A Rant Against Reservations

Harimau,

What about the hypocrisy of dishonest crooks like yourself? Who is going to write an article about that.... Why is it that you always end up claiming something that blows up in your face?

Some how I missed your gem on my board:

{#339 by harimau on April 8, 2007 7:09am PT
Ref ballukhan #322

You appended a long letter with the following signatures:

[Dr. Zakir Hussain
(Vice Chancellor Aligarh University)
Sir Sultan Ahmed
(Former Member of Governor General`s Executive Council)
Sir Mohd. Ahmed Syed Khan
(Nawab of Chhatari, former acting
Governor of United Provinces and
Prime Minister of Hyderabad)
Sir Mohd. Usman
(Former member of Governor
General`s Executive council and
acting Governor of Madras)
Sir Iqbal Ahmed
(Former Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court)
Sir Fazal Rahimtoola
(Former Sheriff of Bombay)
Maulana Hafz-ur-Rehman M.P.
Col. B.H. Zaidi M.P.
Nawab Zain Yar Jung
(Minister Gcvernment of Hyderabad)
A.K. Kawaja
(Former President of Muslim Majlis)
T.M. Zarif
(General Secretary West Bengal Bohra Community)]

If Jinnahbhai had signed any letter, he would have had to say:

Mohammad Ali Jinnah
Unable to be elected Dogcatcher in Bombay Municipal Corporation
[Reply to interact #339] }}


Mahomed Ali Jinnah was the elected member of the Central Legislature from 1910-1945... i.e. 35 years. The number of years Gandhi was elected as the district sweeper in Bombay : ZERO. Then In 194687% of the Muslim electorate voted for Jinnah and rejected the assorted variety of British Knights and Mullah freaks that you quote above.

I wish however that Jinnah had sought election as a dog catcher instead. That way he would have dealt with Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi much better...

Ref bbabu #218 (and further to my post #221)

I just finished riding 400 miles across the mountains of Colorado on a bicycle in 6 days.

All the Indians who participated were brahmins.

You frikking Sudras are not even capable of a physical workout.

By the way, the best Chief of the Army Staff we had in recent years in India was Lt. Gen. K. Sundarji, a TamBrahm. Soldiering, in case you have forgotten, is not a brahminical profession.

Brahmins excel in anything they attempt because they want to.

Sudras whinge because it is the only thing they can do well.

Ref bbabu #218

From your response, it is clear that:

OBCs are not making it into the Olympiad teams for science subjects.

OBCs are incapable of working on research in mathematics and physics,

OBCs are incapable of playing an intellectual game such as chess,

OBCs will never make it to the top of professional recognition such as fellowship in the Royal Society or the American Academy of Science and/or Engineering.

So why do you need an education? What exactly is the purpose?

#216 by bbabu

You may not be an OBC, but you must be then an SC/ST or related to one somehow.

In any case, you have the tendency of not arguing on point, and just saying something to give the impression that you are engaging in some kind of argument.

Just like you say -

[To be specific caste based reservations ]

Yes. The issue was caste-based reservations, and NOT about sanitation. You have a wonderful knack of contradidcting yourself and still sounding as if you have come up with a cohesive argument.


You might be fooling some idiots that you are ``hanging with me`` on this argument, but in reality you are not. You lost track many posts ago.

In the future, if you want to argue with me, put up relevent points.

And by the way, the way COMMUNISM works is to distribute the pie more or less evenly. Not democracy. And it still never works.

Re: # 215

Bhakti Aatma Swamy,

One thing that scares me about India`s future is the internecine battles people fight (different castes and religions, especially between Hindus and Muslims).

I am not for reservations in jobs. Reservations in education with economic conditions + social status as criteria is sensible and that should not be forever. I recollect the Supreme Court judgement on the subject. Justice Chinnappa Reddy gave some cogent explanations for the policy. Nevertheless, the policy should not be forever. Bcoz it`s politically sensitive, our leader pander to electoral considerations.

The issue is very very muddied. Sensible discussion is not possible. I believe that Arjun Singh doesn`t belong to this era. He should retire. Cradle to grave support is senseless. Educational support is OK (along with economic criterion).

Best.

harimau #217

`` bbabu, shut your mouth about how IITs and any engineering education are a ticket to a green card. Chennai Mathematical Institute`s graduates easily get admission for PhD at Sorbonne, University of Paris, Oxford, Cambridge, etc. ``

There are a lot fewer mathematicians and science graduates emigrating to USA on a professional visa.

I never said that IITs are the only ticket to a green card. I know people from no-name colleges who have made it big in USA. Nor does every IIT graduate emigrate abroad. A lot of the students look at the IIT admission as a way to emigrate to USA and make money. That is my only point not even a complaint.

if you are not interested in studying computer engineering, electronics engineering or medicine I doubt anything hinders you other than lack of resources or intent.

`` Have you no shame in perpetuating the stereotype of an intellectually deficient person in foreign countries? ``

You are the only one stereotyping a large diverse set of people.

bbabu, jang and masanamuthu,

Do tell us how many OBC candidates have represented India in the Math, Physics, Chemistry or Computer Science Olympiads.

I even allow you to check the US, UK, French, South African and Australian teams to find people of Indian origin and if you find an OBC among them, I will grant you that number.

Do tell us how many OBCs are grandmasters in Chess.

Do tell us how many OBCs are scientists at TIFR.

And tell us how many OBCs are at Chennai Mathematical Institute and at Institute for Matematical Sciences at Madras University.

By the way, to avoid dealing with the 69% reservation (not that any OBC is going to apply to study Mathematics) in Tamil Nadu, Chennai Mathematical Institute is affiliated with Bhoj University in Madhya Pradesh for its BSc and MSc degrees.

bbabu, shut your mouth about how IITs and any engineering education are a ticket to a green card. Chennai Mathematical Institute`s graduates easily get admission for PhD at Sorbonne, University of Paris, Oxford, Cambridge, etc.

So tell us, how many Fellows of the Royal Society (FRS) you OBCs have produced?

Have you no shame in perpetuating the stereotype of an intellectually deficient person in foreign countries?

krishna_abcd #210

`` [You cannot selectively pick issues on what the govt do/does not do. ]

I did not pick the issue. If it hasn`t escaped your attention, the issue at hand was Reservations. ``

To be specific caste based reservations

`` [If you do not like caste based reservations that is fine. Please define MERIT or any acceptable system of admissions. If you apply anything you learned in life you will find out the current system without reservations is arbitrary. Do not tell me someone who gets 94% is going to make a better engineer that someone who makes 92% ? ]

There IS a strong correlation between academic brilliance, as understood in the conventional way (high grades in school, college, university etc.) and the quality of the end product. This is the basis on which most universities in India and abroad operate, and churn out brilliant people in all the different fields every year. While this does not mean that someone who did badly in school, college or university (you, maybe?) is definitely going to make a bad engineer, the probability is distinctly higher (for example - the OBCs, SCs/STs in India, the African Americans in the USA, etc.). ``

what do you mean ``quality of the end product`` ?

`` [If indeed subsidizing IITs does not benefit the general population, HOW does that validate reservations? ``

Why do you care about reservations in IITs ? The only reason is that it denies some Brahmin kids admissions. A valid counterpoint by politicians is what will they accomplish ? ]

Because a DESERVING AND MERITORIOUS PERSON IS GETTING SHAFTED. THAT`S WHY.

Is this too hard to understand? ``

Why do you care about deserving and meritorious persons ?

`` [If meritorious and hard working will eventually come up tops ALWAYS why do you care about reservations ? ]

As a group, the meritorious will always succeed. BUt there will be many casualties - poor families with meritorious students who will be denied. ``

what makes you think the system is fair to everyone ? Tell me how many rich and successful Brahmin professionas have helped the poorer members of their community.

`` [The American government will never change the rules to what you want. ]

You ARE an OBC. ``

For the record I am not an OBC.

`` [So therefore BECAUSE Nagas did not deny poor Brahmin kids admission, THEREFORE they deserve reservations? ``

Tell me how many Nagas have made use of reservations. How many have you meet in elite institutions ? I have been to IIT Madras, Anna University, IISc Bangalore and JIPMER Pondicherry. I have seen a few North Easterners in JIPMER. ]

Let`s first decide whether Resevations is good in principle. AFTER we decide that, THEN we can talk about whether Reservations are good in practice. ``

The way democracy works is to distribute the pie more or less evenly. IITs are freebies subsidized by the government. You may give a lecture about engineering excellence etc. It is about getting a green card and a high paying job. I know more civil engineers from IIT who work in the software industry in USA than in civil engineering.

It is easy to avoid govt interference and caste based reservations. That would mean making the IITs private. Every student will dishing out huge sums of money to attend the IITs. Your poor merit oriented student will still get shafted.

Re: # 212
VRV::

Points I raised where in response to some of the guys here.
``If brahmins are so meritorious they should go for next 10 noble prize .``
It was more like a taunt than anything else.
Well I just said that they have already produced 6-7.
After 60 years of reservations this challenge should be thrown at
SC/ST now. No where did I mention that Brahmins are the supreme race
on the earth.

Naipaul was born of Brahmin parents (As per GOI thats what is the definition of a Brahmin)
Whether Naipaul eats beef /Pork is irrelevant. Same goes with Amartya Sen.
The fact is in current day India going by Arjun Singh`s definition they are all Brahmins.
If they use time machine and become younger by 30-40 years.
They all will be appearing for college entrance exams as General Category students.
No matter what they believe in.

Brahmin dont believe in their superiority.
It is Govt of India which is reinforcing this idea by giving blanket
50% reservation to OBCs/SC/ST. As if other castes can never compete even
if their father is President of India ( Daughter of KR Narayanan got through quota)
. The fact is that govt believes that SC/ST are inferior.
Other wise why is that they are given
1)free prep courses in 10-12 std.
2)Free training courses for entrance tests.
3)Scholarships and books .
4)Age relaxation/ eligibility relaxation in Eng , Medical entrance.
5)Reservations in Eng , Medical entrance(Under Grad level).
6)Scholarship and books at engg/Medical school.
point 3-6 are repeated for post grad and Again for Jobs.
Then there are promotions in jobs.
This goes on for generations.

Any mind even with an iota of intelligence will find this criminal.
Then we find third generation of benificiaries telling us that
Brahmins are denying them oppurtunities.




`` Empirics tell that Brahmins are the most successful a la Jews.
Jewish people are semitic to the
point of being racists, u too want to go that way? ``

The whole discussion is about reservations. Please dont bring jews in.
Currently Is there any place in the world that has a limit on number of jews in Colleges ?
Well for Upper castes hindus it is there in India. Thats why they are raising their voice.
And you are calling them racist..
Are Brahmins at fault if they are more successful? Do we have to start penalizing them.
Reservations are not going to blur the caste identity. They are in fact going to
highlight the caste identities which had started blurring in urban India.
By giving preferential treatments to other castes, do you think these identities
are going to fade away anytime soon.
Who is being racist GOI or me.


``I dont know how enlightened you are. Anybody who knows Brahma is by theory a Brahmin.
If u r alluding to birth related Brahmins. I leave it to you...``

I am an atheist , Govt doesnt care what I believe in. The fact is that if I am born
of Upper caste parents, I am entitled to less number of seats.
If you think accepting that without questioning
is enlightenment then definitely I am not enlightened and I do not want this
kind of enlightenment. To me it looks like you never wrote any entrance exams
, never fought the hard way in India.



By the way here are few facts about Arjun Singh doing rounds in internet..

WHAT IS AN ARJUN SINGH SALE ?
Ans: 49.5% off

WHICH IS ARJUN SINGH`S FAVOURITE CITY ?
Ans: Kota

WHY DOESN`T ARJUN SINGH HAVE TOO MANY FRIENDS?
Ans: Because he`s `reserved` by nature .

WHY DID ARJUN SINGH LEARN ARABIC?
Ans: So that he could read `backwards`.

IF ARJUN SINGH WERE TO MAKE A CAREER IN FILMS, WHICH
JOB WOULD HE OPT FOR?
Ans: Choosing the caste .

Re: # 213

Krishna,

The sloka I gave and the sentence I gave below are not related. The translation u gave is correct. That`s what I am saying. If u r an enlightend person u see no distincion between persons.

Empirics tell that Brahmins are the most successful a la Jews. Jewish people are semitic to the point of being racists, u too want to go that way? OK.

Living among whites means facing racist taunts now and then. This is what Ranade felt and Dadabhai Nauroji felt when he was insulted for his skin colour by Lord Salisbury. The modern world (formally on paper& to a great extent in practice) moved very far on this issue and you see the change in North America now. If India too wants to become another America in Asia where people are not judged by the colour of their skin but the content of their character (Martin Luther King Jr), then these caste-race-colour based distinctions should taper-off. Else u`d find the TN-type caste wars in India and that`s not good for us.

History also proves that people who opposed this racist thinkg were also Brahmins (by birth - an accident). Eg. Ganapathi (PWG leader), late Vinod Mishra of MCC and many more in Bengal and EMS Namboothripad and his ilk (there was a big list of reformist thinkers and activists in Indian history, which u can guess). There were many people in India who reformed the evil practices in the religion were all Brahmins. They were reviled during their life times but now they are icons! Pl look beyond our life times.

I dont think nor any scientist found some exceptional god-genes in some races (Jews or Brahmins). If u can find pl read an old article of Dr. DL.Balasubrahmanyam of CCMB on the genetic makeup of duifferent races. There are no special genes in whites nor the balcks are deficient in brainy-genes. It`s upbringing and family orientation that matters. What`s the diff between a hafiz and normal muslim except that hafiz can recite quran by heart? hafiz practiced it otherd didn`t. It`s like a circusman. Pracice that matters but not the god-genes.
If u`re brought up in TN, then I can understand your anger.

India`s diversity and its development is not the development of a few races but development of all peoples of all religions and all races. .

If u think differently pl let me know.

#212 by VRV

[Tagore is a variant of Thakur, therefore is not a Brahmin. ]

You`re wrong. Thakur was an acquired last name. Tagores were 100% Brahmin. If you read the history of Calcutta, you will find that his family originally used to act as the priests for the fishing community to the south of Calcutta.

[>>C.V.Raman(Brahmin) <<

A traditional Brahmin but that`s incidental ]

But it bolsters the point, doesn`t it?

[>>S.Chandrasekhar(Brahmin) <<

You see him as a Brahmin but he`s first and foremost aan astrophysicist. He didn`t believe even in Jyothishaym. Then how much be qualifies to the title of being a Brahmin? ]

Because the Brahmin family tradition of scholarship is what produces these brilliant minds. And that is the point being made here.

[>>>Amartya Sen(Brahmin) <<<

He`s a sworn athiest. If u see him as a Brahmin, pl ask him when u meet him. U`d be shocked to hear what he thinks he`s. ]

You are missing the point. Also, a Brahmin, like every Hindu is perfectly free to believe what he wants - including being an atheist.

[V.S. Naipaul(Brahmin)

I am not sure of his community. He`s from West Indies who`s also eats pork and beef. ]

Same as my previous point.


[If we throw- back the question to you, out of hundreds of NP winners, most of them are westerners. Do you mean to say that these Christian, Jewish NP winners are all Brahmin? ]

No. The point is that, amongst the Nobel Prize winners IN INDIA, ALL are brahmins. The point was not that to be a Nobel Prize winner you have to be a brahmin. The tradition of learning and inquiry is present amongst many cultures in the world.
(This point was made in response to Jang`s question - if Brahmins are all that smart, they should be producing Nobel Prize Winners)

I think you should re-evaluate your logical thinking process.

[Pl, read this:

Vidya Vinaya Sampanne Brahmane Gavi Hastini Sunichaiswapaakesa Panditaassamadarsinaha.

I dont know how enlightened you are. Anybody who knows Brahma is by theory a Brahmin. If u r alluding to birth related Brahmins. I leave it to you... ]

No. That`s not what it means. What it means is:

``The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater.``

This is philosophy. Requires some thinking. Not the same kind of stuff as for example the book of Genesis. Where god says ``let there be Light`` and there`s light etc., and then god relaxes on Sunday - therefore that`s Sabbath, and producting Eve from Adam`s rib etc.

Re: # 208

I`ve missed the twists and turns this debate has gone thru`.

>>R. Tagore(Brahmin) <<<

Tagore is a variant of Thakur, therefore is not a Brahmin.

>>C.V.Raman(Brahmin) <<

A traditional Brahmin but that`s incidental

>>S.Chandrasekhar(Brahmin) <<

You see him as a Brahmin but he`s first and foremost aan astrophysicist. He didn`t believe even in Jyothishaym. Then how much be qualifies to the title of being a Brahmin?

>>>Amartya Sen(Brahmin) <<<

He`s a sworn athiest. If u see him as a Brahmin, pl ask him when u meet him. U`d be shocked to hear what he thinks he`s.

V.S. Naipaul(Brahmin)

I am not sure of his community. He`s from West Indies who`s also eats pork and beef.

H.Khurana ( ??? )

I am not sure. He even renounced his Indian nationality. Let`s forget about him.


If we throw- back the question to you, out of hundreds of NP winners, most of them are westerners. Do you mean to say that these Christian, Jewish NP winners are all Brahmin?

Pl, read this:

Vidya Vinaya Sampanne Brahmane Gavi Hastini Sunichaiswapaakesa Panditaassamadarsinaha.


I dont know how enlightened you are. Anybody who knows Brahma is by theory a Brahmin. If u r alluding to birth related Brahmins. I leave it to you...

Not content with killing Dalits, raping their women and setting fire to their huts, the OBCs are cheating the Dalits of their education quotas too!

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/jun/13inter1.htm?q=sp&file=.htm


The Rediff Interview/Social scientist P Radhakrishnan

`Dalits have not benefited from quotas`

June 13, 2006


Professor P Radhakrishnan of the Madras Institute of Development Studies is a well-known social scientist. Some of the key areas of his research include affirmative action; agrarian problems; backward classes and reservations; backward class politics; caste system; untouchability; emancipation politics; globalisation and many others.

He tells rediff.com`s Shobha Warrier how reservations in various forms came to be a part of Indian society and its ramifications in an exclusive interview.

When did reservations start in India?

It was actually started as a part of the patronage politics adopted by the British. As the administration of that time was monopolised by a particular group, there were demands from various groups, even with very little education, for representation.

Simultaneously, the British administration also looked into the representation of Muslims (it was known as representation then, not reservation) in public services and education. That was after the publication of the book Indian Mussalman by W W Hunter. So they were encouraging the Muslim community in some way or the other.

Any particular reason why the British administration stressed only on Muslims and not other communities? Divide and rule?

The Muslims were the rulers in India before the British came. They were also backward and not taking on English education. What is happening in north India was happening all over the country then.

This was one side. In south India, and also in Maharashtra, Brahmins monopolised the administration. In that context, the non-Brahmin movement started, and it was strong in the then Madras Presidency. The demand was for education and employment of non-Brahmins.

In 1926, the government introduced what was known as the Communal GO by which out of the government jobs available, Brahmins got some, Muslims got some and non-Brahmins got some. Unlike today, implementation was quite strict then. After five years, they even evaluated what returns each group got.

It was Babasaheb Ambedkar who brought in the idea of reservations. He kept himself away from the Congress and worked on his own. In 1919, he appeared before the South Burroughs committee and made a series of remarks. He spoke of how divided Indian society was and what could happen if oppressed groups were left out.

So, he was the first leader who spoke in favour of reservations?

I would say, yes. When the Simon Commission came to India in 1928, it was boycotted by the Congress but the oppressed classes took it as an opportunity to present their case. They thought the Congress rule would be Brahmin rule, and it would be worse than British rule.

They made several demands such as, if India were to have a Constitution, there should be constitutional safeguards for the oppressed. And, that included reservations in public services. Ambedkar even specified the percentage.

At that time, why didn`t they think of economic factors as the criterion for backwardness?

There was a lot of debate on the issue as some leaders wanted to have an economic criterion for reservation. But 90 per cent of the Indians were poor at that time. So, the argument was that reservation for all is reservation for none. It will not become an exception. So, they decided to club social backwardness and economic backwardness.

The original idea was to continue this reservation for just ten years. They thought things would change in that period.

Reservation which was meant for just ten years has been going on for nearly 60 years.

Ambedkar said there is nothing called a good Constitution or a bad Constitution. The quality of the Constitution depends on the working of the Constitution. Earlier, the Constitution worked because of the quality of leaders in Parliament. Subsequently power went into weaker hands. Now, power is in very weak political hands. They don`t have the vision the framers of the Constitution had.

Another reason why everything went wrong was because the implementation did not go right. The system which existed during British rule is not there now. We have provisions in the Constitution but we don`t have the mechanism to implement the programmes.

When did the idea of including Other Backward Classes in the reservation list originate?

The first commission was appointed in 1953. But there was a last minute volte face by the chairman of the commission itself. He went against the recommendations of the commission. After considerable deliberation on the recommendations, then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru refused to implement them. The decision to implement the recommendations was then transferred to the states.

The government issued a notice to the state governments that they can do what they want but reservation should preferably be on economic criteria. South India, because of the long history of movements, became the first to implement the recommendations.

You said after Independence, economic criterion was not considered for reservation because 90 per cent of the population was poor. Today, more than 80 per cent of the population is included in the OBC category.

In Tamil Nadu, 87 to 88 per cent of the population come under the reservation bracket. Groups are included in the list arbitrarily by the politicians in power. In each group, there is a creamy layer and they grab the opportunities.

So, it is because of this 69 per cent reservation that in the south Indian states there were no protests against the Mandal Commission report as happened in the north?

There were only pro-reservation agitations in the south.

Do Dalits in India feel cheated today because it is not they but the creamy layer of OBCs who are getting all the benefits of reservations?

Yes, that is a very important issue now. Nehru was indifferent to the reservations to OBCs. He was also against caste-based reservations while Ambedkar was for it; but Ambedkar also wanted to discontinue it after ten years.

The fact is, Dalits have not benefited much from reservations particularly because politicians are using the OBC category as a vote bank. Dalits are also a vote bank but they are small compared to the OBCs.

The recommendations made by the Mandal Commission are such that they dilute whatever facilities were given to Dalits. There is a long way for the Dalits to catch up with the advanced groups but politicians are not bothered.

There is a system in place for their well being but despite that, nothing much has been done.

You have to look at reservation at various levels; for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes on the one side and OBCs on the other. In the case of OBCs, many groups are advanced. They don`t need reservations. Because of them, the benefits do not reach the really needy. And, there is no calculation by the government on the population of the OBCs and how much should be allotted to them.

Instead of OBCs, they should take only the MBCs (Most Backward Classes) and address their social problems.

Are politicians manipulating the entire issue of reservations and dividing the country and the student community?

Students do feel that politicians are trying to divide them. Today`s politicians use reservations for garnering votes. So, there is a lot of anger in the student community.

As far as reservations are concerned, the government should have made an assessment of reservations in the last six decades. Then, if necessary, they should have come up with a better alternative.

Where will this lead to?

Now, the issue is in safe hands because the Supreme Court has intervened. It is something similar to what happened during Mandal. It is a pleasure to read the judgments. You see a lot of collective wisdom in their work.

My feeling is that there will be a parallel exercise on education also. Now, we have that exercise only on job reservations.

The youth of today are restless and full of resentment. Is it not dangerous?

`What more do the upper castes want?`

It is not dangerous. It is good. In a democracy, protests have to come out in some form or the other. I am impressed with the way they have organised the protests. It is all high-tech in tune with the globalised world.

In France, the student community protested against the labour laws and won. In Athens, students are protesting but here in India, the protesting students were silenced. Is it right?

It is not right to silence students but the Supreme Court has intervened and they were given an assurance. I would not approve of the government silencing the students but the Supreme Court did it after giving them an assurance. The court did it in the public interest because the government was not suffering, the patients were. I don`t think that amounts to silencing the students.

France is a developed country and this incident shows we are still a developing democracy. Yes, the question is, how can the State suppress students who are agitating for certain legitimate demands? But the students in India did not yield to the pressures of the State but listened to the wisdom of the judiciary. That is a very important issue. They seem to have a lot of faith in the judiciary.

A few months ago, you wrote an article, `The great education muddle, state failure and judicial jigsaw`. Why did you call it the great education muddle?

I wrote that in the context of Union Human Resources Development Minister Arjun Singh`s move to bring about the amendment. It is a great education muddle because there was a great opportunity for the government to reform the education system using directives of the Supreme Court.

No educational system in a large country like India can survive and improve without public-private partnership.

What will happen if the government extends reservations to private educational institutions? They will go before the Supreme Court and get the legislation stayed. If the Supreme Court does not stay the legislation, they will pull down shutters, saying enough is enough.

Students are bound to lose both ways, so also the State. It is in that context that I called the situation the great education muddle.

#202 by bbabu


[You cannot selectively pick issues on what the govt do/does not do. ]

I did not pick the issue. If it hasn`t escaped your attention, the issue at hand was Reservations.


[If you do not like caste based reservations that is fine. Please define MERIT or any acceptable system of admissions. If you apply anything you learned in life you will find out the current system without reservations is arbitrary. Do not tell me someone who gets 94% is going to make a better engineer that someone who makes 92% ? ]

There IS a strong correlation between academic brilliance, as understood in the conventional way (high grades in school, college, university etc.) and the quality of the end product. This is the basis on which most universities in India and abroad operate, and churn out brilliant people in all the different fields every year. While this does not mean that someone who did badly in school, college or university (you, maybe?) is definitely going to make a bad engineer, the probability is distinctly higher (for example - the OBCs, SCs/STs in India, the African Americans in the USA, etc.).

It is always those who do badly in exams that complain that the system is bad/biased.



[If indeed subsidizing IITs does not benefit the general population, HOW does that validate reservations? ``

Why do you care about reservations in IITs ? The only reason is that it denies some Brahmin kids admissions. A valid counterpoint by politicians is what will they accomplish ? ]

Because a DESERVING AND MERITORIOUS PERSON IS GETTING SHAFTED. THAT`S WHY.

Is this too hard to understand?


[If meritorious and hard working will eventually come up tops ALWAYS why do you care about reservations ? ]

As a group, the meritorious will always succeed. BUt there will be many casualties - poor families with meritorious students who will be denied.


[The American government will never change the rules to what you want. ]


You ARE an OBC.


[So therefore BECAUSE Nagas did not deny poor Brahmin kids admission, THEREFORE they deserve reservations? ``

Tell me how many Nagas have made use of reservations. How many have you meet in elite institutions ? I have been to IIT Madras, Anna University, IISc Bangalore and JIPMER Pondicherry. I have seen a few North Easterners in JIPMER. ]

Let`s first decide whether Resevations is good in principle. AFTER we decide that, THEN we can talk about whether Reservations are good in practice.

Most of the guys here think that the ``Arjun singh Bill`` is only for IITs IIMs and AIIMS

It is going to affect close to 100 deemed universities as well.

To begin with there are
20 NITs
Institutes like IIFT, IRMA, indian statistical institute, IT BHU, Indian school of mines , TIFR
Delhi school of economics .

All this is going to affect merit in a big way.

bbabu::
Regarding nagas not taking any seats. Please go and visit these institutes there are scores of people from northeast taking seats. some drop out in between the courses , some take more than the normal duration to clear the courses. Same goes with the SC/ST. Now with close to 50% seats being reserved dont you think it is going to hit quality very soon ?
Aso most of the nagas are chrisitian. Theywere never discriminated against. So who opressed them and when ?

Yadav`s of north are very influential and call them yaduvanshis (Descendant of lord krishna)
Never ever you would have heard of any atrocities committed against them. How on earth they are OBC`s. Jats are other influential caste of north.

This whole OBC thing is just ridiculous . It is only going to deteriorate the quality of engineers and doctors India churn out.

Lets just hope it doesnt get into Private sector.

Re: # 187

Well I am no Brahmin supremacist. But the records speak for itself.
Brahmins have nothing left to prove.
Here is a list of noble prize winners of Indian Origin

R. Tagore(Brahmin)
C.V.Raman(Brahmin)
S.Chandrasekhar(Brahmin)
Amartya Sen(Brahmin)
V.S. Naipaul(Brahmin)
H.Khurana ( ??? )

Also Prof Bhagwati is widely tipped to get noble prize for economics soon is also a brahmin.

Its high time OBC/SC ST produce some noble prize winners