The Bubble Bursts

Re: # 450

Very fair indeed. Will it not be fair either to declare all Muslims who believe in `Takfeer` ( condemning and hating all faiths other than the one they believe in) as `Maleechhas` or `infidels` institutionally by the `infidel` states or the UNO? In fact according to Qurane Hakeem it is only Allah who can be judge of one`s faith.

Aayat 14, soorae hujraat (49) mein Allah farmata he:
``Kaha ganwaron (Arab Awam) ne kih imaan laae ham. Keh nah iman laae tum lekin kaho `Musalman` yehni maghloob hue ham aur abhi nahin daakhil hua iman biich tumhare dilonN meiN aur agar farmanbardari karo allah aur rasool uske ki nahin kam dega tumhaare amloN se kuchh. Tehqiq allah bakhshne wala mehrban he.``

Paracha

Good talk indeed but provides no answer to fanaticism which produces a suicide bomber for whom 72 virgins are awaiting with garlands in their hands. What hell the fanaticism of the worst ritualistic sectarian type can let loose can be seen in Pakistan, paradoxically, a country created by Jinnah, the most liberal leader of the Indian Muslims and then plunged into the worst type of obscurantism by another liberal leader, Z.A. Bhutto, who converted the very Constitution of his new Pakistan into a `Fatwa` (a religious edict).

The fact is, as Allama Iqbal had said:

``Laakh hakeem sar bajeb ek kaliim sar bakaf``

(Lacs of intelectuals with their heads in their pockets cannot be a match to a man who carries his head on his palm)

swarrier bhai,

Kahane wale se badaa (and more intelligent) hota hai sunane wala. So shukriya for finding meaning in those words.

Re: # 480
[It is the shoddy theoretician, the ideologue, the well-dressed and often well-spoken purveyor of deliberate delusion that replants the seeds and nourishes the harvest of evil from age to age. ]

O Wheel of time (or fortune) , this is a smashing sentence. To be savoured like fine wine , I can almost taste it. Bloody marvellous.

#482 by warpster

Make these optional and what is left is not Islam but one`s one interpretation a la carte..

That is 100% right on the dot. That is the dilemma with the efforts of Ulema like Javed Ghamdi. If you throw out the literal edicts, you`re left with nothing, certainly not enough to warrant a whole new religion.

And this is the latest on Indonesia, which has traditionally been a home for a peaceful type of islam (if you ignore the anti-chinese pogroms). Basically about 10% of the muslim population support terror and a much bigger percentage want a throwback to the medieval ages.

Survey shows 10% Indonesians justify suicide bombing, 40% want sharia laws.

Ridwan Max Sijabat, Jakarta Post.
Mar 18, 2006


Islamic conservatism is a growing force to be reckoned with across the country, with research indicating about 40 percent of citizens would support the replacement of state laws with sharia and one in 10 consider suicide bombings justified in some circumstances.

A survey conducted in late January by the Indonesian Survey Institute (LSI) found 40 percent of respondents approved of adulterers being stoned to death, 34 percent did not want to see another female president and 40 percent accepted polygamy.

On a thief`s hands being chopped off, 38 percent of respondents said the punishment fitted the crime.

The survey involved 2,000 respondents from different backgrounds nationwide.

In presenting the survey results on Thursday, a senior researcher at the LSI, Anis Baswedan, said it was clear that certain Muslim groups had already embraced sharia as a value system as evidenced by their support for conservative organisations, such as the Islam Defenders Front and the Indonesian Mujahidin Council.

On the whole, respondents were less acquainted with right- and left-wing extremist groups, such as the Eden sect, the Liberal Islam Network, Syiah, Hisbut Tahrir and Ahmadiyah.

Anis said, however, that despite the obvious support for conservative organisations, the majority of Muslims did not want to see the existing election system replaced, as was indicated by the results of the 2004 general election.

Muslim-based parties advocating the adoption of sharia did not fare well in the legislative election.

Likewise, the presidential candidates nominated by them did not get the support they were counting on from mainstream Muslim groups.

Yet, the majority of respondents saw eye to eye with the country`s largest Muslim organisations -- Nadhlatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah.

On the other hand, the survey also revealed that one in 10 people tolerate suicide bombing and other attacks on civilian targets in the name of Islam.

Anis said the strong support for conservatism and ``radicalism`` had much to do with what respondents called the negative influence of Western culture and the global injustice blamed on the US as a superpower representing the West.

zeemax #454...

I am talking about the core islam qua islam. An axiom is that the Koran is to be interpreted literally and taken very seriously. And Sharia is also a core concept. And apostasy/blasphemy is taken really seriously. These are facts on the ground. And it is truly ridiculous. How long it will take a significant chunk of muslims to wake up is anyone`s guess.

Make these optional and what is left is not Islam but one`s one interpretation a la carte.. a la the many sects of hinduism. I`d like to know how many dancing sufis and such populate Saudi Arabia and what effect they have on their society.. Not too much it appears. I`ll actually bet there are many more free wheeling make your own religion as you go along muslims in INDIA than PAKISTAN simply because there is (DUH!) real freedom of religion in India.

Folks

the conversation has veered to singapore about which I have first hand knowledge/experience.

Lee is NOT a socialist.. He was one in his youth. He is one hell of a smart cookie who understands real-politik. He made Singapore a capitalist society albeit democratically controlled by 1 party. The movers and shakers are highly educated technocrats, lawyers. etc. But the political culture is quite unique and trying to oppose the party can mean big time trouble.

Singapore is a fun place so long as you steer clear of (i) drugs and (ii) politics. Sex is A-ok! If you play along (and some desis have), one can make it big. I dont know what the current level of free speech is in the country but I think the media is all govt controlled, directly or indirectly. Even criticism is an art form of sorts.

Cops there are very low key and they dont particularly give a damn about speeding or jaywalking.. All those fines are just for effect.

One sad thing is that they hang so many poor drug peddlers (not the king pins).. I guess the confucian ethics is pretty cool about capital punishment.

But it is a nice place for a holiday and has fantastic, inexpensive food.

Singapore is one place where mosques DO NOT broadcast over loud speakers (unlike India and pak).. And the sermons etc. are monitored. No radical mullahs can survive here unless they are in super stealth mode. These guys mean business.

Raw_Dust

Yaar, average folks of all religions are decent men and women. Left to themselves, most of them should end up in heaven for all the hard work they do in surviving from day to day in this very imperfect world (assuming the (wo)man upstairs is still just). Neither need we worry about the ignorant village priest, the ponga pandit or the mad mulla. It is the shoddy theoretician, the ideologue, the well-dressed and often well-spoken purveyor of deliberate delusion that replants the seeds and nourishes the harvest of evil from age to age.

Only, Islamists and their apologists have decided to put up a fight. I have my doubts, whether an average muslim would have time for this stuff as he`d rather prefer a stable economy, jobs and celebrating Mohammad`s birthday and have fun than to actually pay attention to the indefensible aspects of Mo`s life.

kaalchakra:
lets talk specifics, in the case of mohammad, all his ideas about governance and society are already thoroughly debunked so either way you look at it, personality or ideas, it is a lose lose situation for Mohammad as a person or the ideas he espoused, i.e., Islam.

Only people who harp about it are those who are existentially attached to Mohammad`s culture. The modern culture will erode and dismantle the stanglehold of Islam on their own socieites and the cultural disintegration that would follow. This would mean for Islamists, a loss of identity, a severing of link with one`s own forefathers by renouncing their culture in the favor of Modern which stresses money instead of ``morality`` and ``honor``.

Others, for instance chinese, have givenup on the aspects of their culture opposed to modernity, without a fight. Islamists wont as that would mean losing out (as an identity) here on earth and losing out in the Eternal, i.e., going to Hell (for siding with the devilish ideas of the Enlightenment).

OK, here`s the argument, Zeemax. Take it or leave it.

``Successful`` people can teach us things only when they can be objectively studied. When one is as free to praise them as to criticize them - if proper arguments can be advanced. At least when a genuine critic does not stand to lose limb or life.

Otherwise these ``successful`` are not real people. These are fictions.

Fictions don`t teach. They fuel delusions.

Ideas, on the other hand, can be taken up more objectively, and evaluated for their value.

---

It is not for nothing that most forms of fanaticism revolve around one greatly ``loved`` leader.

#472 by kaalchakra

Focus on ideas.

Of-course. But I guess it saves a lot of time by studying successful people`s ideas instead of reinventing the wheel.

#468 by swarrier / #473 by dost-mittar

You guys may be right. There`s a very valid argument about too much orderliness being somehow de-humanizing, but I don`t know. Actually I myself am a bit of an anarchist ... but by now it seems that it can be comforting to know that noone will break the queue for a taxi, everything will be available if you want it and at a proper place and not thrust upon you when you don`t, and I would be equal even though not being more priviliged than the next guy. Or even, say e.g. having a fair chance at the flight at the last moment without a confirmed seat. After all, if noone can bypass the waitlist in a full flight with a phone call, some poor waitlisted passenger at the airport gets it.

So ... the jury is still out on this.

S`pore is a rich taliban-style country. Just last month they hanged a vietnamese man for possession of a few gms of dope. Their criminal law system is barbaric.

#462 Yup its just u. Shes not ugly enuff imo.

zeemax:

I would call Lee an egalitarian rather than a socialist. His egalitarianism, however, is mixed with a strong commitment to meritocracy and also a dose of Confucian sense of honest and committed bureaucracy as well as family kinships. I am a great admirer of Lee`s model for pulling up a socially backward people from the Third to the First World, as the name of his autobiographical book suggest. This is also the reason why China is trying to duplicate his model, and with huge success. However, I think that this model should not be retained after the original purpose has been achieved. Singapore is too sterile a society at the present time, what it needs is a little bit of lightening up, a little bit more fun and a little less of the Big Brother making sure that no one picks his nose in public. If it fails to do that, it will never release the ceative juices of its people.