Kashmir United -- A Peek into a Luton Ghetto

further on #62: that should be my post #55, not #45 referred to in my post below.

aslam: the language here (``infesting``, ``virus`` etc.) indicates a disgust with the ``pakis`` in luton - and thus takes away from the objectivity of the article. And (having never heard luton before this article, let alone been there), i will accept what you say about the population.

nevertheless, the article does provide insights that are ignored by too many pakistanis - e.g., notably the ``blame game`` that I refer to in my post #45 below. Thus (to use the example of Omar Sheikh there), UK in fact provided Sheikh with opportunities (notably admission to a top notch university) that he would almost certainly not have received if his father had not migrated to UK (in Pakistan, he would have probably grown up to be a tailor master like his father, making false promises to begum sahibs to deliver their shalwar kameez). One can either ignore this and continue the ``blame game`` of unfairly blaming UK for not providing opportunities. Or one can try to find an explanation in what is written in the article that I quoted earlier: ``Religion was forced upon them like a spoonful of horrible medicine. They swallowed it and were now intoxicated with it. The thought of going against the will of their parents never occurred to them because it was a forbidden thought. Almost like a thought crime, almost... Orwellesque. ``

Thus, while acknowledging the biases and incorrect generalizations apparent in this article, I would be interested in what you think of the ``Omar Sheikh Syndrome`` and how well the underlying reasons are provided by the above quote on ``religious intoxication`` combined with the ``blame game`` .

Tahmed:

Re: # 62

I agree with you on the plight of Pakistanis brought about by ourselves.

I remember reading a very nice article by a British writer in Khaleej Times magazine. She had traveled throughout European countries and Asian subcontinent and had a very dissecting view of the situation. According to her, Pakistanis and Bangla Deshy youths are living a miserable life in Europe, and especially Britain, because of their parents. The parents migrated to these countries in the 50s and 60s and are frozen in that time capsule. According to her, the parent generation does not realize that the societies they came from have developed and are no longer frozen in the 60s.

Therefore, when I visited UK last year, I found that my cousins were actually prohibiting their children from going to a rock concerts. I told them that was totally unwarranted, because back in Pakistan, girls and boys of their (my cousin’s) children ages attend musical concerts and eat at American franchise outlets.

‘But that is haram’, came the reply.

Pakistanis need to be a bit more confident of ourselves. We need to go out, meet natives and intermingle with them a bit more on their turf. These days, being a Muslim is actually to our advantage in introducing to the natives. They want to know us much more than the other way round.

tahmed

``Turkish`s brother Bobby picked me up and we headed for Luton, an experience I will never forget. They were everywhere. Infesting the city. They had taken over like a virus. Pakis had conquered Luton. Downtown Luton could be easily mistaken for Kotli or Mirpur or even Muzzafarabad.``

how can pakistanis who are less than 10% of luton`s population take over, think about it.
i visit luton often you hardly see any pakistanis in downtown until you go into their specific enclave.

aslam and theo, please post your views.. abigail has promised hers. i checked out some images of Luton, and they looked just fine.

aslam: i dont see anything ``fake`` in this article. Does it provide a comprehensive view of the situation - of course not. But then, even Einstein himself struggled to come up with a comprehensive Theory of Everything and failed.

#56 by TheoVanGogh
thanks for those statistics.

i was the first one to point out this guy is fake, i don`t think has set foot in luton either.

one thing i am amazed with is how gulliable the chowk crowd is, they will believe anything.

pardon me if i am wrong but i dont think immigrant visas require immigrants to
only produce model off springs who live their lives as bheegi billis. therefore
its no big deal if a few second generation immigrants turn out to be gunday
undays because hey, thats what the good lord intended i.e. not every second
generation immigrant can become an engineer or a doctor and that few of them
might even turn to out to be losers. other immigrants dont have to go on a guilt
trip over the actions of fellow immigrants of the same background because that
would be stupid - akin to asking every british or american visitor to pak to
justify the action of their governments in middle east.

furthermore, the behaviour of the youths described above, that seems pretty tame
by the standards of british youth. in fact you could argue that the lifestyle described above is milder form of the gora ``yob culture`` which is regarded by the british as a huge menace to the society. so in this respect, you can argue these immigrants have adapted all to well to the british society.

also the onus of integrating immigrants falls on to the majority communnity - goras in this case who have generally not done a good job of it be it uk goras or american goras. when i was in college in the u.s. it was fascinating to observe the lack of social interaction between the kulloos and the goras. most kaalas would eat together on separate tables and in fact had their own separate section in the cafeteria. and the kaalas who hung out with the goras were generally ostracised by the kaala community. also the kaalas and goras at work also did not interact much outside work. i would imagine things are no different in the u.k.

ultimately i would argue, behaviour of minority community has lot to do with the actions of majority community. this is however not to argue for state intervention or for forced multi-culturalism because you cant force different groups to like each other. by the same token, you cant expect minority community to be whiter than white and its idiotic to hold the whole community responsible for the behaviour of individuals.

Everybody

Please take Mr Said`s perceptions with a pinch of salt as you would the writings of anyone who landed in your home town in India, Pakistan, America or Canada and spent a couple of days with a small group of people. As an example of his cluelessness, I point out to you the following from his piece:

``It wasn`t a big town, probably only 400,000 people out of which 90% were Pakis.``

Actually, the 2001 Census informs us that the population of Luton is 184,371 and that the population of Luton is 59.6% Christian, 14.6% Muslim, and the remainder made up of Hindu, Sikh, and Jewish communities.

So, if this writer can more than DOUBLE the population of the town and increase the Pakistani population of Luton by SEVEN - then I will leave it to your imagination what kind of exagerration he makes in the subjective experience of the lives lead by Pakistanis in Luton - when his facts are so basically laughably stupid and wrong, how much his impulse to exagerrate the rest of it is.

Just something that all those blinded by the supposed authenticity and reportage of this account should bear in mind when you read of an American`s short stay experience with a small group of people - please do bear in mind this when forming your judgments.

Census information taken from here:

http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media%20Library/Pdf/Environment%20%26%20regeneration/Planning/Census/Demography%20theme%20paper.pdf

masadi: you want me to show you where your post is idiotic. Fair enough.

you write: ``The real blame lies not with the individuals who suffer the effects but on the powers that be, the elite whose arrangements, the economic and political institutions help maintain these structures and the resulting exclusion. ``

This ``blame game`` takes away responsibility from the individual to do something to help himself - since it takes the easy way out of blaming the ``system`` or the ``elites``. Result: the individual does not feel responsible for improving his condition and thus remains where he is - the underclass. This kind of thinking produces losers like omar sheikh - where he walked away from the opportunity to attend a world reknowned university (London School of Economics) to become a kidnapper of innocent tourists in India and the brutal killer of the father of an unborn child who made the mistake of trusting his security to him.

#43 by masadi on December 6, 2005 5:11pm PT


Institutionalized racism, and the resulting social exclusion leads to an ``oppositional`` social structure for the oppressed.


Indians and Chinese are doing very well in the UK...LN Mittal is the richest man in Europe(or one of the richest)...

That pretty much blows your theory out of the water...

The problem is with the ummah homies...they`re dead last by almost all measures and yet what`s their primary issue when they vote for georgie ``never met a jihadi i didn`t like`` galloway``: the war in iraq, palestine and occupied Kashmir..

His party is called respect..you`d think respect would come from improving the conditions of the pakis in the UK, but no...For pakis in the UK, respect means going against the kaffir US in iraq or the kaffir indians in occupied Kashmir

#48 by anil on December 6, 2005 10:54pm PT


As an aside, she mentioned that these kids were very passionate about liberating Kashmir, and used to visit Pakistan and PoK.


No shit..!!

Drinking merlot doesn`t extinguish the jihadi flame in pakis...drinking hemlock does..

jang

``It wasn`t a big town, probably only 400,000 people out of which 90% were Pakis.``

according to uk gov statistics the total population of luton is 185000, and pakistanis are only 9% of that. that doesn`t make it a ghetto by any stretch of imagination.

more later

abskii

There have been some muted reports of under-age girls being groomed for sex. Anywhere near your area?

#35 by Urstruly

[The program would work much better if along with immigrants, those who are already citizens are tested on what they know about Sallauddin.]

Why should and why would the natives/citizens care to know about Salahuddin? It`s not as if they are migrating with their begging bowls to Arab lands. You must have your head examined.

#20 by Urstruly on December 6, 2005 11:39am PT

[It is a great injustice to even suggest that the cause for the dilapidated state of colored people in Europe is because of the inferior genetic make up of those people, or religion, or race, or color of those people. That forms the very basis of the institutionization of the dicrimination. It is the alibi of the dominant people, hiding behind which they try to get away.]

Aww, poor you. That`s exactly how a non-Muslim feels in a Muslim country. The reason why a Yousuf Youhana becomes Mohammad Yousuf.