49 Posted by harish_hyd on December 7, 2005 12:36:15 am
#20 by Urstruly on December 6, 2005 11:39am PT
[It is a great injustice to even suggest that the cause for the dilapidated state of colored people in Europe is because of the inferior genetic make up of those people, or religion, or race, or color of those people. That forms the very basis of the institutionization of the dicrimination. It is the alibi of the dominant people, hiding behind which they try to get away.]
Aww, poor you. That`s exactly how a non-Muslim feels in a Muslim country. The reason why a Yousuf Youhana becomes Mohammad Yousuf.
[It is a great injustice to even suggest that the cause for the dilapidated state of colored people in Europe is because of the inferior genetic make up of those people, or religion, or race, or color of those people. That forms the very basis of the institutionization of the dicrimination. It is the alibi of the dominant people, hiding behind which they try to get away.]
Aww, poor you. That`s exactly how a non-Muslim feels in a Muslim country. The reason why a Yousuf Youhana becomes Mohammad Yousuf.
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#48 Posted by anil on December 6, 2005 10:54:45 pm
Re: # 46
Godot, Saad, and abskii:
Luton brought back some memories for me. A little over 33 years ago, I spent a year in Luton, after finishing my education at University of Birmingham. I worked for a eletronic instrumentation company called Kent Instruments Limited on Biscot Road. I lived in Wensleydale area. At that time, Luton was still predominantly white, although Pakistani workers had begun to arrive to work at the Vauxhall (GM) plant. My manager was a very fine English gentleman, and his wife was a teacher in the school. They had invited me over for a dinner to their home, and were discussing about the school performance. His wife was quite surprised that the academic performance of Asian-Indian kids was better than the academic performance of the Asian-Pakistani kids. Apparently at that time, the school district had conducted study that concluded that home environment was lot to do. It was not the religion, as the study found both groups were equally religious in their own way, but among Asian-Indian kids, the emphasis to study came from their mothers more than their father. Their kids generation or even subsequent generation is what Zarr Said is talking about.
According to this teacher-wife about 33 years ago, I distinctly recall that she had predicted that the biggest escape velocity from Ghetto comes from empowerment thrugh education or through ability go out in the mainstream (I guess in case of African Americans Football and Basket Ball), and in the absence of which Pakistanit kids will form ghettos, whereas Indian kids will escape.
A couple of years ago, a friend of mine who is a busy doctor in Florida was approached by a couple these Pakistani-British kids from Luton. One of them was a very fast talker and was able to convince many doctors in America on investment opporunity, including this friend of mine, and raised about $3M to finance the purchase of vintage french wines for their sale in the U.S. This friend asked me at that time, if I would like to invest, I politely told her that I do not invest in something I cannot get involved, and in fact I invest my time first and then money later. No one these Pakistani-British kids completed their high school, but very extremely presentable and smooth talker. These kids were from Luton, and she had even flown to Luton to check them and their project out. Last night she called me to tell me that nothing of the project materialized, the complaint by the ``conned`` doctors to the FBI resulted in the arrest of these kids from Luton, and their Irish partner by the Scotland yard. I had asked her, why did she invest money so blindly, she and some of her other doctor investors told me that they saw that these kids were smart, like their own kids, and had a dream to succeed, and they were able to pursuade doctors to invest. According to her, sadly they did not know how to realize their dreams, and now have ended up being criminals. As an aside, she mentioned that these kids were very passionate about liberating Kashmir, and used to visit Pakistan and PoK. This doctor friend of mine is an Indian.
Anil
Godot, Saad, and abskii:
Luton brought back some memories for me. A little over 33 years ago, I spent a year in Luton, after finishing my education at University of Birmingham. I worked for a eletronic instrumentation company called Kent Instruments Limited on Biscot Road. I lived in Wensleydale area. At that time, Luton was still predominantly white, although Pakistani workers had begun to arrive to work at the Vauxhall (GM) plant. My manager was a very fine English gentleman, and his wife was a teacher in the school. They had invited me over for a dinner to their home, and were discussing about the school performance. His wife was quite surprised that the academic performance of Asian-Indian kids was better than the academic performance of the Asian-Pakistani kids. Apparently at that time, the school district had conducted study that concluded that home environment was lot to do. It was not the religion, as the study found both groups were equally religious in their own way, but among Asian-Indian kids, the emphasis to study came from their mothers more than their father. Their kids generation or even subsequent generation is what Zarr Said is talking about.
According to this teacher-wife about 33 years ago, I distinctly recall that she had predicted that the biggest escape velocity from Ghetto comes from empowerment thrugh education or through ability go out in the mainstream (I guess in case of African Americans Football and Basket Ball), and in the absence of which Pakistanit kids will form ghettos, whereas Indian kids will escape.
A couple of years ago, a friend of mine who is a busy doctor in Florida was approached by a couple these Pakistani-British kids from Luton. One of them was a very fast talker and was able to convince many doctors in America on investment opporunity, including this friend of mine, and raised about $3M to finance the purchase of vintage french wines for their sale in the U.S. This friend asked me at that time, if I would like to invest, I politely told her that I do not invest in something I cannot get involved, and in fact I invest my time first and then money later. No one these Pakistani-British kids completed their high school, but very extremely presentable and smooth talker. These kids were from Luton, and she had even flown to Luton to check them and their project out. Last night she called me to tell me that nothing of the project materialized, the complaint by the ``conned`` doctors to the FBI resulted in the arrest of these kids from Luton, and their Irish partner by the Scotland yard. I had asked her, why did she invest money so blindly, she and some of her other doctor investors told me that they saw that these kids were smart, like their own kids, and had a dream to succeed, and they were able to pursuade doctors to invest. According to her, sadly they did not know how to realize their dreams, and now have ended up being criminals. As an aside, she mentioned that these kids were very passionate about liberating Kashmir, and used to visit Pakistan and PoK. This doctor friend of mine is an Indian.
Anil
#47 Posted by masadi on December 6, 2005 10:09:00 pm
#45, care to show me what`s ``idiotic`` in my post. If not, spare me your narrow minded provincialism.
#46 you said and I quote ``In Luton’s case, I believe the problem is the elders’ fear of living in an alien environment, their inability to adapt, their stubborn clinging to their past, their using religion as an escape and an excuse to make them feel better and shoving it down their children’s throats to satisfy their psychological needs are the culprit. It’s pure psychology that drives them, and their children are the victims. It’s a vicious cycle. ``
This is exactly what it is not. You are confusing a public issue with personal trouble of individual character, sort of a ``culture of poverty`` type of argument. Take the example of marriage: Inside a marital relationship, personal problems might exist between the couple which may lead to divorce, but when almost half of all marriages attempted end in divorce in a society, it has to do with the social institution of marriage and family, how it is changing and how other institutions are affecting or causing such change, in short it is a issue involving social structure.
Similarly the case with the ghetto is that regardless of individual character, for the vast majority there will be no escape simply because the structure created therein by the external society keeps them there. For public/social issues, individual solutions don`t work, we need a change in the social structure and that will not happen until the structure that perpetuates racism exists. Read #43 for fuller discription.
#46 you said and I quote ``In Luton’s case, I believe the problem is the elders’ fear of living in an alien environment, their inability to adapt, their stubborn clinging to their past, their using religion as an escape and an excuse to make them feel better and shoving it down their children’s throats to satisfy their psychological needs are the culprit. It’s pure psychology that drives them, and their children are the victims. It’s a vicious cycle. ``
This is exactly what it is not. You are confusing a public issue with personal trouble of individual character, sort of a ``culture of poverty`` type of argument. Take the example of marriage: Inside a marital relationship, personal problems might exist between the couple which may lead to divorce, but when almost half of all marriages attempted end in divorce in a society, it has to do with the social institution of marriage and family, how it is changing and how other institutions are affecting or causing such change, in short it is a issue involving social structure.
Similarly the case with the ghetto is that regardless of individual character, for the vast majority there will be no escape simply because the structure created therein by the external society keeps them there. For public/social issues, individual solutions don`t work, we need a change in the social structure and that will not happen until the structure that perpetuates racism exists. Read #43 for fuller discription.
#46 Posted by Godot on December 6, 2005 7:24:05 pm
Re: # 38
amrita
As you realize, it is a very difficult question to answer: how to remedy the ghetto-ness of those who are stuck in it?
From within is only exception-based. If you noticed, Turkish’s parents were wealthy enough to send their son to America. Not everyone is that privileged in a ghetto. Also, the realization along with a will to change has to be there as well. How many of them are like that in a ghetto?
From society is quite difficult. Individuals like you and I are too busy with our own privileged lives to make an attempt to change the mentality of a huge group. It’s a Herculean task. Their ``own`` society apparently is not capable or they wouldn’t be stuck in the rut for so long and for so many generations.
From the government is probably the only workable option. Government has to implement policies that encourage and train the youngsters for a better life. Shedding and overcoming inherent biases, prejudices, and insecurities have to be a major part of that policy.
In Luton’s case, I believe the problem is the elders’ fear of living in an alien environment, their inability to adapt, their stubborn clinging to their past, their using religion as an escape and an excuse to make them feel better and shoving it down their children’s throats to satisfy their psychological needs are the culprit. It’s pure psychology that drives them, and their children are the victims. It’s a vicious cycle.
Ghettoes exist everywhere and in all societies that I know of (they perhaps don’t exist in a very homogenous society such as Norway or Finland.) The problem is how to get them out of it. Realization is exception-based. Government can do so much. You and I can only nod our heads in sadness. And the world moves on.
amrita
As you realize, it is a very difficult question to answer: how to remedy the ghetto-ness of those who are stuck in it?
From within is only exception-based. If you noticed, Turkish’s parents were wealthy enough to send their son to America. Not everyone is that privileged in a ghetto. Also, the realization along with a will to change has to be there as well. How many of them are like that in a ghetto?
From society is quite difficult. Individuals like you and I are too busy with our own privileged lives to make an attempt to change the mentality of a huge group. It’s a Herculean task. Their ``own`` society apparently is not capable or they wouldn’t be stuck in the rut for so long and for so many generations.
From the government is probably the only workable option. Government has to implement policies that encourage and train the youngsters for a better life. Shedding and overcoming inherent biases, prejudices, and insecurities have to be a major part of that policy.
In Luton’s case, I believe the problem is the elders’ fear of living in an alien environment, their inability to adapt, their stubborn clinging to their past, their using religion as an escape and an excuse to make them feel better and shoving it down their children’s throats to satisfy their psychological needs are the culprit. It’s pure psychology that drives them, and their children are the victims. It’s a vicious cycle.
Ghettoes exist everywhere and in all societies that I know of (they perhaps don’t exist in a very homogenous society such as Norway or Finland.) The problem is how to get them out of it. Realization is exception-based. Government can do so much. You and I can only nod our heads in sadness. And the world moves on.
#45 Posted by tahmed32 on December 6, 2005 6:00:48 pm
masadi: you sound like an idiot. you should fit right in here on chowk. :-)
#43 Posted by masadi on December 6, 2005 5:11:15 pm
Institutionalized racism, and the resulting social exclusion leads to an ``oppositional`` social structure for the oppressed. In this case the Pakistanis in the UK in the US case the African Americans, in the France case, the Arabs; these structures, once created perpetuate themselves. The real blame lies not with the individuals who suffer the effects but on the powers that be, the elite whose arrangements, the economic and political institutions help maintain these structures and the resulting exclusion.
Expand this to a larger level and we see why there are a few, almost totally racially exclusive-as far as majority population goes- developed countries (before Japan entered the group recently, and modern Japan is a US satellite, they were totally white majority countries) within a sea of underdevelopment. This arrangement is kept in place by the US elite, who dominate the world system; racial oppression is an important tool in their world-view. You cannot blame religion or culture for the suffering of the ghetto dwellers either, for regardless of what religion they believe in or what culture they live by, the social status of the aggregates (not talking about individuals here) perpetuates generation after generation, and their condition regardless of who they are stays the same. The only thing that can fix these conditions is altering the social structure, but doing that will cut the exclusive privilage of the US elite so they do their utmost to keep the superior subordinate relationship going generation after generation. Human suffering, lost opportunities, shattered hopes and wasted talent is of no consequence to them- what matters is power and wealth. As recent empirical evidence of that look at what they did with Iraq, one of the most well developed countries of the middle east in the 1970s, now little different than a ghetto
Here is an article, http://www.geocities.com/globalghetto
Expand this to a larger level and we see why there are a few, almost totally racially exclusive-as far as majority population goes- developed countries (before Japan entered the group recently, and modern Japan is a US satellite, they were totally white majority countries) within a sea of underdevelopment. This arrangement is kept in place by the US elite, who dominate the world system; racial oppression is an important tool in their world-view. You cannot blame religion or culture for the suffering of the ghetto dwellers either, for regardless of what religion they believe in or what culture they live by, the social status of the aggregates (not talking about individuals here) perpetuates generation after generation, and their condition regardless of who they are stays the same. The only thing that can fix these conditions is altering the social structure, but doing that will cut the exclusive privilage of the US elite so they do their utmost to keep the superior subordinate relationship going generation after generation. Human suffering, lost opportunities, shattered hopes and wasted talent is of no consequence to them- what matters is power and wealth. As recent empirical evidence of that look at what they did with Iraq, one of the most well developed countries of the middle east in the 1970s, now little different than a ghetto
Here is an article, http://www.geocities.com/globalghetto
#42 Posted by jang on December 6, 2005 2:40:13 pm
#36 by Raw_Dust
well, the pakistani 1-st gen actually did OK in good-ol UK running their fish-n-chips shops, or working in the mills. the article is about 2-nd gen guys. the schools in the US kind of enforce americanism (citizenship) from hot-dogs in the cafeteria to baseball to a heavy OD of american history (for the book-minded).
also interesting is to exlore the contribution of the mother-ship. the political and other enviroment of the mother ship must have some influence since the older-gen is so stuck in the old-country.
well, the pakistani 1-st gen actually did OK in good-ol UK running their fish-n-chips shops, or working in the mills. the article is about 2-nd gen guys. the schools in the US kind of enforce americanism (citizenship) from hot-dogs in the cafeteria to baseball to a heavy OD of american history (for the book-minded).
also interesting is to exlore the contribution of the mother-ship. the political and other enviroment of the mother ship must have some influence since the older-gen is so stuck in the old-country.
#41 Posted by abskii on December 6, 2005 2:11:50 pm
mr. Said, I must say that I read your article with fascination and a smile. Your writing style is both honest and entertaining.
I live in Luton, and some of your observations are quite close to the bone! I see/hear a lot of british-asians complaining about being treated differently, but shunning strangers out with the vigour one would save for the nerd at school. During my shopping trips to the famous Bury Park (where I nearly always have some old man decide i`m his new best friend), I tend to see certain types of people............
.......although I doubt I have your wit, maybe I should write on a westerner`s view of british-asians! And also on Kashmiris in their natural environment.......
I live in Luton, and some of your observations are quite close to the bone! I see/hear a lot of british-asians complaining about being treated differently, but shunning strangers out with the vigour one would save for the nerd at school. During my shopping trips to the famous Bury Park (where I nearly always have some old man decide i`m his new best friend), I tend to see certain types of people............
.......although I doubt I have your wit, maybe I should write on a westerner`s view of british-asians! And also on Kashmiris in their natural environment.......
#40 Posted by ali_1 on December 6, 2005 1:55:58 pm
#32 by delhiwala
``Why is Chowk UP giving error message on connecting?``
Chowk UP has installed a chootiya filter. Sorry.
``Why is Chowk UP giving error message on connecting?``
Chowk UP has installed a chootiya filter. Sorry.
#39 Posted by amrita on December 6, 2005 1:48:42 pm
Re: # 33
i dont dispute the fact that racism exists and that one of the reasons given for it is racial inferiority but i dont see why you would challenge the point the author is making based on that.
i dont dispute the fact that racism exists and that one of the reasons given for it is racial inferiority but i dont see why you would challenge the point the author is making based on that.
#38 Posted by amrita on December 6, 2005 1:44:23 pm
Re: # 31
godot - when its a case of nurture, its something that needs to be remedied primarily from within. zarrar says that in the person of Turkish he sees a possible solution... young men who might make different choices because they have had the good fortune to see another side to the world than one that was presented to them in childhood. the struggle is to bring that world to the places where they live rather than hope that they can go out or be privileged enuff to go out and discover it for themselves.
and thats where the society in general comes in - and thats the sticking point isnt it? coz what do we mean when we say society? the people in the pub who left when they saw the group of `pakis` [in the epithet sense of it] or the govt which can possibly pass any number of laws about any number of things affecting individual choices but in the end is limited in its ability to actually effect changes in attitude across a spectrum? do we mean the parents who are operating out a fear that the desire to earn a good living is slowly robbing them of their identity and leaving their children as a species of cultural half breeds or do we mean the kids themselves who in spite of their possible frustration at the quality of their life, would still take unkindly to one of their number who did anything different or rebelled? i suppose that the answer would lie somewhere in between but frankly, i dont know.
i`m an indian hindu girl from a privileged background - i can suppose plenty but thats really about it. i`d be interested to know what you think.
godot - when its a case of nurture, its something that needs to be remedied primarily from within. zarrar says that in the person of Turkish he sees a possible solution... young men who might make different choices because they have had the good fortune to see another side to the world than one that was presented to them in childhood. the struggle is to bring that world to the places where they live rather than hope that they can go out or be privileged enuff to go out and discover it for themselves.
and thats where the society in general comes in - and thats the sticking point isnt it? coz what do we mean when we say society? the people in the pub who left when they saw the group of `pakis` [in the epithet sense of it] or the govt which can possibly pass any number of laws about any number of things affecting individual choices but in the end is limited in its ability to actually effect changes in attitude across a spectrum? do we mean the parents who are operating out a fear that the desire to earn a good living is slowly robbing them of their identity and leaving their children as a species of cultural half breeds or do we mean the kids themselves who in spite of their possible frustration at the quality of their life, would still take unkindly to one of their number who did anything different or rebelled? i suppose that the answer would lie somewhere in between but frankly, i dont know.
i`m an indian hindu girl from a privileged background - i can suppose plenty but thats really about it. i`d be interested to know what you think.
#37 Posted by Raw_Dust on December 6, 2005 1:43:58 pm
Urstruly:
Why in the first place, believing muslims should immigrate to Dar-ul-Harab? What is the Sharaee answer and what is the islamic ethic has to say about these young muslim workers coming in to earn and pay taxes to a system that is using that Ush`r/tax partially to run bombing campaigns and commit war crimes against hapless muslims around the globe?
What does that say about specifically You, how are you going to answer Allah mian and the dead victims of these bombs (funded by your tax-dollars) on the judgement day? You hoping these muslim men women and children will forgive you on that day?
Why in the first place, believing muslims should immigrate to Dar-ul-Harab? What is the Sharaee answer and what is the islamic ethic has to say about these young muslim workers coming in to earn and pay taxes to a system that is using that Ush`r/tax partially to run bombing campaigns and commit war crimes against hapless muslims around the globe?
What does that say about specifically You, how are you going to answer Allah mian and the dead victims of these bombs (funded by your tax-dollars) on the judgement day? You hoping these muslim men women and children will forgive you on that day?
#36 Posted by Raw_Dust on December 6, 2005 1:37:10 pm
jang:
it seems this freewheeling welfare system is just too open-ended for abuse. i mean if we discount the african american situation (which is totally unique and separate from fobs) out of the picture for a second, then all new immigrants regardless of their religion do prosper with time in usa. pakistanis without higher education background are successfully running gas stations and further expanding just like turks and greeks are into diner businesses. (purely from observation).
is there a pakistani ghetto or algerian ghetto etc. within usa? i dont think so.
zarrar sahib:
good article although the tone got condescending at points and could have been done away with.
it seems this freewheeling welfare system is just too open-ended for abuse. i mean if we discount the african american situation (which is totally unique and separate from fobs) out of the picture for a second, then all new immigrants regardless of their religion do prosper with time in usa. pakistanis without higher education background are successfully running gas stations and further expanding just like turks and greeks are into diner businesses. (purely from observation).
is there a pakistani ghetto or algerian ghetto etc. within usa? i dont think so.
zarrar sahib:
good article although the tone got condescending at points and could have been done away with.
#35 Posted by Urstruly on December 6, 2005 1:30:01 pm
Re: # 34 Jang
The program would work much better if along with immigrants, those who are already citizens are tested on what they know about Sallauddin.
#34 Posted by jang on December 6, 2005 1:24:19 pm
the english sarkar have recognized the issue and have started applying amrikan solution. now they insist on passing a citizenship exam like the one you take in the US..so soon you will have to know about Sir Arthur and not just Sallauddin.
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