Kashmir United -- A Peek into a Luton Ghetto

#107, 108, tahmed32- you are sadly mistaken. It is a fact that during the late middle ages different regions of the world were almost equally developed. The industry in India at the time of the British colonization was more developed than that of Britain. Britain ruined it and treated the indigeneous folk like vermin, put India, and other colonized areas by wholesale theft, back by atleast a century, and currently their domination of trade, the US elite and their British clients, are causing immense misery all over the world. According to the trade report published by Oxfam, can be read at http://maketradefair.com, it states ``Northern governments reserve the most restrictive barriers for the world`s poorest people...Trade restrictions in rich countries cosot developing countries around $100 Billion a year- which is TWICE as much as they receive in aid.``

If the British had not ransacked India, India could have been a global power at the current time, on par with any developed country. Your ``Nawab`` and poverty analysis is BS, no where is there greater inequality in the developed world than in the US with a gini index of over 0.85 almost near total inequality; with 1% of the wealthiest owning more wealth than the rest of the 99% combined.

#113, these ``forced marriage`` diatribes are just a distraction, things like this, the ``opposition culture`` arises because of things like the ones mentioned above. The colonials ruined us, destroyed our institutions, ghettoized us, as a result what you`re going to see is a reactionary culture that reproduces itself. Even if you try to assimilate into the so called British culture, they will still reject you, look down upon you and their institutions will block your progress, a few individuals here n there might make it through but for the social aggregates IMPOSSIBLE- mere distraction tactics and a legitimation of the superior subordinate worldview perpetuated by the (damn) fool British neo-colonials- look at the way the barbarians attacked Iraq and then they call themselves enlightened.

No..you`re not dead last because of hindu domination or racism...IT`s your own fault..

EDITORIAL: Britain must be commended for preventing forced marriages

A British newspaper has revealed that the British High Commission in Islamabad has set up a “diplomatic snatch squad” to rescue Pakistani-British women who are forced to marry Pakistani men by their UK-resident families. This is an interesting report and confirms what has unofficially been known for some time. Britain has a large Pakistani population from areas in and around Mirpur, Azad Kashmir, as well as other parts of Pakistan, including central Punjab. Most of these people went to the UK four or five decades ago to look for work, mostly menial labour, which the English were prepared to outsource to their former colonies. Over the years these people were given British nationality with the expectation they would integrate with the host society. Some of them became rich in the second generation and most now have dual nationality children who are third- and fourth-generation British citizens.

But let us admit it. As a group, Pakistanis — and Muslims in general — have been the single largest group unwilling to integrate into the host country. There are many reasons for this: tradition — the joint family system, rise of political Islam and Islamist groups indoctrinating the young boys and girls, and so on. The reluctance to integrate also results in low educational levels among British-Pakistani boys, high crime rates and a general sense of despondency. Some of these factors are now being taken seriously by the British government in the wake of the July 7 and 21 bombings in London.

Less violent, but no less abhorrent, is the practice among many Pakistani families to forcibly marry their girls to their cousins in Pakistan. While many elders still latch on to traditional values brought from their home country and feel nostalgic about them, the younger generation, especially women, find the freedom in the West to their advantage and are more likely to integrate than either their elders or their male siblings. The result: many such women fall foul of their families.

The British government and its High Commission in Islamabad must be commended for taking seriously the plight of these women and proactively trying to rescue them. As the report suggests, while the problem of forced marriages is not peculiar to Pakistan — other such countries include India and Bangladesh — we have most such cases. British government statistics reveal that Pakistani dual nationals — there are an estimated 80,000 of them — account for 60 percent of all such cases handled by the Foreign Office’s Forced Marriage Unit. That, as a single social group, is clearly a very high proportion.

The report indicates, though indirectly, that the Pakistan government is helping the British High Commission in its efforts to prevent such marriages. If this is correct, then the Musharraf government must also be commended. There is need to fight such regressive attitudes jointly. It is ludicrous to argue that the West is encroaching upon our cultural values. Forced marriages cannot be defended on any grounds, least of all on the basis of religion. Islam expressly forbids forcing anyone — man or woman — into a matrimonial arrangement. It is a shame that many clerics and even so-called educated people in this country look at the issue in and through a male-domination framework. We have seen how the government defeated its own bill on honour killing, indicating that even our representatives, most of them from the rural areas, are not convinced that honour killing is an abominable practice. Such is the contempt in which progressive legislation and court verdicts are still held in this country that Arbab Ghulam Rahim, the Sindh chief minister who is a blue-eyed boy of the establishment, has openly flouted a 2004 decision by the Sindh High Court’s Sukkur Bench that jirgas are against the law and the Constitution of Pakistan.

The Pakistan government should continue to actively support efforts by the British government to curb the practice of forced marriages. But it must also enlighten its own legislators who, for the most part, still cherish the medieval ideas London is fighting against.

Finally, it must be noted that while the British government goes to such lengths to protect the rights and interests of its citizens, our Muslim brethren — Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states and various other Islamic countries — treat expatriates, who have contributed to their economic progress in a major way, most shabbily. The ex-pats have no rights and they are never granted citizenship. We say this because the general tendency here is to talk disparagingly about the West while uncritically lauding the “Islamic” world. There may be many things wrong with the West, but there is no reason why we should not be able to objectively analyse things. *

#111 Arjun {``Salim bhai...not to be a grammar nazi or anything but the expression is I couldn`t care less...``}

Arjun,
You are right. :)

Mere bhai, why do you want the world to associate India with Insidious Taxation?

#110 by Salim_Chauhan on December 9, 2005 9:50am PT


I could care less


Salim bhai...not to be a grammar nazi or anything but the expression is I couldn`t care less...As in ``I couldn`t care less what ahmadzai thinks of India as long as the world associated India with IT and Pakistan with jihad``...

ahmadzai #101 {``You wrote, ``Good for you.`` When I first ventured abroad, my English must have been like Mirpurias. When I heard this phrase from a Gora American for the very first time, I felt very sad. I thought that when the gora said `good for you`, he actually meant it is only good for you, you idiot alien, it has nothing to do with me so go and get lost. I mean the phrase sent that message to me. ``}

Ahmedzai,
My friend, you were right actually. ``Good for you`` has two very different messages depending on the tone. Said with a smile and without sarcasm, it means just that - ``Iam happy for your success.`` Said with a frown, a sarcastic look (rolling eyes icon) means ``I could care less, if you think it`s a big deal, go ahead - I am jealous and don`t give a rat`s ass about anything you did, said, or wished.`` Honestly, I never saw it the way you described it additonally ``it is only good for you, you idiot alien, it has nothing to do with me so go and get lost.``} Anyway, I meant it as a true compliment on your wit and humor.

aslam #104 that is interesting info you provide about what happened to the mirpurias after the textile mills closed down. i assume thatcher could not have legally ordered the textile mills closed (since these were probably privately owned), but instead probably removed government subsidies that had kept imports of textiles from cheaper third world producers out. another question which perhaps you may wish to shed some light on is: what caused the initial wave of migration to take place from mirpur (a supposedly underdeveloped area) or pakistan in the first place? was it simply lack of interest in migration on the part of people in the cities, while mirpur people saw this as a way out of joblessness? the latter seems like a possibility to me, since before the 1960`s, migration was not an option people considered seriously - and until the early 1970`s countries like germany in fact had no visa restrictions on the pakistani passport and yet hardly any pakistani bothered to enter germany back then.

in #107, the last sentence of first para. should read: ``If there had been no western influence, there is no reason to believe that the subcontinent would not have been still ruled by kings and nawabs while poor people took their poverty for granted as being part of the natural order of things.``

masadi: the west is hardly to blame for poverty and poor living conditions in pakistan (or other developing nations) - if anything, the west deserves credit for improvements in these living conditions: medicines developed in the west have significantly prolonged life spans, western science and technology has brought electricity to villages, western ideas have broken the hold of kingships. The list goes on. If there had been no western influence, there is no reason to believe that the subcontinent would have been still ruled by kings and nawabs while poor people took their poverty.

What is holding back pakistan is not western influence but resistance to western influence by those who are opposed to change for one reason or another - whether it is the baluch tribal rulers (who send their sons to top universities in the west for education, but deny even primary education to their followers); or pirs and maulvis (who again, like qazi hussain ahmed, send their sons to the west, fatten themselves, and rail against the west at every opportunity); and just plain rogues (who sit in the west and spit on it at the same time), cowards (who are afraid of change), dictators (who find western democracy a threat to their power and so talk about).

These are the realities plain and simple that no amount of obfuscation can eliminate. only by recognizing these realities can you make any political statements that make any sense.

aslam844#104:

Your response does not fully answer the point I made. If you talk to a Pakistani taxi driver in New York or a Sikh driver in Toronto, you would find that none of them would be satisfied with their children follwoing them in their profession and would like them to get a good education and a good job. While I am not certain about the background of Pakistani taxi drivers, the Sikh taxi drivers in Toronto are generally not well-educated and have learnt only rudimentary English speaking skills. There has to be another explanation in addition to what you stated.

#92 by dost-mittar

``On the face of it, Mirpuris do not seem to share this passion for education.``

I will try and answer the question you raised, since you didn’t indulge in mirpuri bashing, as so many others have done here, you’ve asked a perfectly reasonable question. There are many reasons for low educational attainment amongst mirpuris, some historical, cultural etc. during maharajah’s rule in Kashmir there weren’t many educational institutes in mirpur , what little there were, they were mostly for hindus.

Someone suggested here on chowk before, if Iqbal and manto’s families had stayed in Kashmir, they would probably never have got educated, which is probably true.
Mirpuris who after ww2 came to England were mostly uneducated, that suited the brits, a docile cheap labour to work in the mills. The sons of these mill workers expected to follow their fathers into the mills, but all that changed in the 1980’s, when thatcher ordered the closure of these mills, so in that decade uk went from socialist kingdom (contradiction in terms) back to capitalism. Probably one of the first countries that is moving towards post-industrial era with hardly any manufacturing jobs left.

What became of the mill workers and their sons?

Some went back to mirpur, according to uk gov 80,000 went back mostly to retire, others set up small businesses, takeaways, taxis, and even manufacturing, while some did end up on dole and sex, drugs, and rock n roll.

The good news is a lot of the younger generation are going into higher education especially the girls.

#78, that article doesn`t require any permission, you merely had to click to enter the redirected site which is http://rationalreality.50webs.com/ghetto.htm

Once again, one name does not translate into aggregate data. For other data sources just take a glance at the Population data sheet put out by the US census bureau, look at life expectancy, infant mortality, etc as social indicators, or pick up a Human Development Report published by the UN, available free online, or check Oxfam`s Trade report- documented aggregate data

Jang:

Thanks for # 99.

Sincerely,

Peace.

Arjun at 97:

bura naheen maan yaaaaaaar :-)

My actual take appears at post # 66.

dear ahmedzai, try this link. best luck.

http://www.tehelka.com/

#94, Pakis want to see India breakup and hopefully Bihar becomes a sovereign nation so that Pakistan can claim to be ahead of someone in South Asia. But the pertinent questions are ``Can Pakistan hold out for that long?`` and ``Will Bihar forge ahead of Pakistan, before India breaks up?``

#94 by ahmadzai on December 8, 2005 1:40pm PT

Here`s the thing...If blaming India helps brit-pakis get out of their dead-last place in the UK, by all means go ahead and blame India...