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Aamina (25):

1. I was trying to establish that training in science not only give people scientific knowledge but also tools of abstraction which are necessary to scientific thought process.

2. I think there is enough evidence by reading other Ayyahs of the Quran to translate `Ayyam` as `periods` not `days` depending on the context.

3. Surely Allah is the wisest of judges. I never said that AIDS is a punishment for people who transgress. I trying to say that the mechanism through which AIDS became a worldwide epidemic was related to irresponsible behavior of human beings, whether it was due to destroying forests or sexual activities.

RE: Aali.

``Let me add that we should not become so rigid in our acceptance of any particular interpretation of either scientific facts or religious texts that we blind ourselves to all other possible interpretations. And Allah knows best.``

Well spoken, my friend! And I couldn`t agree with you more.

Saad

RE: Goga.

``On the other hand, Omar has a Phd in Biology. Kamaran is speehless against Omar`s arguments.``

With respect, I disagree. Sure, Omar is the one trained in science, but Kamran is neither uneducated nor unintelligent. Rather than being speechless against Omar, he repeatedly comes up with searching questions. These are the standard questions that educated people come up with when they do not know much about evolution. And, indeed, though Omar tackles these questions well (in my view), Kamran remains unconvinced to the end. I would argue that only is Kamran not speechless, he is not spineless either :-).

Saad

Re: Ask post # 20

Just a thought on the nature of NBC weapons. The biggest problem with NBC weapons is the costs involved in properly storing them and taking care that no residual leakage contminates the environment. All NBC weapons systems degrade over a period of time and such, become highly unstable and have to be disposed of at a certain point in their lives. Most biological and chemical weapons used by the USA are beyond their useful shelf lives and are leaking!!

The largest storage facility for the United States Army`s chemical weapons is in Tooele, Utah, about an hours drive south-west of Salt Lake City. Presently, the USA (United States Army)is destroying its chemical munitions and by 2000+2yrs, the USA will have no chemical munitions left. The incineration process is supposed to be safe, but there have been known cases of ``compromise in system`s intergrity``, which is the army`s way of saying, there was some release of chemical vapor into the air!

There is a joke circulating in Salt Lake: Lets go to ground-zero and watch the mutants play! If anyone is interested in studying the effects of chemical weapons on civilian population, look no further than Salt Lake City....in a few years, the symptoms should start appearing.....!

re: Adeel, Anita

Thanks for your replies.

I am indeed more worried about the prospects for biological and chemical weapons than the 11 TNT explosions last year:)

Ashish

Time is one of endless discussion both in Islam and Science. I think you are making reference to:

The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years: (70:4)

In this verse, I do not think it is mentioned that a day for God is equal to 50000 earth days. It seems to me that it takes angels and spirits 50000 year to ascend to God. The other verse is:

We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us. (50:38)

The word `Ayyam` for day in Arabic also can be translated as period. The verse can also mean that the universe was made in six periods. This is also a fascinating topic in the modern cosmology. Now there is a new theory called the inflationary theory that says that the universe went through a period of rapid expansion about 10 to the minus 43 sec after the big bang. This is supposed to explain the clustering of matter in the form of Galaxies; otherwise, the distribution of matter would have been uniform. That sort of a universe could not support life as we know it. So that could be one of the periods Quran is talking about.

Furthermore, the passage of time is not uniformly passing in the universe. The passage of time slows down for something traveling near the speed of light. Einstein`s paradox of twins is a famous example of this effect. Time also slows down for something in a gravitational field. The stronger the field the slower the time would be. All in all, time is still a mystery for physicists, a very deep mystery. Understanding time would provide a great insight to the workings of the universe. Recommended reading:

``Time`s Arrow`` by Paul Davies. Available at http://www.newscientist.com/ns/971101/features1.html

Dear Ashish

Enough biological agents exist in the world today for military purposes that no new agent is probably needed. But you never know what destructive power lives within the humankind! The most common and the most studied bioterrorism agent is probably anthrax. It is very easy and cheap to prepare in large quantities, and rather easy to disperse. There have been at least 4 threats of anthrax being mailed to various sites in the US in the last year which FBI and CDC bioterrorism branch have investigated. Fortunately all turned out to be hoaxes.

Genetic mutations in the laboratory to create a new virus is possible, but it is difficult to predict the biological behaviour of such an agent. Several lethal viruses exist in nature, and one (smallpox) in the laboratory in a couple of countries. Examples are hantavirus, ebola virus, and certain hemorrhagic viruses (eg Congo Crimean hemorrhagic virus), yellow fever virus, etc. If used as a bioterrorism agent their spread will be more difficult to control than eg anthrax, and your own people may get infected.

I am not sure about the exact nature of sale of genetic information of Icelanders. It is probably that they would allow access to their database of genotypes of their population, meaning who is susceptible to what kind of diseases on genetic analysis.

Adeel.

Shafqat:

Quite a nice work. you have takled a two fold problem: to explain your (or may be hypothetical Omar`s) position on evolution in a the form of a play. I think that the opposition of to evolution in your play is quite weak who is basically an accountant with little scientific knowledge: interest in science cannot be equilant to rigourous training in science. On the other hand, Omar has a Phd in Biology. Kamaran is speehless against Omar`s arguments. The only thing he can do is to get into his car and escape. But I do not blame you. Otherwise, the conversation would have never ended and the washing machine would have not mented and Laila would have...

I do not think there is conspracy as in the Quran God says:

``Did they conspire? No! they the people who transgress boundary.`` (I do not know where in the Quran)

I think this Ayah perfectly fits the spread of AIDS by the people who transgress boundaries.

Anita:

I for one would like to hear what `Laila` has to say. But no matter how repressed `Laila` heself is, she should happy to see that she belongs to a very powerful group, especially in the West.

The Muslim soul whether exist in a compartmentalized brain or not is quite batter by the likes of Rushdi. In that event, if `Omar` wants to give Muslims, with comparmentlized brains, a sugar coated pill to decomparmentalize their brains, `Laila` shouldn`t be that upset.

If that`s not enough, then I would suggest that she should take matters in her own hands after all they say, `If you want a job get done, do it yourself.`

Re: ASK

``Are geneticists now (or will they be in the near future) capable of making such gene-based agents? What are the chances of an existing non-fatal virus naturally mutating into something deadly(how often does this happen)? How many more unknown dangerous viruses may be present in the world(based on the rate at which new viruses are discovered...)?``

The answer to all of these questions is yes, although I can`t directly think of how selling the Icelandic populations genetic information has any bearing on this. You`ll have to give me more details on that.

One far-fetched possibility could be that they identify a specific genetic abnormality in handling a certain pathogen that is common in people of Icelandic descent and attack with that pathogen. For example CCR5 receptor is important in entry of HIV, abnormal gamma interferon pathways/receptors lead to increased susceptibility to TB etc.

Existing non-fatal viruses can naturally mutate into something fatal, although it doesn`t happen very often. The two best examples are the 1918-1919 influenza epidemic, and HIV. In that `flu epidemic, suddenly a very virulent strain of `flu appeared, which had high death rates even among young people. Over 20 million people died the world over, in that epidemic.

There are probably thousands of undiscovered viruses in the tropical rain forests of the world. As humans increasingly destroy wildlife habitats, we will see more and more of them.

Anita

Well written and entertaining. It took time
to gloss over since the length (4000+ words)
requires some real ``Fursat`` to go into details.
Evolution sometimes needs a revolutionary
(short) approach to it`s discussion. But this
comment just might be the product of thought
mutation on my end.

Ras

Oops, didn`t see Adeel`s comments - he is also obviously qualified to speak on this subject.

Saad

Re: Ashish (reply no. 10).

Thanks for the appreciation. Your question about AIDS is actually more appropriate for my wife, Anita Zaidi (an infectious disease specialist), and she will be answering you herself.

I personally think that the idea of AIDS being a kind of man-made biological weapon to destroy African peoples is far-fatched. This kind of epidemic is impossible to control and anything can happen. Moreover, many white populations have also been devastated by AIDS, not to mention that all the significant advances in AIDS research (from discovery of the AIDS virus to the development of triple-drug therapy) have come from white scientists.

Apart from all the superhuman know-how and organizational set-up that would be needed to pull off such a conspiracy, what would be the motive ? Settling Africa ? Please!

:) :)

Best regards,
Saad

re: Adeel, Saad

Thanks a lot for your replies about HIV. I am convinced that there isn`t much doubt about the origins of HIV. Though, I believe, because of the complicated nature of biological entities(Is there a term which includes ``living things`` and viruses?) no scientist will ever say that he is 100% sure, giving creationists and conspiracy theorists the excuse they need.

I have some follow-up questions though. The reason for my question in the previous post was the wierd conspiracy theory of my friend and a recent program on BBC I heard about future biological weapons using genetic information. I guess this program was prompted by the recent decision by the Icelandic govt. to sell the genetic information of their population. My question is this(forgetting about HIV): Are geneticists now (or will they be in the near future) capable of making such gene-based agents? What are the chances of an existing non-fatal virus naturally mutating into something deadly(how often does this happen)? How many more unknown dangerous viruses may be present in the world(based on the rate at which new viruses are discovered...)?

I would love to know your opinions on this matter.

Ashish

The story about AIDS being a conspiracy is pure hambug! There is no doubt that AIDS is caused by a virus which belongs to the family of viruses called ``retroviruses``. Being directly involved in AIDS care for the past several years I have come across some unscrupulous even in the USA who call it a government conspiracy.

A recent article in ``Nature`` has given us new insights into the origin of the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV- the virus that causes AIDS). It appears that HIV was transmitted from chimpanzees to humans several decades ago probably because of hunting and consumption of chimpanzee meat by certain African tribes. Once established in the humans, it propagated by various routes, mostly heterosexual contact and mother to child transmission in Africa.

Adeel A. Butt,MD

Clinical Assistant Professor of Medicine

Section of Infectious Diseases

Divsion of HIV and AIDS

Louisiana State Universioty Medical Center

New Orleans

re: Saad

A very nice article. A great reply to creationists even while attempting to not offend them.

On a tangential note, a friend of mine (from Austria) has this conspiracy theory that AIDS is actually a man-made desease (to ``prepare`` Africa for european settlement). Since this forum has a great number of researchers in medicine, I would like to ask if this is plausible. Recently, I have been hearing about the feasibility of creating biological weapons to target specific ethnicities and that the South African and Israeli govts. could have been working on something like these. Is is possible that the process by which AIDS is supposed to have been transmitted from apes to humans is incorrect?

Ashish