Persecution of Religious Minorities In Islamic Countries

Re: # 469
If this is the twisted understanding you have of Islam, I wonder what you know about your own religion!

Urstr...
If New and Old Testament clearly describes Muhammed as the last prophet, why jews and christians do not admit Muhammed as prophet? Christians regularly confers Sainthood. Why Christians even do not treat Muhammed as Saint (at least)?
Muhammed could have appeared in some other place, but unfortunately, every Prophets of your Abrahamic religions have taken birth in the same place. That make people suspicious. Except Jesus, the people outside Arab Land were not aware of arrival of such Prophets!!! Muhammed had to fight with sword and kill people to convince that he is a prophet!!!! And neighbouring Persia has to get that message after the fall of Sassanid empire at the hand of Arab Raiders!!!!

Re: # 467
You're one ailing man! Allah will surely question you about your warped way of promoting a pretender, a wanna-be who called himself Mahdi, Isa, Maryam, a 'nabi' and what not! You're living a life of deception; continue with it....

I have scores of translations too, and I've done my comparisons. You haven't! The myopic translations that you're glued to are 'doctored' versions.

May the collective curses of over a billion men of God and admirers of Muhammad (peace on him) hit the liars where it hurts.

Tahir,

This is why in #464 I cited varoius references of "khatam" (seal) that illustrate "greatest", but not "last".

Furthermore, I have quoted Quran to show continuation of revelation via messenger (rasool).

I am comfortable with my faith in Islam and feel no need to persecute others. But if you want to persecute others, what can I say? That's the difference between you and me ... and life goes on!

Now this is the 'ikhtitaam' the END, unless you insist on being a prophet yourself!

Re: # 464

Stutter, you're stuttering again by quoting dubious hadith. You've perverted the meaning and distorted your own view of the Qur'an.

Mirza's coming/going was never ever foretold by Muhammad (peace on him). If you inist on believing cooked up hadith, then you're responsible for your so-called persecution. You've prostituted yourselves sitting right in the lap of the British.

Mirza was only a model of a lying fake prophet. His Arab teacher warned him, "Don't claim that you're a prophet."

51 I.e., the last of the prophets, just as a seal (khatam) marks the end of a document; apart from this, the term khatam is also synonymous with khitam, the "end" "conclusion" of a thing: from which it follows that the message revealed through Muhammad the Qur'an - must be regarded as the culmination and the end of all prophetic revelation (cf. note 66 on the first sentence of the second paragraph of 5:48, and note 126 on 7:158). See also note 102 on 21:107.

I’ll try to wrap up this “last prophet” issue …


Belief regarding “last prophet”

This belief is rooted in ahadith that are cited often but are poorly understood. A good example is the hadith quoted by Urstruly … ”I am the last prophet and my mosque is the last mosque”.

Ummah tends to focus on the “last prophet” part of such ahadith, without noticing the “last mosque” part of it. As I’ve explained in #332, this hadith actually suggests coming of future prophets … and suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the greatest model for the future prophets.


Other scriptures

Urstruly, you claimed that Hindu, Jewish scriptures foretell coming of “last Prophet”. Did these scriptures mention “last prophet”, or a “great prophet”? You tend to play with words … assigning them the meaning that fits your belief. Re-read the “last prophet/last mosque” hadith above for clarification.


Quranic view

Quran, not even once, declares Muhammad (pbuh) to be the last prophet! If Hindu and Jewish scriptures mentioned “last prophet” (according to Urstruly) … then how come Quran forgot to mention that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet?

Quranic declaration of “Khatam-un-Nabiyeen” means greatest prophet, and not the last prophet. I have seen enough references … Khatam-ul-Muhaqaqeen, Khatam-ul-Auliya, Khatam-ul-Mufasareen, Khatam-ul-Muhadaseen to suggest “greatest” … but not “last”.

To further illustrate this point, here’s a Qurnic reference:

”It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah.s permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.” (42:51)


Future prophet foretold by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself foretold coming of a future prophet. He (pbuh) referred to this prophet as “Jesus Christ” … because of numerous parallels between this future prophet and Jesus Christ from two thousand years ago.

Ironically, ummah thinks that Jesus Christ from two thousand years ago will descend from the skies to fulfill this prophecy. Such views drive a wedge between reason and religion and have turned Islam into a fairytale religion ... just like so many other religions in the past.


And lastly …

Contrast the ummah’s “last prophet” belief or “Jesus-in-the-sky” belief with Urstruly’s article of faith (post #328), where he stated:

”12. A Muslim believes that faith is not complete when it is followed blindly or accepted unquestioningly. 13. Man must build his faith on well-grounded convictions beyond any reasonable doubt and above uncertainty.”

But when questioned on “last prophet” issue, he claimed (in #220) ”No belief is right or wrong. A belief is a belief -either you believe in it or you don't”

That’s a load of double standards … typical of ummah's senseless ramblings ...

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Tahir Sahib, you’ve aired empty rhetoric but are yet to present a coherent argument. So pardon me if I keep ignoring your inane comments.

#462 Tahir, why is it so convenient for Mullahs such as yourself to make someone a British or an Israeli agent? Iranians are doing the same, so are Pakistanis. Can you not discuss an issue on it’s own merit? That’s like someone blaming Mullahs as being agents of the camel lovers of Saudi Arabia that have no other agenda but to destroy humanity and they have been doing it for 1500 years. Your current Khalifa is hiding in a cave like his hero did. The rest of the world is not interested in who was YOUR last prophet. You just make sure that he is resting in peace. Because if he ever woke up and looks at his followers, he will most likely convert to Buddhism and get out of that filth infested region the first opportunity he gets. You guys are doing a good job in honoring his sacredness by killing people in his name. Keep it up.

Re: # 460
"Note that this ”last prophet” foretold coming of a future prophet! And therein lies the rub. Did Allah forget to mention this "last prophet" belief in Quran? Or are you making it all up?"

You definitely grew up consuming cow-dung, Stutter-2. Your fake prophet was a British plant. Live with that....

Allah will deal with those who make a mockery of His Word (by twisting their meanings to suit their rotten selves) and sell His verses for worldly gain.

Your anti-Jihad (struggle in every sphere) pretender could not extiguish the flame. Join the Bahais and move to Israel.

Re: # 459
Urs...
Ans: My basic question is still unanswered. How you identify, who is the last prophet? In that matter who is the prophet?
Regarding 124000 prophets, have anybody checked who are these prophets. You can not present arbitrary number. You need to substantiate that. If I tell "there are 25 planets revolving around sun", that does not make it fact. Have you identified other prophets? If these prophets are sent by the same God, then why there are contradictions and resultant bloodsheds?
Regarding Muhammed, he himself had claimed to be prophet and fough several wars to establish it. I am sure, that is not the way the prophethood works. Generaly kings or gansters establish their supremacy this way and adopt new title.
There is nothing called Hinduism. Indian philosphy evolved with time. Initialy when people were afraid of natural forces, they used to treat natural force as God. Varun, Mitra, Indra etc...These were Vedic Gods. Post Vedic ( Vedantic), Indians have tried to infuse philosphy and come up with concept of Brahman etc... When social structure become stable and prosperity at its peak, Indians devided Gods with various departments like God of Wealth (Laxmi), God of Art and Education (Saraswati)....It was the puranic era. Athenian (Greece) culture, in that respect, was very similar to this. That was the golden age of ancient period. It is the time, when painting, sculpure, literature, sports developed and the manifestation of creativity is visible through these Gods...
Subsequently all these concepts merged with local cultures and created set of Gods and its forms. Like Vishnu has its different form in Orissa (Jagannatha),amilnadu( Balaji), Andhra Pradesh(Venkatesharya),Kerala (Aiyappa)...

In India, there is no concept of prophet (who claims to hear/listen the word of God and fought wars to establish it). Budhdha was pure atheist and Budhdhists do not believe in God or Hell and Heaven...
Which Indian scripture specifies Muhammed as prophet?
Vishnu appeared in several Avatars(forms). That is also signifies the evolution of life form in very crude way. So, these avatars are not, in any sense has to be preachers. If you are referring to Kalki avatar, then it is the harm done by stupid person like Joker Naiks distortion to cheat people. Kalki avatar somehow have to appear in South India. That have also several versions.

Urstruly (#459);

”… All of these Prophets predicted the coming of the Last Prophet … Hindu scriptures predict the coming of a last teacher … The Jewish scriptures told about that last prophet …”


Note that this ”last prophet” foretold coming of a future prophet! And therein lies the rub …

Did Allah forget to mention this "last prophet" belief in Quran? Or are you making it all up?

Re: # 458

It is a Muslim beleif that eveywhere in the world where there is Monotheism practiced, there must have been a Prophet sent by Allah who taught people so. Monotheism is also a core belief in orginal hinduism in oldest scriptures until it got corrupted into the present form. The person or persons who introduced Monotheism in unadulterated form to people of area now called hindustan was or were also prophets from God. So the keyword to check whether a prophet was sent to a group of people is the teachings of Monotheism. According to mulsim beleif close to 124,000 prophets were sent to all parts of humanity.
All of these Prophets predicted the coming of the Last Prophet and gave hints to his personal attributes. For example, prehistoric Hindu scriptures predict the coming of a last teacher of Monotheism in the land of sands; it also predicted that he would be born orphan. The Jewish scriptures told about that last prophet even more explicitly and even named him Paraclete (Anglican) or Parakalytos (Latin) in old testament which are equivalent to the Arabic name Ahamad meaning blessing (or harbinger of blessing). The oldest preserved copies of Jeudo-Christian scriptures mention the name Parakalytos. In newer versions out of contempt of Islam the Jeudo-Christian scholars deleted the name Parakalytos (pbuh) and replaced it with the phrase 'harbinger of good news" which is literal translation of word Ahmad. The most outspoken sign of Prophet Mohammad's (pbuh)was the complete discription of the physical appearance of his person written in the jeudo-Christian Old and New testamants. the detail was so explicit that it even mentioned the presence of a large black mole between his shoulders - referred to as seal of last prophet. Our Holy prophet (pbuh) had that seal between his shoulders.
As to the question of Middle east, the answer is simple - it was destined that the last prophet would appear in Arabia, therefore, he must be a person who was well appraised of the local ethos, history, and language. For Muslims it is quite immaterial that he was an Arab. he might very well be a Punjabi; but as described above the generations who were foretold about his apperance were generally concentrated in Arabia at that time. In ancient hindustan even though the message was there but it was lostt in the corruption of Polytheism. There was no immediate and living group in the genration at that time who even remembered this core message.

Re: # 328
Urs...
"Mohammad (pbuh) is the last in the chain of all prophets"

Ans: Couple of questions-
How you know that, Muhammed is the last prophet? Is anybody tracking it? What are the methods adopted to track it?

In Tibet, they God selects new Dalai Lama through the other monks from the monastery.

Why all these prophets need to be from middle east deserts , that also within a span of 1000 years?

rashid (#450),

Actually it get more interesting; consider another gem from Urstruly’s list of 50-something articles of faith (#328):

”Islam … forbids compulsion in religion …”

But jihadis like Urstruly also insist that a person should be killed if he leaves Islam.

Fanatics like him fail to appreciate the blatant contradiction: killing a person on basis of faith, while insisting that there is no compulsion in Islam. Go figure …

+++

Urstruly, I am sure you can explain all this …

It is not only other religious minorities but also Islam and Muslims who are at times abused by our fellow Pakistani.

Here is a deplorable excerpt by Mal'oon Tab'an Khamosh (aka TK) of pkpolitics.com

....

TK on April 19th, 2008 12:52 pm

@Sarosh:

Who exactly died and made YOU champion of the rights of “noble ladies” alongwith the head of the bureaue of “vice & virtue” on pkpolitics?… Strong language isn’t just offensive to “noble ladies” it is (or ought to be) offensive to everyone. Offensive language is used to jarr yer fuQQen mind. For you to assume it is offensive only to ladies is Sexist and shows the different boxes that you put these genders in (mentally at least).

You are making sexist claims about the rights of “noble ladies” and assuming people are of a certain religions? It has nothing to do with a “common point of reference” . The sad thing is that you felt against the wall because 3 or 4 people started opposing your view. Do I support publishing someones phone number on the net? NO. Does that bother you? OH NUHOO! As long as human anatomy is not mentioned.. You are JESS FINE!

Don’t make me quote some of the colorful language that the prophet and the sahaba themselves used. Oh wait! I can’t.. because punk-a$$ faux-polite dillweeds like pkTaliban have made sure over the centureis we don’t get the see the real colorful language that your holy-cows used in their daily lives.

You want some colorful language that will put Tab’an Khamosh to shame? Go pick up some volume of Hadith and read the manner and mode of the reproduction of Shayaateen

Oh and don’t forget to read the Quran where it talks about women being your “land” in whcih you can “enter” from the “front” or from the “back”.. (as long as you do not transgress the laws of God — ie; NO ANAL SEX WITH UR WIVES DUDES! )

....

A lot of similar deplorable examples are available at:

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com

Re: # 451
"Khaanay ko Roti nahin, Peenay to Saaf Pani Nahin,
Bijli Nahin....Pakistanis can't find anything
better to do then this continued emphasis on a small minority"

This specially 'manufactured minority' keeps making a nuisance of itself by being repeatedly insidious. Had you read some history, you wouldn't be wasting time with THEM.

None of the questions I asked these stooges were never answered by THEM. There is no 'continued emphasis', the people already know THESE people who deliberately instigate and provoke sitting in far-away lands. Its is THEY who have nothing better to do. What is better, to counter evil designs or to go join it?

While it might feel very American to speak on THEIR behalf, we continue to LIVE without much of what you mentioned. Those who insist that THIS is all one needs in life, wouldn't even survive for a minute if the luxuries were taken away.

You underestimate your ex-countrymen Mr. Siddiqi. God is with the truthful and the patient. And only He knows who is truthful. Don't be the devil's advocate.

Changing the name of Chak Digiyaan or Chenab Nagar to RABWAH only means something to THIS minority.