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My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Firstly , this is 2004 , not 1947/48/61/71 . A lot has changed. India is today stronger than ever before. India richer than ever before (PPP GDP worth $3trillion and growing at 8% p.a.). The `Indian identity` is stronger than ever before.


So ultimately , India is holding on and will continue to hold on to Kashmir because India CAN.

India broke Pakistan into 2 equal parts because India COULD.

China cannot invade India (Romair`s logic) because China can`t (and doesn`t really want to.)

Pakistan cannot do to India what India did to Pakistan (in 1971) because Pakistan CAN`T. Certainly not because of lack of trying or ambition.

Kashmiri separatists can never gain independence because they CAN`T. Not for the want of trying. India far too powerful.

The whole Kashmir thing was basically a Pakistani strategy to `Bleed India through a thousand cuts`. It was a masterplan to encourage a million mutinies and separatist movements all over India , and to ultimately lead to the break-up of India.

It (Kashmir Separatist movement) began in 1989.

In the beginning , the muslim Kashmiris caught India by surprise by the sheer force of the violence they unleashed. Trained and armed by Paksitan , the Kashmiri muslims killed or raoped every kufr they could lay their eyes on. Hindu Kashmiris were murdered , raped , threatened as a part of a process to completely cleanse Kashmir of all Kufr elements.

So soon , all hindu Kashmiris (a million or so) fled Kashmir , giving the separatists a field day. (So basically , its not `Kashmiri separatism ` , its more like `Kashmiri Islamist Separatist Movement` , completely devoid of any Kufr element. ).


It was then Indian government reacted. Indian Army wen`t down on the terrorists (freedon fighters to some) like a tonne of bricks. The fury of the Indian Army was so intense that by 1995-96 , most local Kashmiri muslim youth had given up the gun . So Pakistan now began to send taliban soldiers as well as its own citizens as `freedom fighters`.

By 2003 , most terrorists (`freedom fighters`/jehadi whatever) were basically Pakistani citizens , basically unemployed and unemployable poor madrasa trained Pakistani youth lured by the concept of 72 virgins & a few thousand rupees.

If indeed local Kashmiris don`t take up arms against India anymore (or a non-violent separatist movement , as Vertex suggests) , its more a matter of impotence against the the might of the Indian nation than a matter of choice. They take up arms , they will be killed. Its not 1989 , its 2004.

Also , `Bleed India` masterplan had the objective of stunting India`s growth economically by forcing it to concentrate its resources in Kashmir.

Nothing of the sort happened. Indian economy has been enjoying its best years since then. Because of 1991 economic reforms , Indian economy has been growing at an avg. of 6-7% p.a. Poverty in India has reduced from 41% of population in 1990 to the present 23% , inspite of an increase in population of 20% in the same period. Incomes have quadrupled , standard of living improved considerably , infrastructure built , a whole new ICE (information, communication, entertainment) sector being born , giving employment to millions and increasing national revenue by billions ...shifting the focus of the economy from agriculture to services...

Whole lot of things have happened since 1989....

Indian per capita is today higher than Pak`s per capita . According to UNDP , iNDIA`S ppp per capita is 2980$ compared to Pak`s 1940$.


India ranks higher than Pak in the human development index stakes.

23%(42% in 1990) of Indians live below poverty compared to 36% Pakistanis(20% in 1990)

The avg. Indian today is better off than the avg. Pakistani.

So a lot has happened since 1989.

Kashmir still pretty much belongs to India. Separatist movements active then - Punjab /North East , are today either non-existant or ineffectual.

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My point is , Pakistanis and Kashmir Islamist Separatists couldn`t get what they wanted by force , even when they were at their strongest and India at its weakest.

If they now believe they are gonna succeed what they couldn`t get before by their violent means , on a negotiating table , against a much stronger , richer , and a much more confidant India - they are totally mistaken.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Romair , my man , there is only one law that matters. Might is Right. No justification required. Nobody is right or wrong. There are shades or rights and wrongs in everything. But only thing that is Right is Might. Survival of the Fittest.

.............


However , you make another of your profound comments. :
`` Kashmir is occupied territory. It is only recognized by India as a part of India. By no one else. Specifically not by Kashmris``

A. India is the only thing that matters here. If Indians see Kashmir as a part of its territory , there is nothing anybody can do about it. Why ? India far stronger than the forces wanting to separate Kashmir from it.

B. A million or so hindu Kashmiris will not agree with your comment that Kashmiris do not consider Kashmir to be a part of India. Obviously , the Islamist fascist Kashmiris who carried out one of the biggest ethnic cleansing in recent history by cleansing the Valley of all Kufr elements will agree with you.

So you need to be more specific.

To say ``Kashmiris do not consider Kashmir to be a part of India`` would be factually incorrect.

To say Kufr Hating fascist Kashmiri Islamic fundamentalists do not consider Kashmir to be a part of India will be more accurate.


(Of course , nobody cares what you Pakis think , so I request you to kindly desist from mentioning your likes and dislikes.)

...............


The reason Kashmir will always continue to be a part of India is because the only force that wants or tries to separate Kashmir from India , is Pakistan , which sadly is not even remotely strong enough to carry out its goal , as has been proven so far.

So that brings us back to the Might is Right theory.

(Moral arguments are no good here. Unless you believe the kashmiri muslims have more of a moral right by making Kashmir Valley exclusively Islamic by carrying out violent ethnic cleansing of hindu Kashmiris or those Kashmiris who wish to be a part of India . Morally , such people should not be allowed to succeed . And inshallah , they cannot ever succeed in their mission because they do have the might to do so.)


But if you think you can change things by the force of your arguments and your (hehe) logic ,on some obscure internet forum , goodluck to you....(applies to Vertex also..).

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Since Vertex Mian claims to be Indian , and says there are indeed a few Indians out there who want Kashmir to separate from India , and that the only people who do not wish to honour the wishes of the Kashmiri separarists are the RSS/VHP/BJP types...

I repeat the offer made by Stuka initially (which I believe should be India`s official position on the Kashmir issue).

I myself would accept Kashmiri independence (not support it) if a majority of my fellow Indians decide that we are better of without Kashmir. But the key is that it is the majority of the country rather then one specific region which would decide that. I believe that is consistent with the view United States took during the civil war as well.

Since India is a democracy , lets decide the issue democratically and peacefully. But only Indian citizens will decide.

It doesn`t matter what Pakis think or anybody else thinks , its an Indian matter , and it only matters what Indians think.

Another Forgotten Hero of Pakistan Veeresh bhai , with ref. to the Nazi Baker issue ,

you are confusing Omar Quraishi with Romair. It was Romair who brought up the matter of Baker and his views on Kashmir , (which undoubtedly ,is the Gospel of the Lord , to our Subedar Clueless).

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Where did Vertex Mian run away ?

You didn`t answer my question Vertex. Why should India honor the aspirations of fanatical fascists that your Kashmiri separatists are ?

If there should indeed be a vote on the status of Kashmir , as Stuka said (btw -Stuka maan- that was brilliant!! Wish I had thought of that first !! Maan gaye ustad...) >>

``I myself would accept Kashmiri independence (not support it) if a majority of my fellow Indians decide that we are better of without Kashmir. But the key is that it is the majority of the country rather then one specific region which would decide that. I believe that is consistent with the view United States took during the civil war as well. ``

What do you say to that Vertex ? You ask so smugly for India to prove its a democratic country and honour the aspirations of the `people of Kashmir` , knowing very well that these `people of Kashmir` are basically religious fanatic muslims who are responsible for one of the biggest ethnic cleansing in recent history by chasing away all the hindu kashmiris out of Kashmir...

So India should prove its not a fascist state by honoring the aspirations of obscurantist religious fascists according to you.


Lets have a real peblicite. Let the people of India vote. Not just fascist islamists ethnic cleansers.

Why just that, since many say Kashmir is an issue between Indian and Pakistan , and few others say it is a trilateral issue with Kashmiri fanatic separarists forming the 3rd party , let everybody -Indians , Pakistanis and also your Kashmiri separatists vote.

Not just for the status of our Kashmir (Indian Occupied Kashmir (IOK) to you) , but also the status of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK) -(Azad Kashmir to you).

The peblicite should be for the status of the whole of the Kashmir region , both sides of LOC included. Who should it go to ?
A.Independence.
B. Pakistan
C.India.

Let the people of the subcontinent decide. Indians , Pakistanis as well as Kashmiri separatists. What do you say ?

A Sign of Things To Come? The famous Stuka of Chowk had a brainwave on some other thread which I think should be shared here...

``I myself would accept Kashmiri independence (not support it) if a majority of my fellow Indians decide that we are better of without Kashmir. But the key is that it is the majority of the country rather then one specific region which would decide that. I believe that is consistent with the view United States took during the civil war as well.``

Yo to that !!!

That should be India`s official position. Somebody contact the PMO or something.

A Sign of Things To Come? Veeresh bhai , you were in the Indian Army ?

You should have mentioned that before sirji ...

I sincerely apologise if I offended you in anyway. Have all the respect in the world for our soldiers.

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Dost-Mittar ,

Not bad at all...

I was wrong to take you and Veeresh bhai as naive wagah-border-candle-carrying-types. Both of you are obviously a lot smarter than that.

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Romair (Subedar Clueless) .

I have 3 words for you - Shut Up. Creep.

Train to Pakistan 2004: The Journey Outbound Shridar Mamu , hope this helps. >>

WSJ COMMENTARY
IS INDIA SHINING? Gurcharan Das

NEW DELHI -- Next Monday, India`s general elections -- which began on April 20 -- will finally conclude. In an exercise that was both staggered and staggering, 670 million Indians will have had the opportunity to vote at 700,000 polling booths via 1.1 million voting machines -- with all this, the greatest democratic show on earth, supervised by 5.5 million state officials.

But there is another impressive number this time around. The economy has grown at 8.1% in 2003 -- 10.3% in the last quarter, surpassing China for the first time -- and not surprisingly, the ruling National Democratic Alliance, led by the nationalist Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP), capitalized on this feel-good factor with a highly successful ``India Shining`` ad campaign. The opposition Congress Party retorted with ``India Whining,`` and as if to prove it my mother phoned to say, ``How is India shining when my house is in darkness because of a power cut this evening?``

Whether India is shining or whining, what makes this election different is a shift in rhetoric from religion and caste to the economy. Amidst the usual scramble for seats and alliances, politicians in urban constituencies have been forced to learn Economics 101 in order to debate economic reform with an increasingly sophisticated urban voter. The stridency of Hindu nationalism seems to have died, and even dark talk of Congress leader Sonia Gandhi`s Italian origins lacks conviction. The turning point was last December, when four major state elections were decided on economic issues -- much to everyone`s surprise. Thus the slogan ``Bijli, Sadak, Pani`` or ``Electricity, Roads, Water`` has entered the political lexicon, having replaced ``Mandir, Masjid, Mandal`` or ``Temple, Mosque, Caste.`` If this is an enduring trend, then we may be looking at the most dramatic change in the Indian political mindset in 50 years.

The BJP claims that its policies are responsible for the fine economic performance and the changed mood; Congress argues that the economy grew faster under its man, Narasimha Rao, who was prime minister in the `90s. Both are right (and wrong). The reality is that India, in a sense, has been shining for over two decades, its GDP having grown at an average annual 6% real rate, making it one of the fastest growing major economies in the world over a 23-year period. While its growth is slower than China`s, it is almost double the Indian growth rate of the previous 30 years, and double the rate at which the West created its Industrial Revolution. More recently, India`s population growth has also begun to slow; in 1998 it was down to 1.7%, compared to a historic 2.2% growth rate. And literacy has begun to climb -- it reached 65% in 2000 compared to 52% in 1990, with the biggest gains among women and in backward states. Almost 170 million Indians have risen out of destitution since 1980 as the poverty ratio has declined to 26%. Finally, India may have at last found its competitive advantage in its booming software and business process outsourcing services to the world.

If its economy continues to grow at this rate for the next few decades -- and there is no reason why it should not -- then a majority in the south, west and northwest should be middle class by 2025. The poorer Eastern states should get there by 2050. Had India`s GDP growth continued at the pre-1980 level, Indian incomes would only have reached American per-capita income levels by 2250; but at the current rate India will reach it by 2066. It is thus increasingly possible to believe that India will finally be able to conquer its age-old worry over want and hunger.

The amazing thing is that all this growth is happening alongside the most appalling governance. In the midst of a booming private economy, Indians despair over the simplest public goods -- good behavior from the cop on the beat, honest justice from the lower judiciary, or for a government schoolteacher to actually show up in a village school in Bihar. Hence, it is the public sphere that is ``whining.`` So, also are the unreformed sectors of the economy, such as electric power. The contrast between power and telecom is obvious to everyone. After a successful reform program, India is in the midst of a telecom revolution that is as profound as China`s. Its telephones have grown from five million in 1990 to 60 million today and they are growing by two million a month. Yet power reforms have failed, and no wonder my mother whines about power cuts. (Like most Indians, however, she is not aware that legal reform has now set the stage for a similar power revolution over the next five years.)

More and more Indians hold ideology responsible for their past economic failures rather than poor management. They blame Nehru`s and Indira Gandhi`s socialism without realizing that even that socialism could have delivered more and did not have to degenerate into ``License Raj.`` It is this failure of quotidian implementation that makes institutions weak. Indians admire their army, the Supreme Court, Reserve Bank and the Election Commission. (Curiously, except for the Election Commission, these are the institutions that Americans admire most in their country.) So they know it is possible for India to have good institutions, and that India will not truly shine unless there is a vigorous reform of institutions.

It is easier to explain India`s economic rise after 1991, when Mr. Rao`s government opened the economy, dismantled controls, lowered tariffs and taxes and broke public-sector monopolies. And the economy responded with three years of 7.5% growth. But how does one explain the jump in the `80s? And here Indians don`t give enough credit to Rajiv Gandhi. Although modest, his reforms seem to have had an impact. The real miracle, however, is that all the governments after Mr. Rao`s continued the reforms, albeit in a slow manner. Yet in spite of an elephantine pace of reform, India is one of the fastest growing economies in the world. So the lesson is that if you consistently reform in one direction in a democracy, it adds up. This ``adding up`` has enhanced confidence, which is at the heart of ``India shining.``

Where has this self-assuredness come from? I traveled widely across India in 1995 and discovered that the nation`s mindset had changed in the `90s. Many Indian minds had become decolonized. This mental liberation is a powerful force in national regeneration. A changed attitude to English illustrates the new mindset. Ever since the British left we have heard constant complaining against the English language, and then in the `90s it suddenly disappeared. Quietly, without ceremony, English became one of the Indian languages. English lost its colonial stigma, oddly enough, around the time that the Hindu nationalists came to power. Hindi-language protagonists lost steam because they lost their convictions -- their own children wanted to learn English. Based on present trends, India will become the largest English-speaking nation in the world by 2010, overtaking the U.S.

When I was growing up, it mattered how you spoke; you could speak rubbish but you had to do it with the right accent. Today, young Indians in the new middle class think of English as a skill, like Windows. This is why a confident ``Hinglish`` (Hindi mixed with English) is spreading, encouraged by flourishing private TV channels and supported by advertisers.

A new cultural confidence has emerged. Perhaps, it is due to the reforms, which have been reducing the intrusive power of the state, making Indians more self-reliant. Pop stars like Daler Mehndi display an exuberant nonchalance, as do the young Bollywood heroes. So do the fiction writers in English, the fashion designers, the beauty queens and the cricket stars. Indians seem to have lost their hypocrisy toward making money and getting rich.

Last month, Kiran Mazumdar became the richest woman in India when her biotechnology company went public and her personal net worth crossed $500 million. To some Indians this is the true shining India, and they point to the many multinationals that have set up R&D centers in India in recent years, including GE, Microsoft, IBM, Texas Instruments, Cisco, Intel, General Motors, and Motorola. Supplementing them are Indian companies like Wipro and Infosys, both with a billion dollars in sales, who provide customers with R&D services. Some Indians attribute the explosive growth in R&D labs to their Brahminical heritage, arguing that they are conceptual people and that the knowledge age plays to their advantage. They explain that Indians have wrestled with the abstract concepts of the Upanishads for 3,000 years.

* * *
We are past the halfway mark in the election, and the exit polls seem to suggest that the ruling BJP coalition is likely to win by a narrower margin than expected earlier. If these polls turn out to be right, it will mean that the winning side will have to horse-trade to bring in coalition partners. This will weaken the government and diminish its ability to continue the reforms. That might slow the rate of growth.

The most popular word in the Indian election lexicon is ``anti-incumbency,`` and this awkward word is being used to explain why the voter is not keen to return the ruling party with a bigger majority, especially at a time when the economy is shining. This, I think, goes back to poor governance on the ground. Despite strong growth, Indians are unwilling to forgive bad governance and this is the weapon they use against incumbent politicians. They don`t re-elect them.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Lol..finally I get it. Vertex wants India to prove its democratic credentials by giving into the demands and aspirations of those Kashmiri muslim separatists - people who killed , raped , pillaged and chased away half a million fellow Kashmiris just because they happened to be hindu...

So to prove India is not a fascist state ,India should now care about the aspirations of the same murderers , rapists , terrorists - all ordinary Kashmiri muslims , mind you - who carried out one of the biggest ethnic cleansings in recent history.

There are half a million or so homeless Kashmiri Pandits scattered all over India. All chased away by the muslims of Kashmir (whose aspirations you care so much about). They have lost land , savings , ancestral property everything. Formerly well-to-do people have become destitutes. There are many Kashmiri Pandit refugee camps all over India , particualrly in Delhi.

Go to a Kashmiri Pandit refugee camp in Delhi and tell them about how India should `Strike the balance. This is a question of maturity, not nationality`.

All I know is , we should treat these people (Kashmiri separatists) the same way as they treated the Kashmiri Pandits.

If there are indeed people within India who do not agree with that , come out in the open , raise your hand and say so.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! ``this guy is not being roasted for being a Muslim. He is being roasted for going against his country`s legal position on its integral part. ``

Exactly.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Vertex ...

If its ugly nationalism , so be it. USA does it . China does it. India does (should do) it as well.


I repeat - My country - Right or Wrong. No justification required.

Again , I repeat , you don`t agree with that ? What are you gonna do about it ?

You think Indian muslims (who you claim to represent) are not okay with that ? What are they gonna do about it ? Do something , okay ...dont just say you dont like it ..do something..

Then we will see what we can do to you...



Deep down , you cannot even fathom the depth of hatred I (and other Indians) have for those like you.

Changing World Order: India’s Response My Country - Right or Wrong.

As long as Indians don`t understand this concept , they ain`t getting anywhere.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Vertex ,

That `whatever part of it` was deliberate.

My country - right or wrong. Whether this `Kashmir` cause of yours is just or not is immaterial to us Indians. I dont think most Indians see this as jingosim , but rather as survival. What is ours NOW , will remain ours. Doesn`t matter whether its right or wrong , or what was the case in 1947 or 1367 or whatever . That is just the way it is. If majority of Indians were not serious about holding on to Kashmir , hell we would have lost it in 1989-93 period itself - which was when militancy was mainly carried out by locals and was at its highest. Its all about power. India has the power to hold on to Kashmir. Pakistan/local Kashmiris do not have the power to succeed against India. And thats what matters. Right or wrong -immaterial. (Sigh..So much India can learn from US...)

If you dont like it , what are you gonna do about it ? Cry yourself stupid in internet forums ? Okay...

(I can argue about how Kashmiri muslims carried out one of the biggest ethnic cleansing in history by threatening and throwing out the hindu pandits etc. - but morality is immaterial when it comes to national stakes. National interests are paramount. Doesn`t matter whether those people in Kashmir valley fighting against India are locals or Pakis (although fact is 90% are pakis)...they are fighting our country , and should be treated with the iron fist.)

ps : sorry , but I just do not have the patience to go through your lengthy blah blah blah posts. Just read the first few lines and get the gist of it. If you are hurt that I didn`t respond to the no-doubt excellent points raised by you, I apologise.

A Sign of Things To Come? Romair : ``Howver what scares me is that, and I hope I am anlaysing this incorrectly, even peace-loving Indians seem to want peace on their own terms, i.e. they are unwilling to put any pressure on their govt. to address Pakistan`s concerns. In fact, they almost seem to have an attitude that Pakistanis are wrong to want India to leave its atut-ang stance on Kashmir``

Let me explain...

My country - right or wrong.

Train to Pakistan 2004: The Journey Outbound ``Bihar no more in India??...``

Sadly Bihar still in India last time I checked. Well , guess every family has its share of unwanted relatives.

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Layman , agree with everything you said. But a bigger economy would naturally mean a stronger military , don`t you think...

By the way , just to correct you ,Indian economy is currently 11 times size of Pak`s economy (although India has 7 times the population of Pakistan).

Also , I am more of a kannadbrahm than a gujjubania...not that it matters ...

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No. of cable tv house holds in India = 53 million

No. of house holds in India with atleast one tv set = 85-95 million

(Its increasing rapidly all the time)

Train to Pakistan 2004: The Journey Outbound ``That`s an incrdible number - a 70-80% penetration of cable is rare even in developed countries``

Dadaji maaf karna..bechara gujju se bhool ho gayi..

I happen to live in Bangalore where everybody (including my dad`s driver and the maid) seems to have cable tv (100 channels and counting) at home , and every second person on the street proudly exhibits a cell phone...

So 270 million was a subconscious figure that got stuck with me - perhaps I added a 0 to the number of MTV viewers in India - 27 million. Okay , 25.7 million ...

Anyway , now that I have checked , number of cable tv house holds in urban India is currently around 53 million .

That is still an impressive number. It probably means a population of 270 million has access to cable tv. That is , a quarter of India watches kyon ke saas bhi kabhi bahu thi and MTV Unplugged.

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Hiba : ``Lets face it... you ARE thirld world, my dear, and if you`r pretending that you aren`t, your comment so gives you away``

Was that addressed to me ? (Read my previous post again. I never said India was not a third world country , but suggested what India needs to do to become a first world country, and whats holding India back.)

Okay. There are different shades of `third world` I think. China is third world too. But then , so are Bangladesh and Somalia...

My standard of living for instance (as a middle class Indian in B`lore) probably comes closer to some one in US rather than one in Bihar or Bangladesh.

So to generalise is stupid.

230 million Indians may be living in poverty , but then again, there are 75-100 million who have the same standard of living as anybody in the west , not to mention another 300 million who are catching up fast...

That is the significance of 1991. It freed Indians. More needs to be done . India can very soon graduate from third worldism if it adopts a FREE MARKET in it`s real sense asap.

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Just a thought > China despite being a communist country , opened up its market way back in 1978. Then India had a slightly higher gdp than China. Today China has 2 times India`s gdp.

China is being built by American & Japanese companies. It encourages MNC investment wholeheartedly by offering them a tax-free environment , creating MNC-townships, cheap skilled labor , solid infrastrcuture (also built by MNCs) amongst other things.

There is so much India can learn from China.

Reminded of what Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek said in an interview >

`` Any progress made by China is because of its government , any progress made by India is INSPITE of its government ``

A Sign of Things To Come? Quraishi...

Are you a big shot in Pak`s media stakes ? Doesn`t say much about Pak media then , you know..

May I then request you to kindly respond intelligently (hope I`m not asking for too much) to the article posted by me at #11...

If you find the writer of the piece (one of the most popular Indian internet columnists , an IIT product and a reknown scientist in US ) a bigot , explain why.

Thank you.