Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem”

dullabhatti#359:

Most of the hindus and sikhs living in those muslim majority areas were khatris who do not marry their cousins; indeed marry within the same subcaste of khatris was also forbidden, although I have recently seen somm bollywood marriages between Kapoors, this was a strict no-no in the old days.

Dr. Cheema sahib,

As Mohammad Hamid has tried to warn you umpteen times, you are casting pearl before swine, or as we'd say in South Asia, bhains kay aagay been bajana...

Some of us have enjoyed watching this debate (if you could even call it that) from the sidelines because most of these very same, well reasoned, arguments have already fallen upon these same (and similar) deaf ears, with equally crude and crass responses by the so-called guardians of piety. After a while one gets burnt out, as you surely will, in the fullness of time.

As the oldest alleged murtid on Chowk (dating back to October 1997) I've seen many a crop of these self-appointed champions of Islam.

Do not be too impressed. Some of these so-called Islamophiles are real Munafiqs. I happen to know for a fact that some of these arm-chair jihadis are just frustrated, burnt out, marginally functional pathetic drunkards with manifest signs of alcoholic dementia, who do not have a life otherwise. They are empty vessels that make a lot of noise. They deserve pitty, not revulsion, (though revultion is natural). They are ones who hang on to big titles that they keep by corruption and manipulation. They sell their souls to the devil, they use prostitution and bribery and other unsavory methods in their daily lives and then turn around and lecture the world on Islam while drowned in their drunken stupor. These are the pathological liars who out to impress an anonymous crowd to massage their fragile and bruised egos by making up fictious stories of glorious deeds and remarkable possessions they have.

Don't pay any attention to those kind, just ignore them.

...SR

SSA Paaji;

You are most probably right. It is fascinating to see Dullah Bhatti commemorated, despite being a muslim, in Lohri etc by non-muslims. There is a lot to be learnt from this alone, I reckon.

Cheemay bhai, you said cousin marriages are cultural in Punjab...but there is no evidence Hindus practised cousin marriage in pre-islamic Punjab...e.g. Jatts don't marry with in the same tribe something that is still practised by jatt muslims in Punjab as is by jatt sikhs and hindus. how did this practice then start? we know some sikhs and hindus who lived in muslim majority areas of Punjab, baclochistan or NWF also started practicing cousin marriages. so that might look like cultural practice now if everyone in the town is doing it but its origin is not cultural.

Re: # 356

By the way, I don't have any authority to give anyone advice on theology, matters related to social sciences or anything else. If I thought that (which I didn't) I was wrong. I also want to make it clear that I am not here to defend one culture over another. I am only defending reason and that is not the property of one culture or civilisation but of mankind (sexist word, don't you think) at large.

I thought I should make it clear.

By the way, how many people committing a crime actually even get to the point of being taken to court in the Islamic Republic? There seem to be people taking bribes, stealing public property, destroying what belongs to the nation as whole, even raping and killing (one of my uncle's is a small town arms dealer! he got woken up one evening to supply ammunition to two separate parties in the nearby "pind", shooting at one another; he was, of course, delighted at the prospects! I am sure the Americans feel the same) and not so much as a call to the local police station made. Then one would ask what the police would have done if they WERE involved!....this could go on for ever; I am sure you are intelligent enough.

Re: # 222

I believe yor query is about this entry of yours. If I am wrong please let me know. I have been operating all day so a little worn out; forgive me if what comes out is a bit sloppy.

I have already answered your first question related to prevelance of first cousin marriages being a cultural peculiarity of Punjabis. My answer contained statistics from australia, related to the Lebanese Muslim community here; where I work, we have a strong Lebanese presence (largest Sunni Lebanese presence outside Lebanon) in West Sydney and being a doctor, I see the results of such unions day in day out; similar, though not through personal experience, experiences have been related to me by colleagues working in London areas with strong Bangladeshi, Egyptian and Somali communities. The Pakistani experience is personal too as I have worked in those areas of Birmingham.

As far as Ghazzali is concerned, I am not familiar with what you wrote; but Ghazzali is not who invented Islam, or is he? His observation is exactly that; an observation and comment as yours or mine. An interpretation, for want of a better word. Same applies to your suggestion that somehow Mr Jaffir Sadiq and Shah Wali-ul-llah are somehow undisputed "interpreters" of religious text; Their interpretation is again, for the second time, exactly that; THEIR interpretation.

Evolution: First a few facts that it occurs and I see evidence of it day after day. We are talking about a timescale of at least 3000 million years; do you know how many years that is. We have already seen examples of "human selection" with breeds of domesticated animals. We have bacteria (some of the simplest life forms) that develop resistence to antibiotics that, in the initial phases, used to kill them. It can virtually develop even after one dose of an antibiotic. We have marsupials in Australia that, genetically speaking, have common gene pools (hence ancestery) with land animals elsewhere (the deer and the kangaroo for example); yet due to geografical variations, they have evolved very differently. In humans, how would you explain "Sickle Cell Trait" in people who come from parts of Africa and mediterranean. It confirs resistence to Falciform Malaria and it had evolved during the course of very recent human history.

On a lighter note, in socio-cultural terms, this very website, look around you. It probably started as a small blog, by a handful of people, now it has "evolved" into a place where so many people are interacting and exchaning information. Substitute this concept with any other example around you; we see "simple" things becoming "complex" during the course of time. Man wasn't always this smart you know. There are still tribes, not just in Africa - that would have been an easy example though - in parts of micronesia and south pacific, along the northern and north-west coast of Australia that live in jungles, still practice cannbilism and have very little contact with the outside world. One such tribe was only recently "discovered" by an Australian explorer; when someone dies at a younger than usual age, that is considered "magic" and the "person held responsible" is identified by the aggrieved family member, which in the case of this documentary was a 9 year old by, and eventually eaten; to counter this "bad magic".

Now your question as to who may be, if any behind all this; I don't know. "It ain't me bro!" (a little joke, sorry). Ithought that was the same question "Is there a God?" rephrased a different way, is it not? Mahfari sahib (or is it sahiba? sorry a sincere query), I can't prove the presence or absence of a Negative! No one can. Bertrand Russel had this analogy of an "outer celestial teapot" (a teapot in outer universe. If I were to say that such teapot exists, can you prove me wrong? Of course not; you can try all you like, there is no way in this world you can. Yet we both know it is an absurd idea; don't we?

Another little example (may be not as good); We often say that God created the universe etc., made Adam and Eve and all the rest...Amen..What was there before that? we don't know really do we? But in essence, there has to be a point "in time - however you define it", when nothing else existed but God. So are we saying that his property of being a creator hadn't been realised at this stage. So we are talking about God - the would-be creator; that can't be God because his faculties aren't fulfilled yet and the un-fulfilled can't be God? or can it? Lets move on a bit. Suppose the argument that God is infinite, and has always existed, transcends time etc. etc... Where does the universe fit into all this? Has IT always existed as well? Does that mean it is God's twin? Isn't that shirk? - the biggest "crime" in faith terms (Islamic monotheistic perspective). Problemis, either the universe exists or god; NOT BOTH.

As Ghalib would say:
"Jabke tujh bi kuchh naheen maujood;
phhir yeh hangama aye khuda keya hai"

This is just to answer your insistence. at the end of the day, the onus of proof lies not on me to "disprove a negative, but for you to "prove a positive"; can you?

As far as your queries about India and Laddu are concerned, please feel free to ask Laddu what he means. You may have to wait his return for a couple of months though.

Re: # 354 Violence by choice or violence for the sake of violenceis condemnable and it can never be justified by any divine or human reasoning.

And you did not comment on hte questions of your 49 interact's answers...please doanswer after reading my interacts.

As to verses you have mentioned, they are part and parcel of Quran and they are toexhort thehuman beings to face the inevitable reality of violence when someone is bent upon destroying your identity and mere existance,and in self defence raising arms is inhuman? It isthe most humane aspect of human natureand bravery is not facing the realities,bravery is to facing uptohterealities? In entire life of Holy Prophet peace be upon him ,there werenot more than 1000 persons died from both sides as a result of struggle .... which as per your favourite evolutionary ideas was survival of the fittest!.... Even in the most so called civilized societies the violence hasnotbeen finished and it is a painful relaity.

I consider imprisonment of human beings as the worst form of violence and I merequote that in UK alone over 82000 prisoners are in jailsand in PUnjab whose population is many times more than UK's there are 100000 ( about) compare the ratio with populkation then you willknow the levelof violence and intolerance in the society and this is agaisnt the backdrop that in Pakistan the sytems is far more corrupt and shoddy one.


To fight for one'srights and survivalis not exhorting toviolence and It willneevr be, fight of people in Kosov, Chechenya' Palestine

Re: # 331

Zeemax, I really did mean truce, so Paaji, Jaan deyo hun.

Also, since you have previously explained about "bachpan say shauq..", I can't by definition be a murtid as I never consciously accepted faith in the first place; may be that may make it easier for us to get along.

Thanks; and I do mean it sincerely.

Re: # 333

Thanks; I did fall asleep so apologies.

Any society in the world is suspiscious of the "alien" whoever that might be. I have lived in the "east" and "west":, sometimes simultaneously due to my father's job etc., and I must say, the amount of intolerence I see within our beloved Pakistan has no comparison elsewhere. I am the first person in my family, for generations, that has "married out" to a "non-jatt" woman; perhaps a hangover from our cultural past, I don't know.

How are minorities treated in Pakistan? I won't make any comments of my own here.

Generally, despite 9/11, Muslims have been treated much more fairly than what would have happenend if the shoe was on the other foot. People are intrigued and they have every right to ask questions about something that can be capable of this much "divinely sanctioned" hatred towards the rest of humanity. How else would you "interpret" the violent verses in the Koran; and please don't say the same thing as "the Bible" does too; that doesn't make it allright.

As for Salman Rushdie, Kauser Niazi might have been a factor in Pakistan. The main protests and violent outbreaks were in the UK where I was living at the time; it was all organised and conducted by homegrowns.

As far the question of anti-semitism is concerned, it simply means not to kill jews for being jews. No one has stopped anyone from speaking their mind about Judaism itself; it remains open to critique as any other philosophical tradition. Personally I think Judaism has a lot to answer for; for a start it is the PRIME patriarchal, misogynistic, racist and anti-human philosophy; then, it has given birth to two illegitimate offshoots, only making matters worse for the last two millenia. Now that is "anti-judaism", not "anti-semitic". I don't want to kill anyone, jewish, christian, muslim, buddhist, hindu etc.

The very fact that all of us, of reasonably equivalent intelligence as humans, have diffrent interpretations (or lack) of the "divine" is a testament that one cannot make a system of conduct for the society at large based on a supposed divine providence. I mean, even the "believer" on this very small cross section of society don't see eye to eye on the most simple of things.

Re: # 350 take care!

Re: # 348 Dear it has alsoincreased inequality,blood shed,environmental degradation,if a medicine kills 70 persons and cures 30 is it advisable to use for 100 people?

in #349 the phrase in the last sentence should be "..the dictator should be kicked out.."

mahfari bro: nice chatting with you. have to go.

#347 unfortunately, our nwfp brothers had to learn the hard way that mullahs have nothing to offer other than big talk. but better late than never - i loved the statement by ANP leader yesterday (maslihat chahihay, beghairai nahin) as he stood shoulder-by-shoulder with nawaz sharif and zardari (i think the remark bolstered sharif's demand that the dictator not be kicked out of his illegal office as soon as possible, without compromises).

#345 globalization is a huge and complex issue with both fantastic opportunities and enormous problems.

so, it is simplistic to say it is good only for those already in power - e.g. globalization has turned virtually all of Asia and Latin America into rapidly developing economies that have changed the lives of billions (not millions) of people. otoh, globalization is changing the face of the planet itself- and we forget that humans on earth are like the thin film of bacteria on teeth, leading a precarious existence.

Re: # 346 They always understood and its making wasnot by these Mullahs itwasby educatedsoulsliekIqbal, Jinnah and others , but they were notcalled secualrsand they arenot but yes they were alsonot called Muslimsby Mullahs!

Mullahs are forceof status quo,not of change and perhapsof retrogression in some cases.But MMA did one good thing in NWFP that after death of a person the land share willautomatically transfer to daughters/women instad of forcible delivery to her brothers and male relatives as perthe cases.But it is very rarethat gooddeedslike this weredone.