Long Live Pakistan

#22 cheema sahib: greetings. thanks for the clarification. i have to run now, but will go over the poem again in light of what you say.

#21 Faruk: glad to see we are on the same page then. i would only add that going beyond not doing too much damage, the government also has an essential and increasingly important role in society - serving as the traffic cop not just on the streets but also on issues ranging from food quality to environmental controls to the administration of justice and defense of the basic rights.

All these aspects go unattended to in Pakistan, where the struggle right now is at the more basic level of simply freeing Pakistanis from rogue generals and ghoondas posing as politicians.

Re: # 7; tahmed sahib

this poem was written in 1951/2 .... only a few years after independence ..... wasn't just "bemoaning" dictatorship but the premise for partition and the so-called independence too

re: tahmed32#20
I agree with your position which I understand to be developing a system where the people in power cant do too much damage.

Regards,

Faruk

#18 Faruk: I think it is important to end dictatorship and introduce the rule of law in Pakistan for the ultimate goal of a peaceful and progressive Pakistan. That is all. And individuals are relevant only to the extent they are part of the problem or part of the solution to the above goal. Hope this explains.

#16 hamidm: I dont need to jump onto anyone's boat, since I am not up the creek as you act like you are. And why, sitting in michigan, you seem to have this need to side with whoever you think is going to be in power in Pakistan is beyond me.

You dont need to be a lota, so break this habit of turning your spout to whatever direction you think the sun is rising. Start acting like your own man, proud and free like the fur trappers and moonshiners of michigan used to be. :-)

re:hamdim2#17

Are you suggesting that Musharraf had a choice 8 yrs ago?

He had to take over in national interest. Even Tauheed who hates Musharraf now will tell you that....

If Kiyani has to make the "meray aziz hamwatnon" speech it will be a selfless act for the nation. Just wondering will it be this year or next year.

Regards,

Faruk

Re: # 15

bubba,

.... it is the nature of the beast - moslems in general and pakis in particular, do not understand the concept of democracy and quickly get disenchanted with their 'elected' leaders ..... one thing will lead to another and before you know it kiyani will be making that 'meray aziz hamwaton speech' that we have heard so many times before ....... this model was established in the state of medina and then mecca many many years ago ......

....i would love to be proven wrong, but based on the track record of the unwashed masses, osama's flea infested camel has a bigger chance of winning the kentucky derby ........

Re: # 13

tahmed,

.... true .... now i am getting ready to jump on kiyani's amreekan gaddi (humvee) while you get into zardari's leaky old boat that will not hold the fat brothers from gowalmandi and the fatter mullah from dik ......

...... we will be having this discussion again in a couple of minths trying to figure out who is the rising sun, who is the jumping rat and whose mama raised a fool .......

general kiyani zindabad !
sheikh rashid zindabad !

hamid mian,

as far as pakistan's internal politics are concerned, i consider you as more knowledgeable than me. it seems that now you are suggesting that there will be a military coup. what makes you so sure?

Hamidm: Since the picture below wont come out, you can check it out on the Nation. It shows the rats jumping ship as the S.S. Mushi gravey ship goes under - please dont join those rats...

#12 hamidm: "i have always supported democracy "

spoken like a true lota, now that general "hosni" musharraf is no longer the rising sun. :-)

Re: # 11

tahmed,

...... i can pull up dozens of your posts from that era supporting the 'goons in khaki' and berating the same politicians that you now are so in love with ....... on the other hand, i have always supported democracy even though i don't think the unwashed masses of pakistan deserve it because of their love for abubakrism and ganderis ..... you are just too dense to figure out that my professed love for the fool in khaki is tongue in cheek ...... however, my enthusiasm for sheikh rashid is sincere because he is a real politician who represents the unwashed and clueless masses .........

sheikh rashid zindabad!
general kiyani zindabad!

p.s. i am hoping that kiyani will appoint sheikh sahib as prime minister when he takes over ..... it will be a hoot!

hamdim/Faruk: i have been against "those in power" for good reason. When NS was attacking the Constitution with his "mard-e-momin" amendment and assault on the Supreme Court, I opposed that. The army has a duty to protect the Constitution, and if he had lived up to his word then and promptly called fresh elections and stepped aside for the civilian authority, he would have been seen by most Pakistanis as having done his duty.

Hope this explains. Hamidm, I commend your research, but i suggest you aim for something higher than proving me inconsistent. Like writing like the educated man you are, not that miserable lota from rajah bazaar who looks to "rising suns". and one with the benefit of living in a country that has rejected the very attitudes that you cling to.

Re : hamdim2 #8
Our man Tauheed has been consistently against the people in power. He was against NS eight years ago, against BB before that all the way back to Zia if you remember him.
He will be against your droopy eyed judge and the pack of jokers in parliament as soon as Musharraf is gone.


Regards,

Faruk

As I've mentioned before, there can never be any true democracy in a Muslim-majority state.

Here's an excerpt from a University of California website, prepared by Muslim students at the university, that proves my point:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html

In this article, we will try to clear up many of the misconceptions that are prevalent about Islam. Before jumping into the list of misconceptions directly, it is important to give a little interesting background about the source of Islam.

Islam is the name of a way of life which the Creator wants us to follow. We avoid the word religion because in many non-Islamic societies, there is a separation of "religion and state." This separation is not recognized at all in Islam: the Creator is very much concerned with all that we do, including the political, social, economic, and other aspects of our society. Hence, Islam is a complete way of life.


Here's an excellent read on the state of democracy in Malayasia (which owes it's wealth as well as democratic heritage to the Chinese and the Indians):

The Politics of Democracy in Malaysia
by Rainer Heufers

Throughout the last decades, Malaysians have enjoyed regular elections and political stability. However, a full-fledged democracy requires fulfilment of three essential conditions: extensive political competition, a high level of political participation as well as guaranteed civil and political liberties.4 The Malaysian paradox of "semiauthoritarian"
5 rule in a participatory political system has therefore often been labelled as "semi-democratic"6 or "quasi democratic".7 Jesudason convincingly described Malaysia as a "syncretic state", which "operates at a multi-dimensional level, mixing coercive elements with electoral and democratic procedures; it propagates religion in society as it pursues secular economic goals; it engages in ethnic mobilisation while inculcating national feelings; and it pursues a combination of economic practices ranging from liberal capitalism, state economic intervention, to rentier
arrangements."8


And here's a read on the state of "democracy" in Turkey (highly educated and prosperous):

http://www.gbn.com/ArticleDisplayServlet.srv?aid=2246

Here you'll find how Islamists are trying to use democracy to introduce Islamization, and therefore absence of democracy eventually.

As one would expect, because of Turkey's situation at the faultline between Islam and a democratic Europe, there is a constant tug of war between the representatives of Shanti and the secular "elite".