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My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! #224,

gee thats a tough one...

let me see...

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! #221 ,

Ballu knows FV best...

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! ``India can deal with Kashmir with an iron fist...but that will not go well with India`s Muslims, and will prove to threaten Indian `unity` more than ever. ``

Vertex , (I`ll keep it simple) thank you for that. Proves my point.

Everytime you open your mouth , you only prove how alienated few Indian muslims (who you claim to represent) are from India , and how they dont reall identify themselves with India.

Kashmir (whatever part is ours) is an integral part of India , and we Indian will do anything to keep it with us , or to hold on to any territory that belongs to us. Now whether that means means fair or foul , doesn`t really matter to us. India is more important. Indeed , thats exactly whats happening.

Now , if a few of my `fellow citizens` don`t agree with that , all I can say is bring it on (purdah ke peeche kyon rahte hon , saamne to ayo jara)....

Other mistake you make is to confuse `Indian nationalism` with `hindu nationalism`. Now since you and the people who you claim to represent have always been so obviously unfamiliar with the concept of Indian nationalism , and have shown nothing but disdain and contempt for `India` and `Indianess` , I dont blame you for your confusion.

The force that is fighting your beloved terrorists in Kashmir is not Shiv Sena or RSS. Its called Indian Army. Indian Army belongs to India , a secular state ,not any religion. Indian soldiers belong to a whole variety of religions , ethnic backround etc. They fight for India. Not for any religion.

The fight to hold on to Kashmir is an Indian fight , not a hindu fight. Those against this fight , are against India. My request - come out in the open.

---

Also , most of us hindus see ourselves as Indians first. Indeed , thats often the only identity we care about.

You talk a lot about `hindutwa forces` - ha ! Thats only an excuse my man. An excuse and an explanation for your total disloyalty and hatred for the country of your birth or residence. RSS/Shiv Sena/VHP etc. were non-entities just 10-12 years back. Are you suggesting people like you were patriotic Indians till then ? No my man , you are not fooling anybody. I`m sure you burst a cracker or two in the 1980s when Pakistan beat India at cricket. (BJP was a 2-seats party then). Similarly , going a little further back ,I`m sure you and your people were mighty angry and depressed when the `Indians` unlawfully and treacherously broke Pakistan into two parts in 1971...


I know your type Vertex Mian...

But I have also realised in course of time that there are many Indian muslims who are as Indian as I am. So I`m just happy those like you (anti-India `Indian` muslims) are pretty much a minority within a minority. At least , I hope so.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Vertex ,

Excerpts from Indian constitution , if you don`t mind..

---

PART IVA

FUNDAMENTAL DUTIES


_45[ 51A. Fundamental Duties.-

It shall be the duty of every citizens of India-

(a) to abide by the Constitution and respect its ideals and institutions, the National Flag and the National Anthem;

(b) to cherish and follow the noble ideals which inspired our national struggle for freedom;

(c) to uphold and protect the sovereignty, unity and integrity of India;

(d) to defend the country and render national service when called upon to do so;

(e) to promote harmony and the spirit of common brotherhood amongst all the people of India transcending religious, linguistic and regional or sectional diversities; to renounce practices derogatory to the dignity of women;

(f) to value and preserve the rich heritage of our composite culture;

(g) to protect and improve the natural environment including forests, lakes, rivers and wild life, and to have compassion for living creatures;

(h) to develop the scientific temper, humanism and the spirit of inquiry and reform;

(i) to safeguard public property and to abjure violence;

(j) to strive towards excellence in all spheres of individual and collective activity so that the nation constantly rises to higher levels of endeavour and achievement.]

---

If Indian Muslims , who you claim to represent , support Kashmiri separatism , you are guilty of the violation of Fundamental Duty (c) , i.e. ,

``(c) to uphold and protect the sovereignty, unity and integrity of India``

If you violate your fundamental duties , according to the constitution of India , you lose your claim over the fundamental rights , and you are no longer an Indian citizen.

Train to Pakistan 2004: The Journey Outbound Aha_snark ,

First of all , a free advice. Make it brief. Nobody has the patience to read your never ending , but ultimately vacous posts. (And please dont exhibit your stupidity by making those funny noises - its pathetic).

Now , the reason jobs are created in the IT sector , but not many in manufacturing is because manufacturing in India is highly regulated and affected by the license-quota raj. IT is relatively free.

The reason India has been poor for so long is because of the government enforced closed economy . 1991 was a landmark year for India , imo more important than 1947 , because that was the year steps were taken to discard obscurantist nehruvian socialist policies.

Since then , incomes in India have quadrupled , gdp growth rates have been around 6-7% , and below poverty line population has decreased from 41% of the population in 1990 to the present 23% , inspite of an increase in population of 20% in the same period.

What that means is , since the 1991-reforms , every year , tens of millions of Indians have been rising out of poverty. Now we have a sizeable middle class of anywhere from 300-450 million , which simply did not exist a decade or two back.

How far India has come can be understood by this statistic - 270 million homes (or about 700-800 million people)in India have access to cable tv. People who can afford to have cable connection don`t usually have to worry about food ,clothing ,shelter etc.

The reason India still ranks 127 on hdi (china , btw ranks 107) , the reason 230 million Indians are still living in poverty , the reason many million Indians are unemployed or underemployed - is because of the lack of economic reforms , not because of it.

The economic liberalisation process started in 1991 has been so far excruciatingly slow , because of the various obstructions thrown in the way by those who benefit the most by keeping India poor - the socialists , NGO activists (Yes to foreign aid No to Foreign Investment) , politicians , bureaucrats and government/psu workers.

Far too much time has been wasted , far too much potential has been lost for India to deliberate any further on the reforms process. We need to do it and do it now. Else we will be left behind for ever .

The choice ahead of India is clear , liberalise and integrate with global economy , open up its market - and march towards the route of rapid development. Else , Go the other way - the Somalian way.

As Arun Shourie said , `` Its India`s moment now , but it is only a moment...``

Murder on Helm Street #668,

Madam ,

I know your hatred for BJP , but believe me , if BJP doesn`t form the government again , India is in trouble. Infact I would say ,as I often say , India is doooomed.

The alternative will be a Congress government , supported by people like Mulayam ,Mayawathi , Laloo and worst of all , the leftists.

Economic reforms will suffer a major setback , privatiation of the sick PSUs will be stopped , reservations for sc/st,dalit,muslims will be enforced even in private sector jobs ( bye bye to merit) , MNCs will be thrown out , and basically nehruvian socialism will stage a grand comeback.

From `India Shining` (hype or not , Indian GDP logged 10.4% growth rate this quarter) , we will soon have `India Cracking`.

The Market and India Inc. have already expressed their serious displeasure and dread at the very thought of a non-BJP government -The BSE has lost 300 points in 2 days ever since the exit polls results forecasting improved results for Congress came out.

Imagine how the mobile-carrying-multiplex-visiting-credit-card-possessing-bjp-voting-urban-middle- class-Indians will react if Madame Antonia Maino becomes the Prime Minister of India , Comrade Sitaram Yechury the Finance Minister , Shri. Mulayam Yadav the Defence Minister , Miss Mayawathiji the HRD minister , Shriman Laloo Prasad Yadav the External Affairs Minister , and Mr.Mohammed Shahbuddin the Home Minister.

I for one refuse to be ruled by Laloos ,Mayawathis ,Mulayams , leftists (Indeed , I prefer the Italian lady to them , that is how much I hate them)....if that happens , I`ll immediately push for the liberation of the Progressive South from Backward Stinking North.

We Murthys and Premjis ain`t gonna be ruled by Laloos and Mayawathis...No siree , NO WAY...

A Sign of Things To Come? So Quraishi , now that you have shown your class , here is a serious Indian perspective for you. No , the writer of the below piece is not some ridiculously vacous bollywood actress , whose opinion means so much to you..

Arindam Banerji , Ph.D. ,

Beware of Musharraf!


April 22, 2004


Jaws dropped, mouths drooled, and knees chattered -- hai! Ram!!, kya ho gaya yaar -- he`d done it again.

Just when it seemed, that Pakistan was ready for friendly behavior, Musharraf threatened us with a deadline on Kashmir. `Yet another U-turn` screamed the headlines; analysts overnight came up with well-adjudged reasons for it all -- `the MNNA status given to Pakistan by the US has made them more confident,` they claimed.

But the reality is that Musharraf has been making these threats for quite a few weeks now. As Asia Times told us many weeks ago: `Lieutenant General Shahid Aziz, Corps Commander Lahore, who is tipped to be the next chief of army staff, criticized Pakistan`s ``softer`` stand on Kashmir, which forced Musharraf to give a gentleman`s promise that if India continues with its designs by not responding to Pakistan`s initiatives, Pakistan will support the Kashmiri struggle with `full heart and soul` from May when the snow starts melting.`

Of course, Musharraf has also convinced his cohorts, that the minimal acceptable good-faith response from India would be a `Pakistan keeps all it`s got, but India negotiates for the scraps it gets` plan, called the Chenab plan.

What gives -- wasn`t Musharraf supposed to have turned over a new leaf, especially after the two genuine assassination attempts? Heck, one of my favorite essayists had this to say:

`Well, having watched Musharraf carefully in Davos, where he became a star for being the Islamic world`s most moderate leader, and having listened to his speech to Islamic scholars in Islamabad last week I have to say that he does appear to have changed. Not only does he no longer seem duplicitous when he renounces jihad as something that has brought a bad name to Islam but he seemed completely sincere when he told the Islamic scholars that Pakistan needed to prove to the world that it was no longer a country that promoted terrorism` -- (Indian Express, February 22)

Let me start with my contention then -- all this hand-wringing is misplaced -- Musharraf and Pakistan have not taken a U-turn at all; in fact they never took a turn for the better, in the first place.

Surely, I must be smoking weird stuff or a down and out fundoo of some sort -- after all, venerated opinion makers have been telling us about the warm fuzzies that`s sweeping the two nations. Yeah! Right -- the good thing about opinions is that everyone has one and miraculously, most such opinions do not need to have any co-relation with facts.

Don`t believe me -- consider the recent ruminations of a suave opinion-maker on this issue:

`Whilst in the last quarter century we, in India, have become cold and suspicious of our neighbor they, (the Pakistanis) on the other hand, have become more open and welcoming of us.`

That is his opinion, of course, and he is welcome to it -- unfortunately, the facts state that in the last quarter century, these same `open and welcoming` people have killed off 100,000 Indian civilians. Ah, those pesky facts -- intruding on well-formed ideological opinions, once again.

So, I say -- show me the evidence; show me the ground realities. Only then will I believe in any of these apoplexies of bonhomie. Can we faithfully answer such simple questions, as `has the killing in Kashmir really gone down since the peace moves?` After all, a basic measure of good faith would be to stop killing the people that you`re trying to be at peace with -- right?

Apparently, the answer to this simple question is an unequivocal NO!!.

`Interestingly, February 2004 saw a marginal increase in violence compared with the same month of 2003. There were 60 attacks on security forces last month, compared with 53 in February 2003. 183 people died in terrorism-related violence, compared with 126 the previous year,` says Praveen Swami, a well-known security expert.

In other words, 57 more people have died this year in Kashmir, as compared to the same time last year. Of course, last year we were nearly at war with that nation, but this year we are at peace with Pakistan. As for those infiltration rates --don`t worry, that too is being taken care of as IntelligenceOnline reports:

`Following the US decision to make Pakistan a ``major non-NATO ally,`` the Indian Army and security forces have seen a perceptible heightening of terrorist preparations to infiltrate into Jammu and Kashmir once the snows melt, and officials say that General Pervez Musharraf is going back on his peace commitments to India.`

So, we have our first peace dividend data:

► Peace Dividend #1 -- Terrorist related deaths have shown a sharp increase in peaceful February 2004 compared to February 2003, when near-war like conditions existed. Total deaths including those of terrorists went up by 45%; deaths of Indians civilians and security forces went up 76%

Enough chit-chat -- let`s look at the evident ground realities of the last 6 months and tally up the other peace dividends.

No terrorism from Pakistani soil -- fact or fiction?

We were informed `there would be no more terrorism against India from any territory controlled by Pakistan.` Of course, some of us even believed it. But, once again the facts are very different from our wishes, hopes and opinions. The basic facts, that I will point out is that not only are groups like Lashkar-e-Tayiba openly carrying out attacks on India, they hold public jihad meetings and have been going on nation-wide fund-raising campaigns for jihadi terrorism. Perhaps, the worst news is that, the political party that is in majority in two provinces and holds 20% of the seats in the National Assembly of Pakistan is openly trying to legitimise these terrorist groups, by incorporating them into the alliance called the MMA. The Pakistani weekly The Friday Times tells us, that

`Maulana Samiul Haq`s faction of the Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam (JUI-S) is devising a plan to widen the existing membership of Mutahidda Majlis-e-Amal, a six-party religious alliance. But the JUI-S is trying to play its hand cleverly. The party seems to be moving towards getting other groups in by going through the `jihadi` groups. ``We do not reckon Lashkar-e-Taiba (now Jama`at-ud-Dawa) and banned Jaish-e-Mohammad as enemy organizations and consider them as patriotic as anyone else in Pakistan,`` JUI-S Khan told TFT.`

However, the Lashkar`s recent activities provides much more direct evidence. We were told `India has made its continued participation in the peace talks contingent on Musharraf`s efforts to crack down on groups such as Lashkar-e-Tayiba.`

Only during the few days of the SAARC summit, were there any restrictions put on the Lashkar -- its web site was shut down and its chief restrained from giving speeches for those days. In fact, even during those few days, an Indian journalist friend managed to have a skin-crawling encounter, when he paid a visit to the very open, very active Lashkar offices in Islamabad. Since the SAARC summit, things have gone back to normal, as you`ll see [Hindu, February 24].

In fact, just about an hour after Indian and Pakistani diplomats meeting in Islamabad had proclaimed the successful conclusion of their first round of peace talks; talks made possible in part by Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf`s solemn promise to put an end to the activities of the extremists waging war against India in Kashmir -- the Lashkar held a large jihadi meeting right in the middle of Islamabad.

The NYT put it thus: `There was no way to hide the gathering of 500 or so solemn, heavily bearded men who had assembled alongside one of Islamabad`s smartest shopping centers to hear him (Lashkar chief Hafiz Sayed) speak. Brightly colored carpets were strewn around the grass, and banners were strung up around the park extolling the virtues of the ``jihad`` being waged against Indian rule in Kashmir.`

Virulently anti-Indian speeches were topped by Hafiz Sayed who declared `Beat the infidels so harshly that they run away,` probably referring to the minority populations who are being systematically cleansed out of Kashmir valley. Denouncing Musharraf`s support for the United States in its proclaimed war against terrorism, Saeed told his supporters that the jihad for Kashmir `will continue until Kashmir is free.` The Pakistani police simply looked on.

The contrast of these openly anti-India activities right along side the so-called peace talks, did not go unnoticed by the foreign press -- only that much of the Indian press missed it. As Amy Waldman tells us, `The anti-Indian speeches at the park were a pointed contrast to what Pakistan`s foreign secretary, Riaz Khokhar, described Wednesday as the ``very constructive`` atmosphere at the talks between him and his Indian counterpart, Shashank.`

Lying blatantly, Pakistani Interior Minister Faisal Saleh Hayat openly defended the terrorist group `Jamaat ul-Dawa (Lashkar) had not been banned because there is no credible substantive evidence that it is indulging in activities against the interest of Pakistan or using Pakistan as a base to harm the interest of people or governments or countries outside Pakistan.`

Same old story -- so, let us investigate that last statement.

A few weeks ago, three Lashkar Pakistanis, attempting to attack the international airport in Delhi were caught, interrogated and made available to some pressmen. Describing what they heard to be `disturbing evidence of a renewed cross-border offensive by the Lashkar-e-Taiba,` The Hindu informed us about four separate `specially-trained fidayeen (suicide squad) groups had been sent across the Line of Control since December, when India and Pakistan began observing a ceasefire. Members of these groups carried out attacks on a bus stand in Poonch and the Jammu railway station before initiating plans to hit the Indira Gandhi International Airport.`

The first group was almost completely decimated by Indian security forces. So, as The Hindu goes on to say, `Lashkar commanders had earlier dispatched a second fidayeen squad led by Rashid, also a Karachi resident, in early December. This squad carried out the December 10 attack on the main bus stand in Poonch, killing three persons and injuring 10. One fidayeen was also killed in the course of the attack. Two other Lashkar cadres volunteered for the January 2 assault on the Jammu railway station. Four security force personnel were killed in this attack, in which both fidayeen who carried it out also died.`

The remnants of these two groups planned were then asked to carry out the attacks on IG airport, where the plan was to carry out a `frontal attack on any of the three departure terminals, where passengers are not screened by security staff until after they enter the buildings.`

The third group was arrested in Delhi right before Republic Day, preventing a huge international fiasco. `In an effort to replace these losses, a fourth fidayeen group attempted to cross the LoC two weeks ago at Dehri, in Poonch. Troops of the 25 Punjab Regiment intercepted this unit metres from the LoC, and killed five terrorists in a brief but fierce battle. The firing almost led to a showdown with Pakistani troops, said sources who also claimed that the terrorists bodies lay on their side of the LoC. Indian soldiers eventually recovered three bodies, while Pakistani troops took two.`

The evidence of Pakistani machinations in continuing big attacks in India is actually much broader than that. Asia Times has reported in the last few months about an `a new recruitment campaign for militants -- to be used in cross-border raids into Indian-administered Kashmir` -- that has been started in all big cities. Throughout the last six peaceful months Lashkar has been never stopped its fund-raising, brazen terrorist attacks or its public recruitment drives. Throughout the winter months of October through January, the Jaish-e-Mohammad supremo was engaged in country-wide jihad conferences to raise money and awareness for jihadi-terrorism in Kashmir.

Zulfiqar Shah expresses surprise at Maulana Masood Azhar`s `recent countrywide tour to address a number of widely publicised jehad conferences` and goes on to say `Masood Azhar`s tour -- widely considered as a major proof of the resurgence of jihadi activity …raises questions as to whether it could have taken place without the government`s consent. ``The tour has established that he enjoys the state support,`` says an analyst who wanted not to be named. ``It`s astonishing that on one hand Musharraf says he is against jihadis and on the other hand he has given Masood Azhar free hand to hold jihad congregations throughout Pakistan,`` says Iqbal Hyder, former minister for law and parliamentary affairs and executive council member of Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. ``Masood has been operating under complete patronage of government agencies,`` he claims.`

Describing one such conference that took place in Karachi, the author says `Followed by wide publicity though pamphlets, posters and banners all around the city, the conference was able to attract thousands of people to come and listen to him. Even the city government headed by Jamaat Islami`s Naimatullah Khan, which otherwise is very quick in removing unauthorised advertisement banners and hoardings, gave the organisers free hand for the publicity of the conference. Contrary to past practice when Jaish`s functions were closed for many people especially media, Masood Azhar`s jehad conference in Karachi was an open event. The way it was publicised clearly showed that the organisers wanted to draw as many people as they could. Masood Azhar, who has renamed his organisation as Pyam-e-Islam, has addressed similar conferences attended by thousands of people in Hyderabad and Nawab Shah in Sindh and Lahore and other cities in Punjab`

Today, Masood Azhar is supposed to be on the run, due to his involvement in internal terrorist acts, but most Pakistani newspapers claim that he is hiding in the open under the protection of a Punjab minister. None of these leaders of terrorist groups have been arrested or have had their activities curtailed within Pakistan.

The denial of course, goes on at all levels -- speaking to an Aussie television station, Musharraf went to bat for the Lashkar with `Lashkar-e-Tayiba is not threatening anybody. Who has told you that they are threatening anybody?` and even denied the now well-reported arrests of Lashkar honchos in Iraq -- pretty much like he`d given 400% denials about any nuclear proliferation from Pakistan 2 years ago!!

► Peace Dividend #2 -- Anti-India terrorist groups still receive Pakistani government support and encouragement; these groups, especially the Lashkar, are raising funds in public, recruit openly, disseminate terror propaganda, carry out nation-wide jihad conferences and plan/carry out attacks on India; worse still, they are now being legitimized through incorporation into powerful political parties and of course the denial continues

Train to Pakistan 2004: The Journey Outbound I really have nothing new to say. Most of the folks here know where I stand. Just repeating an old post for the benefit of Romair >>> (`` Pakistan needs to open up trade with India, fully. This will occur through SAFTA, shortly. Once these two things happens, I think more and more Indians will become inclined to pressurize their govts. to handle the concerns that Pakistan has, with India.``)


+++++++

There is no need for friendship with Pakistan , a country that ranks 144 on human development index. I would rather have our idiotic policy makers concentrate on building better relationships (based on economics and trade) with US , Israel ,EU and the ASEAN countries . India should be working hard at getting out of this third world rut, not fall head long into it. All this crap about India-Pak friendship, brotherhood looks patently third worldish to me. ]

Train to Pakistan 2004: The Journey Outbound Aha_Snark ,

Lady ,( I`m hoping you are a lady) the word `leftist` sealed it. The only thing I would accuse you of is being stupid.

---

(This was posted earlier on the pre-historic D-M`s thread (the dil chod aya to Pakistan one))

Veeresh bhai ,

There are whole lot of reasons India has not been able to effectively counter the threat from Pakistan .

More than anything else , it has always been a failure to attempt a closure.

It all began in 1948 when Nehru stopped the Indian Army from advancing further into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir , (just when they were at an advantage and in a position to capturing whole J&K) , and referred the matter to UN , because of which we are suffering even today.

In 1965 , we captured a few strategic peaks on LOC , but needlessly gave them back after Tashkent negotiations.

In 1971 , Indira Gandhi failed to take full advantage of the tremendous leverage Indian Army had given us by capturing alive 90,000 Pakistani soldiers. I`m sure 90,000 Pakistani POWs could be used to get a lot more than what we ultimately got by the Shimla agreement , which Pakistan doesn`t respect anyway. Also , Pakistan was a totally humilitaed and defeated country then , having lost half its country , but our leaders didn`t take advantage of it.

In Kargil war , our soldiers were not allowed to cross LOC to fight.

In Kashmir , as you pointed out , our soldiers are made to fight with their arms tied , targetted constantly as they are by the ISI-sponsored `human rights activists` , media , pacifist government etc.

But by saying I blame Pakistan for `all the ills that plague our country` you put words in my mouth. I never said that.

I believe Pakistan is just a lackey and a frontline state of our real enemy , China . Pakistan , I have always stated is more an irritant than a real threat , so there is no reason for this obsession with Pakistan. We need to deal effectively with our enemies.

But I have also said there are more important things that need to be done. Like liberalising Indian economy for instance. Speeding up economic reforms ,free market , cutting bureacratic redtape , ending the licence-quota-reservation-subsidy raj , privatising our PSUs , attracting investments in infrastructure and manufacturing etc.

For India to be a serious military power , it is important that we become an economic power. The best way to counter any threat from Pakistan is to open up the Indian economy and implment economic reforms in its totality. That will ensure that our GDP growth rate will match that of China`s , and its the only way we will be able to compete with China.

As the economic gulf between India and Pakistan widens (Indian economy already 10-11 times size of Pakistan`s economy , and grows at 3-4% higher rate) , it will become increasingly impossible for Pakistan to compete with India militarily . That is the day , Pakistan will back-off from this confrontation with India , and we will have peace in the subcontinent.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! First of all ,

Vertex - I remember reading a few very anti-India posts from you a while back on some other thread , but I thought that was no big deal , as I mistook you for a Pakistani or a guy of Paki origin.

Now that you say your parents are from India , and hold a viewpoint similar to yours ,

I just hope you do not represent Indian muslims , because you come across as a vehemently anti-India person. Your hatred for the Indian nation has been obvious for all to see.

I do hope Ballu Khan represents Indian muslims.

---

Nooralain ,

whatever , my good lady , whatever you say...

---

Ballu Khan ,

Lt.Kalia hailed from a well-to-do middle class family , and so I dont think money is a problem to his parents. Indian Army takes good care of its officers , jawans and their families .

But if you are serious about making a contribution , I request you to send your Cheques/Account Payee Drafts in favour of ``Army Central Welfare Fund``, at the following address :-

Deputy Director (CW-8),
Adjutant General`s Branch,
West Block III,Room No.76,
R K Puram, New Delhi-110066,
INDIA.

Tele: 91-11-6196217 / 3018112
Fax: 91-11-3792511

Contributions made to the Fund are fully exempted from Income Tax under Section 80G of Indian Income Tax Act 1961.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Veeresh bhai ,

There are whole lot of reasons India has not been able to effectively counter the threat from Pakistan .

More than anything else , it has always been a failure to attempt a closure.

It all began in 1948 when Nehru stopped the Indian Army from advancing further into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir , (just when they were at an advantage and in a position to capturing whole J&K) , and referred the matter to UN , because of which we are suffering even today.

In 1965 , we captured a few strategic peaks on LOC , but needlessly gave them back after Tashkent negotiations.

In 1971 , Indira Gandhi failed to take full advantage of the tremendous leverage Indian Army had given us by capturing alive 90,000 Pakistani soldiers. I`m sure 90,000 Pakistani POWs could be used to get a lot more than what we ultimately got by the Shimla agreement , which Pakistan doesn`t respect anyway. Also , Pakistan was a totally humilitaed and defeated country then , having lost half its country , but our leaders didn`t take advantage of it.

In Kargil war , our soldiers were not allowed to cross LOC to fight.

In Kashmir , as you pointed out , our soldiers are made to fight with their arms tied , targetted constantly as they are by the ISI-sponsored `human rights activists` , media , pacifist government etc.

But by saying I blame Pakistan for `all the ills that plague our country` you put words in my mouth. I never said that.

I believe Pakistan is just a lackey and a frontline state of our real enemy , China . Pakistan , I have always stated is more an irritant than a real threat , so there is no reason for this obsession with Pakistan. We need to deal effectively with our enemies.

But I have also said there are more important things that need to be done. Like liberalising Indian economy for instance. Speeding up economic reforms ,free market , cutting bureacratic redtape , ending the licence-quota-reservation-subsidy raj , privatising our PSUs , attracting investments in infrastructure and manufacturing etc.

For India to be a serious military power , it is important that we become an economic power. The best way to counter any threat from Pakistan is to open up the Indian economy and implment economic reforms in its totality. That will ensure that our GDP growth rate will match that of China`s , and its the only way we will be able to compete with China.

As the economic gulf between India and Pakistan widens (Indian economy already 10-11 times size of Pakistan`s economy , and grows at 3-4% higher rate) , it will become increasingly impossible for Pakistan to compete with India militarily . That is the day , Pakistan will back-off from this confrontation with India , and we will have peace in the subcontinent.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Veeresh bhai ,

I thought I was being reasonable. I basically made the point that it was preposterous on your part to suggest armies of both India and Pakistan fighting anti-India terrorism together as the anti-India terrorists are only an extension of Pakistan`s military force. So it would be ludicrous to sugget that the Pakistani Establishment would help in the killing of its own employees. Infact even your Pakistani friends would laugh at such a suggestion.

Also kindly note Pakistan`s fight against terrorism (sincere or not) is limited to its western borders - i.e. , against the anti-US terrorists (Taliban). While the anti-India terrorists are basically on the payroll of the Pakistani government , and seen popularly as heroes , freedom fighters , Islamic warriors , fighting Indian attrocities against the poor Kashmiris and other Indian muslims.

As I said earlier , any Pakistani administration that chunks the Kashmir agenda will be thrown out by its people.

Now , to answer your questions ,

[`` What have you done to try to improve or change matters?
b) What have you done towards Kalia`s family, since you use his name all the time?``]

Obviously I`m not in any position of power in our country , else I would certainly do more than just rant on the net. As I said , I`m just a middle class Indian guy.

Why I use Kalia`s name ? Well , you and your friends were generalising Pakistanis as angels and Pakistan as heaven on basis of your experiences in Pakistan , so it was necessary for me to showcase the other side of the picture , which you totally ignored.

Also ,my point is , given half a chance , Pakistan will do to India and kurf Indians what they did to Lt.Kalia and his men.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Veeresh bhai , #82,

You are a good chap , but slightly naive.

All the stuff about India-Pak fighting terrorism together is silly. Those anti-India terrorist camps are run by Pakistan , just the way Pakistan runs its military , police etc. The anti-India terror camps in Pakistan are pretty much part of its establishment.

I totally agree with your point about Indian politicians stifling the Indian Army. But that is OUR problem. That does not excuse Pakistan from sponsoring terrorism in India.

The Pakistani mentality can be best understood by one of those supposedly educated westernised Paki in this very thread (I forget the name) , who justified the jehad funding and killing of Indian civilians and security forces and equated it with the money collected for building ram temple in India.

PS : You make a big deal about me remaining anonymous and not using my real name. Boss ...ideas matter , not identities . I would like to believe my thinking resonates with that of any typical Indian metro hindu middle class guy born in the 1980s , and not having to deal with the silly nostalgia of partition or punjabi brotherhood or worst of all , Nehruvian socialism.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! Manto-Banto...answer the following questions and then we will talk about myth shattering etc. etc.

[1. Has Pakistan stopped sending its terrorists over the LOC ?
2. Has Pakistan dismantled its anti-India terrorist camps ?
3. Has Paksitan arrested those terrorist leaders /criminals responsible for death of several Indian citizens ?]

1. ,2. , 3. , is what ordinary Indians like me care about. They are the REAL ISSUES that affect us. We don`t really give a damn about how Lahore looks , how Pakis party etc. etc.

Dost-Mittar , Veersesh etc. have made a valiant bid to take away the focus from the real issues. Won`t work.

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In response to Dost-Mittar`s #40 , there is no difference between the Pakistani state and the Pakistani people. Pakistani state does and always has done what the Pakistani people have wanted. Millions of Pakistanis have volunteered to fight the `kufr` Indian forces in Kashmir and elsewhere. The people who tortured Lt.Kalia so mercilessly were ordinary Pakistani soldiers , not Musharaf or some general.The state did not force them to adopt such views. It comes from the heart.

Its totally dishonest of you to separate the state from its people. Indeed , any administration in Pakistan that decides to dissociate itself from the Kashmir movement will be thrown out by the people of Pakistan.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! 3 questions .

1. Has Pakistan stopped sending its terrorists over the LOC ?
2. Has Pakistan dismantled its anti-India terrorist camps ?
3. Has Paksitan arrested those terrorist leaders /criminals responsible for death of several Indian citizens ?

The answer to all the above questions is still NO.

Until the answer is well and truly in the affirmative , until Paksitan well and truly gives up its jehad against India and stops eyeing Indian territory , all talk of peace between India and Pakistan is premature. Until that happens , nothing will have changed and people of India (apart from the Dost-Mittars) will continue to view Pakistan as an enemy.

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Just to add to what I said ,

I find it extremely distasteful to see Dost-Mittar and a few other so-called Indians dancing and socialising with Pakistanis when everyday Indian soldiers are putting their lives on the line , fighting Pakistani terrorists and Pakistan Army.

(Consider this entirely hypothetical situation.)

Its like a bunch of jews going to Berlin in middle of WW-2 , and socialising ,dancing with the German elite while at the same time millions of fellow jews were being executed in concentration camps.

To say Dost-Mittar experiences in Pakistan is THE truth , is same as the above said Jews socialising in Germany saying that Germans are jolly good folks , Germany is a wonderful place and all the stories about concentration camps are really lies spread by `jewish fanatics` , just a malicious attempt to paint Germany in a poor light.

Dost-Mittar , by your `dil chod aya in Pakistan` thing , you have shown your total disrespect and disregard for those hundreds of Indian soldiers who have laid down their lives fighting the Pakistani terrorists in Kashmir over the last 10-15 years.

I have total contempt for you and those like you. I have nothing more to say. Goodbye.

My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya!
``Notorious Paki-bashers missing from this board also.... Can`t handle the truth? ``

Yes. Truth indeed. We all have different ways of looking at the same thing.

To Dost-Mittar and others like him , who carry the `Indian` tag , but not really `Indian` at heart , Pakistan is all about kite-flying , dancing ,nostalgia , partition , partying etc.

To those like me , real Indians living in India and may I say those who care about India (`Paki-bashers` and `hindu fanatics` to you) - Pakistan is an enemy with which our soldiers are involved in a war (albeit low intensity one) day in and day out . A country that sponsors terrorism in India , trains its citizens and sends them over to fight and kill as many Indians as possible , has plans of `bleeding India` , `crushing India`. Eyes Indian territory and has wet dreams of breaking India into a million fragments.

To me personally Pakistanis will always be the people who sneaked into Indian territory , ambushed and captured a 5 man patrol led by a young 22 year old Lt. Saurav Kalia , totured Lt.Kalia and men for 22 days in every way imaginable - cut off their ear ,nose , tongue , pulled off their teeth , pored boiling oil and scalded their skins , plucked out their eye balls , mutilated their genitals , smashed their limbs , cut of their fingers ,toes - and finally threw their dismembered ,mutilated bodies over to the nearest Indian post , with a warning that such treatment will be meted out to every single kufr Indian soldier.

Given half a chance to do so , I have no doubt that the Pakistanis would do the same to every Indian. But sadly for them , they do not have the power to do so. If only wishes were horses...


Now , all that Dost-Mittarish-Punjabi-common-culture tomfoolery is fine , not to be taken seriously , enjoy it while you can. But to say some party hosted by some feudal in Lahore (Sali`s party etc.) and Basant etc. is the truth about Pakistan is stupid.

The torture of Lt. Kalia happened a few months after the the Lahore Declaration and similar declarations of subcontinental peace and brotherhood between N.Sharif and Vajpayee. Kargil war followed Lahore Bus.

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Madam Sahiba , if Shilpa Shetty , Akshay Kuman ,Urmila Matondkar etc. took the trouble of participating in internet forums such as these , and painted Pakistan as heaven and Paksitanis as angels , I would definitely make a point or two about the Jehad Boxes.

They do exist , by the way. Integral part of any Pakistani market.