Riba and the Pakistani Economy

Re: # 59

Excuse me, why the hell should I stay away from banking?? You want my money in your bank and you do not want to tell me what will you do with it?. If you haven`t noticed, it is this arrogance of the corrupt ruling class, which was the crux of my argument. This class consider itself above any accountability. Their arrogance has reached to this level that they have audacity to tie up prices of sugar with the bad sugarcane crop in Brazil. They don`t exactly say ``Jo ganna tum ne putna hay putt lo`` - yet - but they sure imply it with their actions.

Re: # 58
Lets c where we can agree:

(1) dream of a Pakisatn as an egalitarian welfare state is still achievable as long as they are willing to make sacrifices, totally with u, though our paths may be different.

(2) We both know u r not a banker

(3) Playing with the ding a ling can be much more productive....

Keep posting, but please stay away from banking..

Re: # 57

I am not as much a layperson as you think I am. I might not be a banker but I do have formal education in the subjects of Industrial and Labor laws and Laws governing industrial financing. So for the last time I urge you to have a focused and to the point discussion with me on this subject or you can still choose to keep picking up bones from that certain part of male anatomy as the punjabi proverb goes. I am committed to tell people that the dream of a Pakisatn as an egalitarian welfare state is still achievable as long as they are willing to make sacrifices.

Re: # 53

Let us examine what u said and now seem to retract:

You said......
{The first responsibility of Islamic government in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan will be to make arrangements and establish policies that are conducive to and facilitate the people of Pakistan to earn decent and honest living which is called Rizq-e-Halal. In order to achieve this objective we will have to eliminate the bloodsucking social class that has lost its fear of God. Those who do not fear God are the enemies of God and His people.}

Emphasis on eliminating the blood sucking social classes....

Then u go on to say.....
{Since interest and Riba is haraam, the institution of banking will be replaced by a federal government financial institution that will be called Baitul Maal or People`s Treasury}

Eliminate then replace with a federal govt financial institution....correct

Then u proceed to describe this new institution.......
{Initially, it will contain all the liquid assets that are currently owned by by all national and private banks}

Proposed Govt owned institution will contain all the liquid assets currently owned by all national of which only one is left and private banks. Correct. What u very clearly state is a nationlization, takeover of all customer deposits and private capital by the Govt and put it under the state umbrella. There is nothing ambiguous here. Customer deposits and private capital is private wealth which u very convieniently forgot or have no concept, more importantly u keep talking about currently held liquid assets? which for any bank can only be their LOANS to customers, investments, cash with other banks and cash held. Major portion of assets belongs to loans and investments, only someone with no knowledge of banking wud make that error of assuming banks have assets like machinery which can be taken over and converted with change of ownership.

Your ending statement on this particualr subject.....
{The role of institutionalized lending by any private or government institution, in the present day sense, will be abolished. THe trillions of rupees currently owned by these banks will be loaned to people who would want to establish a business}

Where are these trillions of dollars owned by banks that u intend to loan to people?? Shows someone shooting from his ass.

Since I had the audacity to challenge your copy and paste mentality, this is how you responded....
{Every chartered bank must establish a reserve with state bank, that must equal rupees to rupees with customer`s deposits. That is how a bank qualifies for running business in the country. State Bank keeps the checks and balance in this regard. So I am not talking about customer`s deposists to be used as a pool of funds to run the welfare schemes. Instead I am talking about putting all the liquid reserves into circulation. You should calm down.}

Again u demonstrate a copy and paste mentality and the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Every chartered bank must establish a reserve with the central bank, till here everything is fine, then u slip with the next blooper....that must equal rupees to rupees with customer deposits....if banks were required to maintain rupee to rupee of reserves ie 100% then how the hell wud they lend money and make profits? Do u understand now why ppl can lose their calm?? Its because u have no idea of banking like all the other fundos plagiarizing other people works and then trying to present a image of piety. Banks are required to maintaina fraction of their deposits as reserves with the central bank, restv they can use for their asset (loan) funding. Hund samaj ayee ke nahin?

Like I said b4, when u dont know the abcd of banking.....stop pretending and making an ass of yourself....

Re: # 55

``When we will establish a government that will not rule people of Pakistan but serve the people of Pakistan`` ............... but you already have a government that is serving you right here in michigan !

.......... you might be surprised but i agree with you on health care in the usa - it is a mess .......... but the answer is not in a beauracratic national health service - it can be done by regulating the insurance companies, the malpractice lawyers, the american medical association and expanding medicare and medicaid to insure the uninsured ....... i think governor romney is on the right track in massachusetts - you know that he is a fellow michigander, don`t you ? went to cranbrook, was a vp with bain and then founded bain capital, a very successful vc firm ......... why don`t you and i vote for romney as president in 2008 - it is a lot better than wating for the khilafat to be established in washington dc with marion barry as the first khalifa ........... look, they already have a khilafat in mogadishu and what has that done for them ?

........... urstruly, turn in your al-mohajiroon card and stop dreaming about establishing the khilafat because pretty soon they will find osama, his one-eyed brother-in-law and zawahiri, the man with the mark of the devil on his forehead ............. go down to eight mile and get a few lap dances, it will make you feel better - if you want, i will come along ........... here again, i agree with you that the dancers should be nationalized - after all, they are a national treasure !

Re: # 54

I do not belive in the capitalist propaganda that nationalized institutions are always corrupt and bad. All around the world, government take steps what is best for their citizens. That is why we see universal health coverage run successfully by Canadian government and almost all of Western Europe.

In Pakistan failure was because of a bloodsucking lawless class who consider itself above any law. In 58 years of Pak history not a single government has ever been accountable to the people of Pakistan. They consider the wealth of Pakistan as the milk of their mothers and pakisatn as their personal fiefdom. When we will establish a government that will not rule people of Pakistan but serve the people of Pakistan, and people of Pakistan will know that it is their country and its wealth is their wealth they will chop the heads of those who even think of being unaccountable to the people. That will be the day when a police wala will address a tongawala as ``Janab` and not as ``oye maa yawway aidhar aa``. THis is our destination. In order to get to this destination we will have to eliminate the ghulamzaday and haramzaday left by british and propped by neo-colonialsts.

Re: # 46

urstruly,

``Since interest and Riba is haraam, the institution of banking will be replaced by a federal government financial institution that will be called Baitul Maal or People`s Treasury. Initially, it will contain all the liquid assets that are currently owned by by all national and private banks. `` .................. so you are proposing that we nationalize the banks (once again) but this time put maulvis in charge of the ledgers instead of clerks and babus ? ......... so we get rid of competitive commercial banks and replace them with yet another government run agency run by corrupt officials - how will that make things better ?

............. like i said, the bearded classes keep on wanting to reinvent the wheel instead of simply accepting the fact that a round wheel is better than the triangular design suggested by primitive bedouins ............

........ and you must really think that everyone is stupid when you say: ``These loans will be absolutely interest free, that is, Qarz-e-Hasna. However, the borrower will have to pay back the loan in a fixed time (it may be in installments) with a mark-up that would be equal to the rate of inflation for that period. In addition, borrower would also pay the administrative charges (which will include the wages for those who administer the loan process i.e. baitul maal employees etc).``................ that is exactly what my bank in pakistan does today when they pay me the ``profit`` - the profit just happens to be pretty close to the goinng interest rate ................. remember, inflation + admin charge is still interest regardless of what you call it ............. all you are doing is putting lipstick on a pig and trying to pass it off as a horse ......... shame on you !

Re: # 47 rf786

Every chartered bank must establish a reserve with state bank, that must equal rupees to rupees with customer`s deposits. That is how a bank qualifies for running business in the country. State Bank keeps the checks and balance in this regard. So I am not talking about customer`s deposists to be used as a pool of funds to run the welfare schemes. Instead I am talking about putting all the liquid reserves into circulation. You should calm down.

It is a tragedy of our day that as people hear the word `Islamic`` with anything they become trigger happy and start shooting in the air mindlessly. Islamic welfare state is inevitable. In such a tightly knit world where even a man living in a shanty town in Bhai pheru can see on his TV that there are countries out there where even dogs have health insurance whereas he is being forced to feed larvae ladden water to his children, then it is just matter of time that he will come out with guiloutines. The wave of social justice and economic equity of people is blowing in full swing in South America, while the testicles of global neo-colonialism is tied with posts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Once people have the power, it is hard to take it back. In Pakistan, the corrupt oppressive class with their guns tanks and F-16s; and half a million military goons and a dedealy police force can oppress people for only so long. The attitude of this oppressive class is evdent on this website where they will do anything to distract people from their destiny. But it is written on the walls that all walls of oppression will eventually crumble.

An ideal situation is that this oppressive blood sucking class relents its hold on state resources volunatry and a mgna carta like social contract gets establish volutarily without blood letting, but unfortunately that will only happen when pigs will fly and fish will ride bicycles. The other way is the revolution with gloutines and every day is bringing us closer to that day.

Re: # 41

Zeemax:

``Japan reduced interest rates to zero and has maintained it at zero since a few years. But even zero rates are still interest rates in an overall interest rate regime....

So why do the banks continue to loan money. Whats going on?

Quite realistically, many people reject the interest-free system outright because it is difficult to believe the people in the 7th century knew about the vast implications of an interest based regime...

Interest has been historically seen as an intrinsic evil. So it is not just the Quran which condemns the practice, but the Torah also. Roman law also introduced penalties against the use of compound interest.

Re: #48 by rf786

Morally we suffer from selective amnesia....

Maybe others do. Maybe even others who take the same line as me do. But I would like to think that I don`t. I agree that there are other problems within our societies that need to be addressed. I agree that corruption needs to be tackled. But that doesn`t mean that I should turn a blind eye to this type of exploitation. Does it?

I could not get the actual text of the Al-azhar fatwa itself, although I got a few news reports. If you have a copy let me know.

Meanwhile you did not answer my point on the Quranic verse.

Thanx

Musa