For My Love

Beautiful, just simply beautiful.

Menai, this is your old teacher.

Contact me at

12 rue Godot de Mauroy

75009 Paris

FRANCE

Would love to know how you have got on in life.

Regards

Hey mubbashir

:) i got it this time.. another friend of yours used to spell it wrong.. got me all mixed up.. anyway.. still think of you as mu though.. :P

back to love...

yes. i do agree with you -love is not really definable and it has evolved over time.. for a while it was that one would fall in love after marrying someone.. not before.. even today in desi marriages. ppl marry on the basis of culture, family, similarities and leave the love for later.

Undeniably love is based on a whole range of values that differ from person to person. The essence of love though..that feeling -however indefinable how ever abstract is something that only ppl that have been in love can relate with or talk about. There is some common ground in that essence--

Can you really fal out of love? yes time goes by and people change, situations change-one may even start to pity the former ``love`` but does that feeling ever go awy. you may start hating the guy or beceom good friends but that love-well its a part of you. it doesnt dissappear the instant one finds out that someone disceived them. Theres anger, hate, and pain.. That pain itself tells you that you still do love them in whatever small way it still exists. Maybe the anger or the changes overshadow it but its still there..

i dont know what it is that makes people think they love each other. But i dont think love is a delusion. Nice or nasty. Because if that were the case then why wouldn`t one love someone that was in an ideal situation for them. I know ppl that say theyre in love, yet neither of them have that ideal situation.. a lot of circumstances could be different -a lot of things would make things fo them adn their love easier. If love were a delusion than either he or she could haveopted to chose a different person.. sometimes things happen.. sometimes one falls in love when theyre not looking for it. And then later realize that he/she is the one for her/him.

when you consider that there are the better suited partners.. when i do i come up with---

theyre other people that would b better suited but that connection that feeling that stirs your soul isnt there with any one else- no matter how better suited. sometimes things happen that no one can control. Love is one of those.

haha now i sound like i know what im talking about.. well everything is goods here.. same ole same ole..

take care

S

babe its mu-2bba-1shir:

its such a great weekend; how are u?

i think you misunderstood what i said in my first reply to your first reply, which has been answered by your reply to which i am replying now....anyway the first time i was saying that (romantic) love is not realy definable (esp just by one concept). i am not sure the way we think of love existed a few centuries (or in our case decades) ago, because it is a cultural construct and evolves with times. certainly my parents love each other but their love is characterized by a whole range of values, that i dont necessarliy agree with. when i do fall in love it wont be the same way.

i think that i have been in love before, but sometimes i am not sure what was it that made me think i was in love? esp now when i dont feel that way. same thing goes for the idea of love and self fullfillment. many people stay in love when they in unhealthy situations; worst case scenarios of abusive relationships or people who are totally infatuated with others when its not reciprocated. it can be argued that these people are still getting something out of such situations, they might be in love with the idea of being in love, they might have low self esteem and need to feel wanted, or hurt themselves to feel like they are victims. whatever the case they think that they are getting something out of it.

i think (a major part of) falling in love involves two people tricking themselves into believing that there is no one else better for them, esp when you consider that there are billions of people including better suited partners, others who can offer something or other. so if you look at it this way love itself is kind of a delusion, a nice one. whether or not a person makes a good judgment depends upon how well s/he knows him/herself, likes him/herself, etc. i am beginning to sound like i know what i am talking about but i dont realy..... these are some thoughts that come to me right now... hmmm so you see the point (i think) i originally made was that love is ``not just a form of self-fullfillment`` it is also many other things like self delusion, etc. self-fullfillment is itself a complicated concept, drugs, sex, religion all are attempts at it but when is it achieved. it is something based on perception not something that is concrete. not sure if i addressed this the way you wanted it. i am tired and my wig is fried, i have to clean up all the gooey glue and get ready for tommorow.

:P (finally found out what this means:)

RE: Mubasshir

hey.. you were read again :P

like teh god voice :) but why are you arguing my point... or actually the point i had to adopt because i wanted someone to counter it..

love is a form of self-fulfillment.. we`ve both come to that statement.. but when one says that love is a form of self-fulfillemtn.. what about those people that love some one but never receive anything from that love? that love is never reciprocated? thres is no fulfillment there? so does love really have to be a form of self fulfillment?

well i was read:

Love is a form of self-fullfillment (imagine vocal authority, ala Hollywood `God` ). I never said it wasnt that is a major aspect of Love. all lovers fall in love because they get something out of it. for many of our parents the notion of love was more based on duty (hence sacrifice for duty), when our idea of love is more romantic (and jaded depending on how many times you have been in love).

however, love doesn`t complete a person. 0r give a person complete self-fullfillment. when it comes down to long term happiness, self satisfaction it goes back to the individual him-herself. so in this sense we both agree that we make our love-object:) choice when we think that we are getting something out of it; be that be happiness, sex, self-sullfillnment, etc. but that doesnt mean that a person`s problems are all gone and they will be happy and satisfied for the rest of their lives; i.e. self fullfilled. i think many people view love as a completely utopian ideal which washes away all problems and thats what i was respondng to.

some people look for love in order to solve there problems, misery, but this can be a self defeating cycle. people can only offer love to others when they are secure with themselves and dont look for love as a magic potion. they are seeking infatuation not love.

so in the case of sacrifice-compromise, i mentioned b4 that lovers give in only as long as they think it is ``worthwhile`` to do so. human beings rarely ever do anything unless they feel like they get something out of it. to sum it up love is a form of self-fullfillment, but not self-fullfillment itself. the distiction is important.

mubbashir

Re:Mubasshir

ok so it took me a littel while.. but i am getting back to it.. :Þ

well asmuch as i hate supporting this view that love might be a form of self-fulfillment.. i really havent found anything to refute it..

you said that its filled with compromises and give and take.. but what all of the compromises come back to-ie.. why one compromises is for that feeling that love gives them -love-undefined and abstract as it is- is still a feeling that one has. When one professes love-the whole i love you deal.. they are saying that they themself are doing the loving.. they are experiencing that feeling.. when they compromise they feel that feeling even more -that compromise be it however grand or small is made because they love the other person.. that feeling of love itself is the thing that is augmented. They feel feel better and stronger with their love because they gave up something for someone they love--

one often hears i`d do anyhting for you cause i love you kinda lines right? im not doubting the sincereity of those words.. but in the process of doing whatever for the lover.. one makes him/her happy but also serves his own purpose by keeping that feeling going for his/her own self. so its kind of a fulfillment of what they desire for themselves...

Do you follow me so far? its kinda ammusing -unlike other discussions i rather wish you`d win this one so i can go back and settle this discussion with my coz.. and be the right one there.. i prefer your side but right now i cant seem to negate this one..:)

re: S

its fun to check out these long deserted pieces once in a while, esp when there r some new interesting things written back.

well you were speaking of love. `Love` is love because in some sense it stays undefined. thats why it can be such a damn headache...different people experience it differently and go on to change there minds about it as they go along. however, love is not love if its looked as just a form of self fullfillment. in many instances love requires a certain amount of sacrifice, compromise or something contrary to ones will, given the lover deems it worthwhile to do so. real self fullfillment/satisfaction or happiness can only realy come from inside not outside. one can only realy love others when one loves oneself. looking for self fullfillment by falling in love with someone only leads to eventual disappointment when you realize that nothing has changed inside. hmmm kinda like buying new cars that promise status, happiness, speed and sexual appeal, but they get old eventually.

Have to agree with zehra..

wonderful writing..

but is the last part necessarily true?

can love really be selfless?

or is it a means of self fulfillment (as was pointed out to me recently.) Why does one love someone.. because of the way they make you feel? Isn`t that in a way self fulfillment?

I`m not attacking your love for your fiancee or love at all-personally im a big supporter of it-glad you found it. :) -just merely curious about whether love is infact a form of self fulfillment or not.

:)

I`ve always been one to ignore what people say, but to watch very carefully what they do. Thats when you can really separate the good from the bad. Nobody will admit to being a bigot and most will claim to want to treat and view all equally, but when one looks at how important social decisions in life are made: who to marry, who to socialize with, who to invite to one`s house, and who to call one`s friend`s; in Pakistan it mostly boils down to a status and class based calculas. People from ``good families`` would like to stay ``good,`` even usually the most self professedly egalitarian and socialist of the lot. So its good the author raised the issue, corrected his prejudice in writing, and provoked a healthy discussion, but will any of us every admit to having poor relatives who resemble the ``lower class`` people so vividly portrayed--I doubt it.



what more can we expect

Mustafa... superbly written! Language and expressions of a superior class! I imagined all the scenes as if they were alive as I read your letter, and throughly enjoyed myself - shukriya!

mariam ispahani

well well.

the writing was amazing..first reactions were...hillpark...that was the place where i got my ass pinched for the first time in pakistan. i was able to paint out your whole article in living color from that point on. i could see the mullah, i could see the newly wed couple, i could see my reaction to them. it being a VERy bigoted reaction and on top of that, i had the audacity to, half way through your article wonder who the hell you thought you were to say things about them, and as soon as i thought that, you turned around and painted a friendlier mullah and a loving couple. we grow up in certain ways and especially in pakistan it is very hard to not think in the way society does. i go back now and cringe when the massi is asked to iron my clothes get me a simple glass of water or to make me chai. i learned a certain respect for people through my parents and it was easier to teach it to me in the states. we grow up prejudiced one way or the other and knowing it doesnt relly help till we take action against it. also, pretending that we are all the same does nothing either...becuz we arent...lets not only ``tolerate`` difference but accept it. Your article opened up a can of worms that wasnt going to stay shut much longer.

ps. think u could teach my man to write letters like that to me :PP

Mustafa:

Somewhere Kafka wrote: “God does not want me to write and I have no other option.”

Here, in the reminiscence of a literary world, was realized the authors abject resignation of being separated from his work. In essence, Joseph K brandished whatever claim Kafka obtained for his own reality. This indeed is true for most important artist of this century (Stephen/Joyce, Malone/Beckett, Bovary/Flaubert). Maybe Maurice Blanchot’s essays from “Work Of Fire” would surrender any reservation created by the narrative of yours truly. Even today, when we read the diaries of these artists it remains evident that they had become literature, in effect Kafka went to lunch wrote a paragraph and metamorphosed into smoke. Herein lay my somewhat obtuse question: in your personal adventure were you sincere enough?

Regards,

Faisal

Cool , love it ! Its amazing how ppl back home live from day to day ! inspite of having no or little hope

of any improvement in their lives. With all the traffic and pollution and strikes and killings, i really

respect how ppl are coping with it. Its sad, but true and i guess this very thing has caused ppl to

believe that there is nothng they can do to change it. But then again u come across ppl who makes u

believe otherwise. Just today i came across a site which i encourage others to check out also.

www.citizensfoundation.com/ All the best

wasalam

I for one are quite astonished at the fact that our ``genre`` forsee`s the ``america`s`` has the path of succession, the moral concepts are declineing in a country were corruption is rampant. to portray the ``watan`` has a place of ``euphoria``...this my freind is a diminshing approach.........let`s cut the hype!!!

And I thought Pynchon was obsessed with adjectives. I really don t see through this piece of prose- not a short story, an essay, or even a letter. I hope you forgive my lack of perception- this I had to ask.

You know how to write for sure, but such convulsions of the pen. Kafka relegated his art to the higher authority of Literature, where later Blanchot would so coldly declare them one. My question sir, in all your gravity, are you?

Regards,

Faisal