Kashmir United -- A Peek into a Luton Ghetto

#107, 108, tahmed32- you are sadly mistaken. It is a fact that during the late middle ages different regions of the world were almost equally developed. The industry in India at the time of the British colonization was more developed than that of Britain. Britain ruined it and treated the indigeneous folk like vermin, put India, and other colonized areas by wholesale theft, back by atleast a century, and currently their domination of trade, the US elite and their British clients, are causing immense misery all over the world. According to the trade report published by Oxfam, can be read at http://maketradefair.com, it states ``Northern governments reserve the most restrictive barriers for the world`s poorest people...Trade restrictions in rich countries cosot developing countries around $100 Billion a year- which is TWICE as much as they receive in aid.``

If the British had not ransacked India, India could have been a global power at the current time, on par with any developed country. Your ``Nawab`` and poverty analysis is BS, no where is there greater inequality in the developed world than in the US with a gini index of over 0.85 almost near total inequality; with 1% of the wealthiest owning more wealth than the rest of the 99% combined.

#113, these ``forced marriage`` diatribes are just a distraction, things like this, the ``opposition culture`` arises because of things like the ones mentioned above. The colonials ruined us, destroyed our institutions, ghettoized us, as a result what you`re going to see is a reactionary culture that reproduces itself. Even if you try to assimilate into the so called British culture, they will still reject you, look down upon you and their institutions will block your progress, a few individuals here n there might make it through but for the social aggregates IMPOSSIBLE- mere distraction tactics and a legitimation of the superior subordinate worldview perpetuated by the (damn) fool British neo-colonials- look at the way the barbarians attacked Iraq and then they call themselves enlightened.

No..you`re not dead last because of hindu domination or racism...IT`s your own fault..

EDITORIAL: Britain must be commended for preventing forced marriages

A British newspaper has revealed that the British High Commission in Islamabad has set up a “diplomatic snatch squad” to rescue Pakistani-British women who are forced to marry Pakistani men by their UK-resident families. This is an interesting report and confirms what has unofficially been known for some time. Britain has a large Pakistani population from areas in and around Mirpur, Azad Kashmir, as well as other parts of Pakistan, including central Punjab. Most of these people went to the UK four or five decades ago to look for work, mostly menial labour, which the English were prepared to outsource to their former colonies. Over the years these people were given British nationality with the expectation they would integrate with the host society. Some of them became rich in the second generation and most now have dual nationality children who are third- and fourth-generation British citizens.

But let us admit it. As a group, Pakistanis — and Muslims in general — have been the single largest group unwilling to integrate into the host country. There are many reasons for this: tradition — the joint family system, rise of political Islam and Islamist groups indoctrinating the young boys and girls, and so on. The reluctance to integrate also results in low educational levels among British-Pakistani boys, high crime rates and a general sense of despondency. Some of these factors are now being taken seriously by the British government in the wake of the July 7 and 21 bombings in London.

Less violent, but no less abhorrent, is the practice among many Pakistani families to forcibly marry their girls to their cousins in Pakistan. While many elders still latch on to traditional values brought from their home country and feel nostalgic about them, the younger generation, especially women, find the freedom in the West to their advantage and are more likely to integrate than either their elders or their male siblings. The result: many such women fall foul of their families.

The British government and its High Commission in Islamabad must be commended for taking seriously the plight of these women and proactively trying to rescue them. As the report suggests, while the problem of forced marriages is not peculiar to Pakistan — other such countries include India and Bangladesh — we have most such cases. British government statistics reveal that Pakistani dual nationals — there are an estimated 80,000 of them — account for 60 percent of all such cases handled by the Foreign Office’s Forced Marriage Unit. That, as a single social group, is clearly a very high proportion.

The report indicates, though indirectly, that the Pakistan government is helping the British High Commission in its efforts to prevent such marriages. If this is correct, then the Musharraf government must also be commended. There is need to fight such regressive attitudes jointly. It is ludicrous to argue that the West is encroaching upon our cultural values. Forced marriages cannot be defended on any grounds, least of all on the basis of religion. Islam expressly forbids forcing anyone — man or woman — into a matrimonial arrangement. It is a shame that many clerics and even so-called educated people in this country look at the issue in and through a male-domination framework. We have seen how the government defeated its own bill on honour killing, indicating that even our representatives, most of them from the rural areas, are not convinced that honour killing is an abominable practice. Such is the contempt in which progressive legislation and court verdicts are still held in this country that Arbab Ghulam Rahim, the Sindh chief minister who is a blue-eyed boy of the establishment, has openly flouted a 2004 decision by the Sindh High Court’s Sukkur Bench that jirgas are against the law and the Constitution of Pakistan.

The Pakistan government should continue to actively support efforts by the British government to curb the practice of forced marriages. But it must also enlighten its own legislators who, for the most part, still cherish the medieval ideas London is fighting against.

Finally, it must be noted that while the British government goes to such lengths to protect the rights and interests of its citizens, our Muslim brethren — Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states and various other Islamic countries — treat expatriates, who have contributed to their economic progress in a major way, most shabbily. The ex-pats have no rights and they are never granted citizenship. We say this because the general tendency here is to talk disparagingly about the West while uncritically lauding the “Islamic” world. There may be many things wrong with the West, but there is no reason why we should not be able to objectively analyse things. *

#111 Arjun {``Salim bhai...not to be a grammar nazi or anything but the expression is I couldn`t care less...``}

Arjun,
You are right. :)

Mere bhai, why do you want the world to associate India with Insidious Taxation?

#110 by Salim_Chauhan on December 9, 2005 9:50am PT


I could care less


Salim bhai...not to be a grammar nazi or anything but the expression is I couldn`t care less...As in ``I couldn`t care less what ahmadzai thinks of India as long as the world associated India with IT and Pakistan with jihad``...

ahmadzai #101 {``You wrote, ``Good for you.`` When I first ventured abroad, my English must have been like Mirpurias. When I heard this phrase from a Gora American for the very first time, I felt very sad. I thought that when the gora said `good for you`, he actually meant it is only good for you, you idiot alien, it has nothing to do with me so go and get lost. I mean the phrase sent that message to me. ``}

Ahmedzai,
My friend, you were right actually. ``Good for you`` has two very different messages depending on the tone. Said with a smile and without sarcasm, it means just that - ``Iam happy for your success.`` Said with a frown, a sarcastic look (rolling eyes icon) means ``I could care less, if you think it`s a big deal, go ahead - I am jealous and don`t give a rat`s ass about anything you did, said, or wished.`` Honestly, I never saw it the way you described it additonally ``it is only good for you, you idiot alien, it has nothing to do with me so go and get lost.``} Anyway, I meant it as a true compliment on your wit and humor.

aslam #104 that is interesting info you provide about what happened to the mirpurias after the textile mills closed down. i assume thatcher could not have legally ordered the textile mills closed (since these were probably privately owned), but instead probably removed government subsidies that had kept imports of textiles from cheaper third world producers out. another question which perhaps you may wish to shed some light on is: what caused the initial wave of migration to take place from mirpur (a supposedly underdeveloped area) or pakistan in the first place? was it simply lack of interest in migration on the part of people in the cities, while mirpur people saw this as a way out of joblessness? the latter seems like a possibility to me, since before the 1960`s, migration was not an option people considered seriously - and until the early 1970`s countries like germany in fact had no visa restrictions on the pakistani passport and yet hardly any pakistani bothered to enter germany back then.

in #107, the last sentence of first para. should read: ``If there had been no western influence, there is no reason to believe that the subcontinent would not have been still ruled by kings and nawabs while poor people took their poverty for granted as being part of the natural order of things.``

masadi: the west is hardly to blame for poverty and poor living conditions in pakistan (or other developing nations) - if anything, the west deserves credit for improvements in these living conditions: medicines developed in the west have significantly prolonged life spans, western science and technology has brought electricity to villages, western ideas have broken the hold of kingships. The list goes on. If there had been no western influence, there is no reason to believe that the subcontinent would have been still ruled by kings and nawabs while poor people took their poverty.

What is holding back pakistan is not western influence but resistance to western influence by those who are opposed to change for one reason or another - whether it is the baluch tribal rulers (who send their sons to top universities in the west for education, but deny even primary education to their followers); or pirs and maulvis (who again, like qazi hussain ahmed, send their sons to the west, fatten themselves, and rail against the west at every opportunity); and just plain rogues (who sit in the west and spit on it at the same time), cowards (who are afraid of change), dictators (who find western democracy a threat to their power and so talk about).

These are the realities plain and simple that no amount of obfuscation can eliminate. only by recognizing these realities can you make any political statements that make any sense.

aslam844#104:

Your response does not fully answer the point I made. If you talk to a Pakistani taxi driver in New York or a Sikh driver in Toronto, you would find that none of them would be satisfied with their children follwoing them in their profession and would like them to get a good education and a good job. While I am not certain about the background of Pakistani taxi drivers, the Sikh taxi drivers in Toronto are generally not well-educated and have learnt only rudimentary English speaking skills. There has to be another explanation in addition to what you stated.

#92 by dost-mittar

``On the face of it, Mirpuris do not seem to share this passion for education.``

I will try and answer the question you raised, since you didn’t indulge in mirpuri bashing, as so many others have done here, you’ve asked a perfectly reasonable question. There are many reasons for low educational attainment amongst mirpuris, some historical, cultural etc. during maharajah’s rule in Kashmir there weren’t many educational institutes in mirpur , what little there were, they were mostly for hindus.

Someone suggested here on chowk before, if Iqbal and manto’s families had stayed in Kashmir, they would probably never have got educated, which is probably true.
Mirpuris who after ww2 came to England were mostly uneducated, that suited the brits, a docile cheap labour to work in the mills. The sons of these mill workers expected to follow their fathers into the mills, but all that changed in the 1980’s, when thatcher ordered the closure of these mills, so in that decade uk went from socialist kingdom (contradiction in terms) back to capitalism. Probably one of the first countries that is moving towards post-industrial era with hardly any manufacturing jobs left.

What became of the mill workers and their sons?

Some went back to mirpur, according to uk gov 80,000 went back mostly to retire, others set up small businesses, takeaways, taxis, and even manufacturing, while some did end up on dole and sex, drugs, and rock n roll.

The good news is a lot of the younger generation are going into higher education especially the girls.

#78, that article doesn`t require any permission, you merely had to click to enter the redirected site which is http://rationalreality.50webs.com/ghetto.htm

Once again, one name does not translate into aggregate data. For other data sources just take a glance at the Population data sheet put out by the US census bureau, look at life expectancy, infant mortality, etc as social indicators, or pick up a Human Development Report published by the UN, available free online, or check Oxfam`s Trade report- documented aggregate data

Jang:

Thanks for # 99.

Sincerely,

Peace.

Arjun at 97:

bura naheen maan yaaaaaaar :-)

My actual take appears at post # 66.

dear ahmedzai, try this link. best luck.

http://www.tehelka.com/

#94, Pakis want to see India breakup and hopefully Bihar becomes a sovereign nation so that Pakistan can claim to be ahead of someone in South Asia. But the pertinent questions are ``Can Pakistan hold out for that long?`` and ``Will Bihar forge ahead of Pakistan, before India breaks up?``

#94 by ahmadzai on December 8, 2005 1:40pm PT

Here`s the thing...If blaming India helps brit-pakis get out of their dead-last place in the UK, by all means go ahead and blame India...

#94 by ahmadzai on December 8, 2005 1:40pm PT


1. Tehelka.com for raising their fingers at corrupt Indians. But I am afraid I will not be able to take it out against them , because I am not able to locate them ever since they exposed corruption amongst Indians.


Maybe your can blame your paki ISP...and they can blame the indian company they get the service from..because i see tehelka.com just fine...in case you didn`t know, an Indian army officer was recently convicted in the scam exposed by tehelka...

Now I`m trying to find a list of Paki army officers who were prosecuted for corruption..or a list of paki army officers who were prosecuted for the genocide in bangladesh in 71...or a list of paki army officers prosecuted for the break up of paki land in 71...or the list of paki army officers responsible for abandoning the dead bodies of paki soldiers in kargil..or the list of paki army officers prosecuted for not getting back Siachen..

I can`t find it because it doesn`t exist..


3. Iraqis for not having the WMDs that you suggested they had.


Huh? You must have me confused with someone else..

#94, ahmadzai {``All of them are busy killing each other in order to make Iraq a peaceful country. ``}

Ahmadzai, LOL
I just thought that I would compliment you on some excellent use of wit and humor. Good for you.

NOTE: The above compliment is not meant to be an endorsement of any particular political or military viewpoint. This is merely a compliment and not offered as an acknowledgement of the fallacy of the current Iraq policy. Opinions of the commentator are solely those of himself and do not constitue the views, opinions, or thoughts of his other personalities.

Salim:

Re: # 95

Thank you sir.

You wrote, ``Good for you.``

When I first ventured abroad, my English must have been like Mirpurias. When I heard this phrase from a Gora American for the very first time, I felt very sad. I thought that when the gora said `good for you`, he actually meant it is only good for you, you idiot alien, it has nothing to do with me so go and get lost. I mean the phrase sent that message to me.

:- D

#92 by dost-mittar on December 8, 2005 12:23pm PT


On the face of it, Mirpuris do not seem to share this passion for education.


Brit-Pakis make up for that by a passion for the palestine, Iraq and Kashmir issues.

Well written, but not a balanced, article.

It is true that a lot of Mirpuris are poor and may be on social benefits. But I am certain that there are also many of them who have come out of the poverty trap. It could be that the writer`s acquaintance in Luton moves around in certain circles which biased his opinion about the Pakistanis living there.

One thing about Mirpuris surprises me, though. Most desis place a high value on education and willing to make any amount of sacrifice to provide a good education to their children. On the face of it, Mirpuris do not seem to share this passion for education.

The issue is not one of assimilation, laziness, or even discrimination. The issue is self-reliance, hard work, and focus. People normally succeed in attaining their priorities, because that`s where they apply their effort and attention. Unfortunately, many (if not most) Muslims, in Europe, Middle East, Pakistan, and even the US, have for some ungodly reason, decided that growing long beards, hiding behind burkas, chanting verses in a language that you may or may not even understand, and emulating life in 7th century Arabia are the most important aspects of life. Education, careers, business, entertainment, and worldly concerns have been eclipsed by their self-destructive obsession with aniquity. Add intolerance and cruelty to this mess and you have what you have today.

Aslam644 you are so right.

Omar Sheikh would not have been produced by mirpuri community without the jihadi infrastructure in form of jihad training madrassas provided by the mother country, and cynically supported by the elite of pakistan.

Omar Shiekh only became ``bad`` after daniel pearl qurbani, he was considered a hero before because he was able to make the indian prime minister and foreign minister beg for an airplane load of travellers.

Had Mirpuris been from india, they would have had the respect they deserved, that of a hard-working mogrant community, trying to get a better life for their kids like the panjabi and gujju community.

aslam #88 You are quite right on both points. No doubt the mirpurias had to endure hardship in the beginning - but even back then, they did this out of choice and a ``British passport`` was (and remains) a prized item among them. Many of them worked hard and with enterprise, and that paid off as they established themselves in UK over the past 40 years. And no doubt most pakistanis in UK love england as you say - and indeed, even pakistanis not in UK appreciate in addition to the rich cultural heritage of UK, the freedom of speech, personal security, and other aspects of a civilized society they can find in UK - these include the rich and famous (or infamous) like zardari and his surrey palace, the mqm leader altaf hussain, benazir, and now the nawaz family seeking to leave saudi arabia for UK.

But clearly this is not the complete picture - after all, the lethal combination of the ``blame game`` plus ``religious intoxication`` I referred to earlier did give rise to the london underground bombers a few months ago as well as to omar sheikh. There must exist an environment that provided the above-mentioned lethal combination that gave rise to these extremists. And for every one extremist, there must be a few others raised in a similar environment who will never make the headlines, but will simply lose out on opportunities as they simmer in self-created hatreds and ignorance of the bigger picture. That is the environment that we need to be mindful of - the kind of environment that individuals like masadi (on chowk below) seek to promote with their one-sided negative diatribes against the west.

tahmed
After ww2 when mirpuris started coming to england, they came to a racist and hostile environment. worked in textile and steel mills, mostly in night shifts, very often paid less than whites, lived in overcrowded housing.

they had to for years endure the geographical break-up of their families, there was no chance of promotions or job quotas, yet for every omar shiekh there are thousands of others who still love england, YES still love england and fish n chips and sing god save the queen.

So who`re the pakis going to blame this time?
1. Racism
2. Oppression of the iraqis, kashmiris and palestinians?

Minorities break `class barrier`

Half of children from Indian working class families went into professional or managerial posts, compared with 43% of white children, it found.

But Pakistani and Bangladeshi children did worse than some white children.

Arjun:

Re: # 87

No lad, we will blame:

1. Tehelka.com for raising their fingers at corrupt Indians. But I am afraid I will not be able to take it out against them , because I am not able to locate them ever since they exposed corruption amongst Indians.

2. Indian Muslims who the Fundoo Indoos said burnt Hindus at Godhra, an incident that led to the Hindus retaliation killing thousands of `terrorist` Muslims in Gujrat. However, I am not able to find those idiot Muslims too ever since the court verdict setting them free by those nincompoop Indian judges.

3. Iraqis for not having the WMDs that you suggested they had. However, I am not able to find any Iraqis too. All of them are busy killing each other in order to make Iraq a peaceful country.

#83 by rsridhar on December 7, 2005 8:43pm PT

Pleae don`t quote from hate-sites...

As you might know, the facts hate the pakis...

re: faisaluno`s post
(the onus of integrating immigrants falls on to the majority communnity - goras in this case who have generally not done a good job of it be it uk goras or american goras. when i was in college in the u.s. it was fascinating to observe the lack of social interaction between the kulloos and the goras. most kaalas would eat together on separate tables and in fact had their own separate section in the cafeteria. and the kaalas who hung out with the goras were generally ostracised by the kaala community. also the kaalas and goras at work also did not interact much out
side work. i would imagine things are no different in the u.k.)
The onus on integrating with the majority community is with the immigrant populaton. Nobody asked u guys to immigrate. Immigration comes with some obligation. Pakis woefully lack in skills to integrate.
Also, this ``gora`` versus ``kallu`` debate is nonsense. I find the majority community in US very friendly and have not faced any signficant discrimination either at workplace or in general.
Pakis have a ghetto mentality to start with and they project all their frustrations and failures on to others.
When i was in New York, i used to meet a lot of Pakis even outside my work place. One of them was teaching karate and was from NWFP. Always talking nonsense about US. I used to think why the hell is he in US if he hates the place so much. He was also a religious nutcase and talked a lot about Kashmir and hated India (pretty much sums up a typical Paki, does it not?).
Not all were like him though. I also met a lot of good Pakis in New York.
Sridhar

re: statistics about immigrant population in UK
http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/facts/index39.aspx?ComponentId=12534&SourcePageId=6970
Sridhar

re: comparison of immigrant workers in Britain
http://www.jrf.org.uk/knowledge/findings/socialpolicy/sprN48.asp
(The incomes of ethnic minorities

Some minority groups have prospered in Britain, but others remain severely disadvantaged. Until recently there has been no reliable information on the total incomes available to minority households. Richard Berthoud, of the University of Essex, has been analysing the Family Resources Survey. He shows that there is wide diversity between minority groups. Some are in serious poverty.

* Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are easily the poorest groups in the country. High unemployment among men; low levels of economic activity among women; low pay; and large family sizes: these all contribute to a situation in which 60 per cent of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are poor. This is four times the poverty rate found among white people. See a list of related documents...
* Indian and Chinese people have high levels of employment, and their earnings are on a par with those of white workers. On these measures, they can be seen to be prospering. But overall their rates of poverty are higher than for white households. See a list of related documents...
* Many people of Caribbean origin are unemployed, and there is a high rate of lone parenthood in this community. Wages for Caribbean men (though not for women) also tend to fall below those of their white equivalents. But overall, the rate of poverty among Caribbeans is only slightly higher than that among white households. See a list of related documents...
* It is difficult to characterise Africans as a single group, and they have not previously been the subjects of detailed study. But this research suggests that their incomes are low - lower than those of Caribbeans with whom they are often compared. See a list of related documents...
* The social security system, and especially means-tested benefits, contributes a large proportion of the incomes of some minority groups, especially Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.)
Sridhar

re:#20 by Urstruly
People who are unable or unwilling to integrate into any society have always brought up this agenda of discrimination.
How come hindus in UK are not discriminated for their color and religion? How come study after study have shown that Indians (regardless of religious affiliation) have done better than Pakis, Bangladeshis?
I think the common denominator is the kind of Islam that both Pak and Bangladesh practice even in the countries they migrate to that keeps them from integrating.
Nobody asked u guys to migrate. You did it for economic reasons. Now, you have created new ghettoes everywhere and your newer generation of Pakis in UK, France etc are loathed, seggreated. It is time to ponder and see what went wrong rather than shifting blame on the host and labelling everything as discrimination.
Sridhar

mr. madani - dont worry about what the arjuns of india (or anyone else for that matter) think - they are not important.

the important thing is that we give up this habit of closing our eyes to reality. and the reality is that instead of taking advantage of the opportunities provided to them in UK (as so many other immigrants from around the world are doing), too many immigrants from pakistan are happy to bad mouth the same british people who let them into their country (or worse, as in case of omar sheikh and co). and in doing so, they are going to achieve nothing other than remain the underclass of UK while others move on ahead.

#78 i checked your link on ``aggragates``, and it refers to an article written by you that requires seeking your permission to access!! if you have any ``aggregates`` to present, i suggest you cut and paste them here.

and it is no earthshattering revelation that there are a few developed nations in a sea of underdevelopment. you merely add the term ``racially exclusive`` to the term ``developed nations``. Like i said you are playing around with words only - because you have no substance behind your assertions and (so far) have proved unwilling to acknowledge reality (of the omar sheikh kind that i pointed out to you and which you have been studiously ignoring).

#76, I base my conclusions on REAL world data, world data does not mean ONE individual- it means aggregate data regarding public or global issues. You are again confusing it with personal trouble or personal issue of individuals. If you want real world data, read this article, http://www.geocities.com/globalghetto

When I tell you that there are only a handful of racially exclusive developed countries in a sea of underdevelopment, all backed by data, and social indicators, you don`t consider that real world data? Data sources are given on the top right hand corner of the site http://www.asadi.org

Good day.

Re: # 78 Mr.Arjun will be happy to read this and may even sponer such writing. Sorry writer. No need show advertise problems of community. This newspaper people think bad news is only news. sorry writer.

amrita #74 yes indeed, everyone should be so lucky - having the option to live their life as they please (within the bounds of the law of course, and of that famous quote ``your freedom ends where my nose begins``).

masadi: kaalchakra makes a valid point in #75. one needs to look at ``real world data`` as he puts it, otherwise one is merely spinning things in thin air. i presented you with some very ``real world data`` in #55 the form of omar sheikh - you ignored that in your response. you have a scholarly writing style - i suggest you add a bit of scholarly substance to it as by focussing on reality, rather than ignoring it because it does not suit your pre-conceived notions.

masadi, tahmed32

Of course, both of you fully understand the issues involved: Individuals, groups, social structures, and their mutual interactions, all contribute their separate effects.

There really isn`t any basis to assume that any one of these multiple effects ALWAYS overwhelms all others. It`s best, IMO, to leave that as an empirical question - to be derived from real world data.

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#55, if you are ignorant of the concept of social structure and public issues and are confusing them as personal trouble of character, I cannot help you. Personal responsibility does not take away the effects of public issues, as a result we see that for social aggregates, groups as a whole things do not change, even if they do for a few individuals here and there. Your solutions, are the same as Bush`s recommendation that abstinence will take care of the AIDS crisis. It will not, UNLESS we take note of the institutional structure of soceity. All such personal responsibility solutions are based on ignorance and we have seen their results- absolutely zero. They merely help to keep the status quo of oppression in place and not much else

#70 or amish dont have the mother ship, feeding them with ideology ;-)

ahmedzai #66 good to hear from you and hope all is well. talking of time capsules reminds me of the Amish in the US - they chose to live in their own time capsule brought over from the middle ages in europe: in ``Amish country`` (originally in pennsylvania, and now also spread to the midwest), the standard mode of transport is the horse and buggy, the men sport beards like maulvis and the women all wear black (sometimes blue when they seek to jazz it up) dresses, and they all live and work on fields and even speak their own language (a low german dialect i think), and produce lots of babies (and so their numbers are in fact increasing, not dying out as one would think!). All this because they think this will make God happy with them.

The basic difference between these people and our mirpur brothers and sisters is that the Amish dont carry a chip on their shoulders, and realize that they have chosen to live in this time capsule and dont go around blaming the ``elite`` or the ``system``.

Re: # 70
well, the amish get a year off when they`re in their teens or something when they`re allowed to go `outisde` and experience all that the world has to offer. they can behave as un-amish as they wish. at the end of the year they can either return or stick to their new life. everyone should be that lucky.

Kaura #67 {``, and my friend were well aware of the muslim ways.......long story short, they wasted their smooth talking and money on wrong persons......``}

I agree. It`s dangerous to generalize, but I have found Indians, especially Hindus and Sikhs, especially in the US, to be far more honest than Pakis. Just an observation.

Said Sahib,
Finally got around to reading it and what a well-written and captivating article you wrote. I found it to be informative, depressing, and very timely. I had no idea about this aspect of Paki diaspora life in the UK. Thanks for enlightening us - you write very well and I look forward to more of your talented work.

``...........No one these Pakistani-British kids completed their high school, but very extremely presentable and smooth talker........``

That is one of the most deceitful yet formidable trait in a muslim`s arsenal. That is how they succeed and survive when the circumstances are stacked against them. That is how they are able to seduce non muslim girls and men too......sweet and smooth talking....before stabbing in the back........

In UP, I was presented many such business investments....one of them suggested that I should give him 100,000 right there.....after they treated us to a nice meal at the best restaurant......

I, and my friend were well aware of the muslim ways.......long story short, they wasted their smooth talking and money on wrong persons......

#57 by faisaluno on December 7, 2005 6:28am PT


also the onus of integrating immigrants falls on to the majority communnity


Right...Unless the brits make sure palestine, Indian Kashmir, Iraq and Afghanistan are liberated, a particular minority will continue to blow itself up in subways...

further on #62: that should be my post #55, not #45 referred to in my post below.

aslam: the language here (``infesting``, ``virus`` etc.) indicates a disgust with the ``pakis`` in luton - and thus takes away from the objectivity of the article. And (having never heard luton before this article, let alone been there), i will accept what you say about the population.

nevertheless, the article does provide insights that are ignored by too many pakistanis - e.g., notably the ``blame game`` that I refer to in my post #45 below. Thus (to use the example of Omar Sheikh there), UK in fact provided Sheikh with opportunities (notably admission to a top notch university) that he would almost certainly not have received if his father had not migrated to UK (in Pakistan, he would have probably grown up to be a tailor master like his father, making false promises to begum sahibs to deliver their shalwar kameez). One can either ignore this and continue the ``blame game`` of unfairly blaming UK for not providing opportunities. Or one can try to find an explanation in what is written in the article that I quoted earlier: ``Religion was forced upon them like a spoonful of horrible medicine. They swallowed it and were now intoxicated with it. The thought of going against the will of their parents never occurred to them because it was a forbidden thought. Almost like a thought crime, almost... Orwellesque. ``

Thus, while acknowledging the biases and incorrect generalizations apparent in this article, I would be interested in what you think of the ``Omar Sheikh Syndrome`` and how well the underlying reasons are provided by the above quote on ``religious intoxication`` combined with the ``blame game`` .

Tahmed:

Re: # 62

I agree with you on the plight of Pakistanis brought about by ourselves.

I remember reading a very nice article by a British writer in Khaleej Times magazine. She had traveled throughout European countries and Asian subcontinent and had a very dissecting view of the situation. According to her, Pakistanis and Bangla Deshy youths are living a miserable life in Europe, and especially Britain, because of their parents. The parents migrated to these countries in the 50s and 60s and are frozen in that time capsule. According to her, the parent generation does not realize that the societies they came from have developed and are no longer frozen in the 60s.

Therefore, when I visited UK last year, I found that my cousins were actually prohibiting their children from going to a rock concerts. I told them that was totally unwarranted, because back in Pakistan, girls and boys of their (my cousin’s) children ages attend musical concerts and eat at American franchise outlets.

‘But that is haram’, came the reply.

Pakistanis need to be a bit more confident of ourselves. We need to go out, meet natives and intermingle with them a bit more on their turf. These days, being a Muslim is actually to our advantage in introducing to the natives. They want to know us much more than the other way round.

tahmed

``Turkish`s brother Bobby picked me up and we headed for Luton, an experience I will never forget. They were everywhere. Infesting the city. They had taken over like a virus. Pakis had conquered Luton. Downtown Luton could be easily mistaken for Kotli or Mirpur or even Muzzafarabad.``

how can pakistanis who are less than 10% of luton`s population take over, think about it.
i visit luton often you hardly see any pakistanis in downtown until you go into their specific enclave.

aslam and theo, please post your views.. abigail has promised hers. i checked out some images of Luton, and they looked just fine.

aslam: i dont see anything ``fake`` in this article. Does it provide a comprehensive view of the situation - of course not. But then, even Einstein himself struggled to come up with a comprehensive Theory of Everything and failed.

#56 by TheoVanGogh
thanks for those statistics.

i was the first one to point out this guy is fake, i don`t think has set foot in luton either.

one thing i am amazed with is how gulliable the chowk crowd is, they will believe anything.

pardon me if i am wrong but i dont think immigrant visas require immigrants to
only produce model off springs who live their lives as bheegi billis. therefore
its no big deal if a few second generation immigrants turn out to be gunday
undays because hey, thats what the good lord intended i.e. not every second
generation immigrant can become an engineer or a doctor and that few of them
might even turn to out to be losers. other immigrants dont have to go on a guilt
trip over the actions of fellow immigrants of the same background because that
would be stupid - akin to asking every british or american visitor to pak to
justify the action of their governments in middle east.

furthermore, the behaviour of the youths described above, that seems pretty tame
by the standards of british youth. in fact you could argue that the lifestyle described above is milder form of the gora ``yob culture`` which is regarded by the british as a huge menace to the society. so in this respect, you can argue these immigrants have adapted all to well to the british society.

also the onus of integrating immigrants falls on to the majority communnity - goras in this case who have generally not done a good job of it be it uk goras or american goras. when i was in college in the u.s. it was fascinating to observe the lack of social interaction between the kulloos and the goras. most kaalas would eat together on separate tables and in fact had their own separate section in the cafeteria. and the kaalas who hung out with the goras were generally ostracised by the kaala community. also the kaalas and goras at work also did not interact much outside work. i would imagine things are no different in the u.k.

ultimately i would argue, behaviour of minority community has lot to do with the actions of majority community. this is however not to argue for state intervention or for forced multi-culturalism because you cant force different groups to like each other. by the same token, you cant expect minority community to be whiter than white and its idiotic to hold the whole community responsible for the behaviour of individuals.

Everybody

Please take Mr Said`s perceptions with a pinch of salt as you would the writings of anyone who landed in your home town in India, Pakistan, America or Canada and spent a couple of days with a small group of people. As an example of his cluelessness, I point out to you the following from his piece:

``It wasn`t a big town, probably only 400,000 people out of which 90% were Pakis.``

Actually, the 2001 Census informs us that the population of Luton is 184,371 and that the population of Luton is 59.6% Christian, 14.6% Muslim, and the remainder made up of Hindu, Sikh, and Jewish communities.

So, if this writer can more than DOUBLE the population of the town and increase the Pakistani population of Luton by SEVEN - then I will leave it to your imagination what kind of exagerration he makes in the subjective experience of the lives lead by Pakistanis in Luton - when his facts are so basically laughably stupid and wrong, how much his impulse to exagerrate the rest of it is.

Just something that all those blinded by the supposed authenticity and reportage of this account should bear in mind when you read of an American`s short stay experience with a small group of people - please do bear in mind this when forming your judgments.

Census information taken from here:

http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media%20Library/Pdf/Environment%20%26%20regeneration/Planning/Census/Demography%20theme%20paper.pdf

masadi: you want me to show you where your post is idiotic. Fair enough.

you write: ``The real blame lies not with the individuals who suffer the effects but on the powers that be, the elite whose arrangements, the economic and political institutions help maintain these structures and the resulting exclusion. ``

This ``blame game`` takes away responsibility from the individual to do something to help himself - since it takes the easy way out of blaming the ``system`` or the ``elites``. Result: the individual does not feel responsible for improving his condition and thus remains where he is - the underclass. This kind of thinking produces losers like omar sheikh - where he walked away from the opportunity to attend a world reknowned university (London School of Economics) to become a kidnapper of innocent tourists in India and the brutal killer of the father of an unborn child who made the mistake of trusting his security to him.

#43 by masadi on December 6, 2005 5:11pm PT


Institutionalized racism, and the resulting social exclusion leads to an ``oppositional`` social structure for the oppressed.


Indians and Chinese are doing very well in the UK...LN Mittal is the richest man in Europe(or one of the richest)...

That pretty much blows your theory out of the water...

The problem is with the ummah homies...they`re dead last by almost all measures and yet what`s their primary issue when they vote for georgie ``never met a jihadi i didn`t like`` galloway``: the war in iraq, palestine and occupied Kashmir..

His party is called respect..you`d think respect would come from improving the conditions of the pakis in the UK, but no...For pakis in the UK, respect means going against the kaffir US in iraq or the kaffir indians in occupied Kashmir

#48 by anil on December 6, 2005 10:54pm PT


As an aside, she mentioned that these kids were very passionate about liberating Kashmir, and used to visit Pakistan and PoK.


No shit..!!

Drinking merlot doesn`t extinguish the jihadi flame in pakis...drinking hemlock does..

jang

``It wasn`t a big town, probably only 400,000 people out of which 90% were Pakis.``

according to uk gov statistics the total population of luton is 185000, and pakistanis are only 9% of that. that doesn`t make it a ghetto by any stretch of imagination.

more later

abskii

There have been some muted reports of under-age girls being groomed for sex. Anywhere near your area?

#35 by Urstruly

[The program would work much better if along with immigrants, those who are already citizens are tested on what they know about Sallauddin.]

Why should and why would the natives/citizens care to know about Salahuddin? It`s not as if they are migrating with their begging bowls to Arab lands. You must have your head examined.

#20 by Urstruly on December 6, 2005 11:39am PT

[It is a great injustice to even suggest that the cause for the dilapidated state of colored people in Europe is because of the inferior genetic make up of those people, or religion, or race, or color of those people. That forms the very basis of the institutionization of the dicrimination. It is the alibi of the dominant people, hiding behind which they try to get away.]

Aww, poor you. That`s exactly how a non-Muslim feels in a Muslim country. The reason why a Yousuf Youhana becomes Mohammad Yousuf.

#45, care to show me what`s ``idiotic`` in my post. If not, spare me your narrow minded provincialism.

#46 you said and I quote ``In Luton’s case, I believe the problem is the elders’ fear of living in an alien environment, their inability to adapt, their stubborn clinging to their past, their using religion as an escape and an excuse to make them feel better and shoving it down their children’s throats to satisfy their psychological needs are the culprit. It’s pure psychology that drives them, and their children are the victims. It’s a vicious cycle. ``

This is exactly what it is not. You are confusing a public issue with personal trouble of individual character, sort of a ``culture of poverty`` type of argument. Take the example of marriage: Inside a marital relationship, personal problems might exist between the couple which may lead to divorce, but when almost half of all marriages attempted end in divorce in a society, it has to do with the social institution of marriage and family, how it is changing and how other institutions are affecting or causing such change, in short it is a issue involving social structure.

Similarly the case with the ghetto is that regardless of individual character, for the vast majority there will be no escape simply because the structure created therein by the external society keeps them there. For public/social issues, individual solutions don`t work, we need a change in the social structure and that will not happen until the structure that perpetuates racism exists. Read #43 for fuller discription.

masadi: you sound like an idiot. you should fit right in here on chowk. :-)

Very well written

Institutionalized racism, and the resulting social exclusion leads to an ``oppositional`` social structure for the oppressed. In this case the Pakistanis in the UK in the US case the African Americans, in the France case, the Arabs; these structures, once created perpetuate themselves. The real blame lies not with the individuals who suffer the effects but on the powers that be, the elite whose arrangements, the economic and political institutions help maintain these structures and the resulting exclusion.

Expand this to a larger level and we see why there are a few, almost totally racially exclusive-as far as majority population goes- developed countries (before Japan entered the group recently, and modern Japan is a US satellite, they were totally white majority countries) within a sea of underdevelopment. This arrangement is kept in place by the US elite, who dominate the world system; racial oppression is an important tool in their world-view. You cannot blame religion or culture for the suffering of the ghetto dwellers either, for regardless of what religion they believe in or what culture they live by, the social status of the aggregates (not talking about individuals here) perpetuates generation after generation, and their condition regardless of who they are stays the same. The only thing that can fix these conditions is altering the social structure, but doing that will cut the exclusive privilage of the US elite so they do their utmost to keep the superior subordinate relationship going generation after generation. Human suffering, lost opportunities, shattered hopes and wasted talent is of no consequence to them- what matters is power and wealth. As recent empirical evidence of that look at what they did with Iraq, one of the most well developed countries of the middle east in the 1970s, now little different than a ghetto

Here is an article, http://www.geocities.com/globalghetto

#36 by Raw_Dust

well, the pakistani 1-st gen actually did OK in good-ol UK running their fish-n-chips shops, or working in the mills. the article is about 2-nd gen guys. the schools in the US kind of enforce americanism (citizenship) from hot-dogs in the cafeteria to baseball to a heavy OD of american history (for the book-minded).

also interesting is to exlore the contribution of the mother-ship. the political and other enviroment of the mother ship must have some influence since the older-gen is so stuck in the old-country.

mr. Said, I must say that I read your article with fascination and a smile. Your writing style is both honest and entertaining.
I live in Luton, and some of your observations are quite close to the bone! I see/hear a lot of british-asians complaining about being treated differently, but shunning strangers out with the vigour one would save for the nerd at school. During my shopping trips to the famous Bury Park (where I nearly always have some old man decide i`m his new best friend), I tend to see certain types of people............

.......although I doubt I have your wit, maybe I should write on a westerner`s view of british-asians! And also on Kashmiris in their natural environment.......

#32 by delhiwala
``Why is Chowk UP giving error message on connecting?``

Chowk UP has installed a chootiya filter. Sorry.

Urstruly:
Why in the first place, believing muslims should immigrate to Dar-ul-Harab? What is the Sharaee answer and what is the islamic ethic has to say about these young muslim workers coming in to earn and pay taxes to a system that is using that Ush`r/tax partially to run bombing campaigns and commit war crimes against hapless muslims around the globe?


What does that say about specifically You, how are you going to answer Allah mian and the dead victims of these bombs (funded by your tax-dollars) on the judgement day? You hoping these muslim men women and children will forgive you on that day?

jang:
it seems this freewheeling welfare system is just too open-ended for abuse. i mean if we discount the african american situation (which is totally unique and separate from fobs) out of the picture for a second, then all new immigrants regardless of their religion do prosper with time in usa. pakistanis without higher education background are successfully running gas stations and further expanding just like turks and greeks are into diner businesses. (purely from observation).

is there a pakistani ghetto or algerian ghetto etc. within usa? i dont think so.

zarrar sahib:
good article although the tone got condescending at points and could have been done away with.

the english sarkar have recognized the issue and have started applying amrikan solution. now they insist on passing a citizenship exam like the one you take in the US..so soon you will have to know about Sir Arthur and not just Sallauddin.

Re: # 34 Jang

The program would work much better if along with immigrants, those who are already citizens are tested on what they know about Sallauddin.

Why is Chowk UP giving error message on connecting?

It’s as disturbing as it is fascinating...to read about your compatriots...a world I have not known nor probably would ever know. It’s a script for a Hollywood movie.

This article should be made available to the press in England. It’s a must read for the England’s policy makers.

Thank you, Zarrar, for a good read.

#23 by Urstruly on December 6, 2005 11:52am PT


the fact that the vast majority of the rioters, all the subway bombers, the people who blew up the madrid trains, people who were arrested for terrorism in the UK and the dude who killed theo van ghogh were all from the religion of peace isn`t relevant...


Right...

Dutch terrorism trial opens in confusion as witness stays silent

The trial of 14 Muslim men accused of plotting to murder Dutch politicians began in confusion, when the first witness refused to testify - or even give her name.

They were heard speaking in tapped telephone conversations about slaying non-believers like sacrificial lambs. Several of them trained in Pakistan to carry out armed attacks, prosecutors said.

Re: # 27

You make a very compelling case. I think Muslims should be discriminated because of their religion.

strangley, i think of the movie full monty

I live just half an hr drive away from Luton...have visited the town only once.Had heard that there are lot of Pakistanis in Luton, but was not aware of what the writer has depicted. There seems to be fair amount of imagination involved and some `negative` aspects seem to have got exaggerated.

The welfare system is reinforcing the laziness in lot of people in UK,majority of whom are locals.It looks like a defence mechanism against internal threats to the socio-political/economical system,which is bound to crumble,because the working middle class is quite sore about it and UK govt. has already started looking for ways of cutting down the expences on welfare benefits.

But a very well written article;congrats!!

Yo!!!! you ``newly liberated `` low hangin indie.All this paki and kashmiri bashing isn`t going to make you apple of Yank`s eyes.Earth hasn`t produced greater ``chamchas`` (``ball lickers`` is the right slang) than you miserable indians ``the nouveau riche`` of South Asia.We Pakis are much much better when it comes to ``intellectual brilliance`` and ``aesthetics``.Have you forgotten your own Chandni chowks, Mumbai,calcutta ghettos or Chaar Minaars.
Wherever their is this majority vs minority or ethnic clashes ``natural alliances`` are born as a result coz people feel their identities or cultures and sometimes their dignities threatned.Examples are this ``muslim brotherhoods`` among European immigrants(though they are from different backgrounds like arabs,afroasians and brownies like Indo-pak), the so called Desi cultures or High caste, Low caste hocus pocus in India.
Pheewwwww!!!!!! Difficult job this ``Fire fighting``

Word of the day ``Hobson`s choice``.No compromise on standards.

Adieu

I think authour comes from `wanabe elite class of Pakistan` , who does think within a box and thinks words like `Paki` , `Villagers` etc.. make him cool ..
I come to England when I was 5 , my parents belongs to Dadyal , Azad Kashmir , Pakistan .

I hate when people starts generalize , Zarar wrote
`Laziness is inbred in Pakistanis` , although I think
we ( Pakistanis , Asians ) are one of the most hard working
people ( obviously , rich and elite in Pakistan and everywhere
can be easy but middle class and poor classes can not afford to
be) .
The impression , I am getting that if someone who wears a
shalwar kameez or kurta is backward and living in a stone age
while a person wearing wearing a suit is civilized and modern
( obviously , Karaar and like minded brothers, are confused and
ashamed of there own culture and religion ; people who are too impressed
with `gorays` )
Government Walfare Assumption ,
Karrar wrote `It was normal for Pakis to be on welfare` , could you
prove it ? I don`t know if authour knows how benefir system works ?
there`s income support, child benefits, dss, state pension ; we in
the family owns couple of super markets ( yes dukan walas to you ,
not a noble proffesion to you Karachi,Lahoire,Islamabad Elite Class )
what I had seen is English people are on benefits and not many Asians ,
Pakistanis . The old ( people who are 6o and above ) automatically gets
state pension ( which is not a benefit ) , the young ( very few in numbers )
get income support which is less then 3o pounds a week . Bottomline is
English people ( bigger percentage of Egnlish people ) are on benefits
then Asians ( specially Pakistanis , I only represents Pakistani British ) .
I agree that lot of Pakistani youths are involved in drugs and street crimes,
( best example is of Alum Rock , Birmingham ) and this is because of there parents
which are uneducated but things are getting better . Outside Pakistan and espcially in
a non-Islamic country parents encourages ( and not force ) children to read Quran and
offer prayers which makes them a good human beings ( at most occasions , there are always
good and bad people everywhere ) .
Somehow , authour thinks Karachi, Islamabad, Multan and Lahore is Pakistan and he thinks
everyone had been as lucky as him ( economically and socially ) but things are different
he has to accept that Urban Pakistan represents a few percentage of Pakistani whereas ,
Rural Pakistan is where majority of Pakistani lives.
Our parents migrated abroad ( UK ) because of economical reasons and yes they may look
uncultured to people from Karachi or Islamabad but they contribute more to Pakistan and
Azad Kashmir then many elite Pakistanis living in Pakistan . And once they die , they want to
be buried in Pakistan because they love there land .
a message to my brother who wrote this article , ` brother, don`t think inside a box widen your
thinking and yes, stop saying ` Paki ` its not cool `

#20 by Urstruly on December 6, 2005 11:39am PT


What caused this change in thinking is the recent ghetto riots in France, Germany, Belgium and Holland. England


What caused muslims to riot in France, kill Theo Van Ghogh in Holland, blow up subways in England etc etc...

Re: # 21

I knew it that Lalloo in the box will pop his head first. But connecting subway bombings and theo thing to riots in France is just pure hogwash. Ironically, a considerable number of rioters in France are Christians and not only that Catholics. That is the reason it gave the most trigger happy American propagandists an itch that they couldn`t attach religion to these riots as much as they wanted to.

Had I read this article a month ago I would have really enjoyed it but now I see it as the reflection of human tragedy. What caused this change in thinking is the recent ghetto riots in France, Germany, Belgium and Holland. England has also a long history of race riots. It has become abundantly clear from French episode that cause for this dilapedated of colored people in general and Muslims in particular is because of the institutionized discrimination, systematic aparthied, and inherent prejudice of the indigenous population. The riots were a reflection of the race riots of America between an apartied black community and a dominant white population, that started in 1917 and still continue until very recently. A couple of years ago Cincinnati was put under Martial Law.

It is a great injustice to even suggest that the cause for the dilapidated state of colored people in Europe is because of the inferior genetic make up of those people, or religion, or race, or color of those people. That forms the very basis of the institutionization of the dicrimination. It is the alibi of the dominant people, hiding behind which they try to get away.

Re: # 20
urstruly - i dont believe the author is making the point that ``the cause for the dilapidated state of colored people in Europe is because of the inferior genetic make up of those people, or religion, or race, or color of those people``.

He is instead saying that these young men make the choices that they make because of their nurture not their nature.

Re: # 30 amrita

Yes and I am making the case that I would have agreed with author (or you) hadn`t the recent riots in France and other countries not taken place. It has raised the awareness as to why the ghettos even exist in the first place.

Re: # 33
i dont dispute the fact that racism exists and that one of the reasons given for it is racial inferiority but i dont see why you would challenge the point the author is making based on that.

Re: # 30

amrita

``these young men make the choices that they make because of their nurture not their nature.``

Ditto. But the question is, how is it remedied?

Re: # 31
godot - when its a case of nurture, its something that needs to be remedied primarily from within. zarrar says that in the person of Turkish he sees a possible solution... young men who might make different choices because they have had the good fortune to see another side to the world than one that was presented to them in childhood. the struggle is to bring that world to the places where they live rather than hope that they can go out or be privileged enuff to go out and discover it for themselves.

and thats where the society in general comes in - and thats the sticking point isnt it? coz what do we mean when we say society? the people in the pub who left when they saw the group of `pakis` [in the epithet sense of it] or the govt which can possibly pass any number of laws about any number of things affecting individual choices but in the end is limited in its ability to actually effect changes in attitude across a spectrum? do we mean the parents who are operating out a fear that the desire to earn a good living is slowly robbing them of their identity and leaving their children as a species of cultural half breeds or do we mean the kids themselves who in spite of their possible frustration at the quality of their life, would still take unkindly to one of their number who did anything different or rebelled? i suppose that the answer would lie somewhere in between but frankly, i dont know.

i`m an indian hindu girl from a privileged background - i can suppose plenty but thats really about it. i`d be interested to know what you think.

Re: # 38

amrita

As you realize, it is a very difficult question to answer: how to remedy the ghetto-ness of those who are stuck in it?

From within is only exception-based. If you noticed, Turkish’s parents were wealthy enough to send their son to America. Not everyone is that privileged in a ghetto. Also, the realization along with a will to change has to be there as well. How many of them are like that in a ghetto?

From society is quite difficult. Individuals like you and I are too busy with our own privileged lives to make an attempt to change the mentality of a huge group. It’s a Herculean task. Their ``own`` society apparently is not capable or they wouldn’t be stuck in the rut for so long and for so many generations.

From the government is probably the only workable option. Government has to implement policies that encourage and train the youngsters for a better life. Shedding and overcoming inherent biases, prejudices, and insecurities have to be a major part of that policy.

In Luton’s case, I believe the problem is the elders’ fear of living in an alien environment, their inability to adapt, their stubborn clinging to their past, their using religion as an escape and an excuse to make them feel better and shoving it down their children’s throats to satisfy thei