Mecca or Mohenjodaro?

Ref krashid #: 167

``You see Harimau how you are taught poorly in your country.

Mahmood attacked 17 successful attacks.``

If any particular attack was successful and the temple was looted, what was the reason for the next attack? When these attacks happened annually if not more frequently, don`t tell me that the temple accumulated enough wealth in between attacks to pay for the war expenses incurred by Ghaznavi. So, if the first attack was successful, why did Ghaznavi come back?

And why did the Hindus give up only after the 17th ``successfull`` sacking of Somnath? It took tham that long to realize that Somnath was an indefensible location?

What prevented Ghaznavi from coming back for the 18th or 19th successful time?

For that matter, I don`t recall Nadir Shah coming back to loot Delhi or Taimur Lang returning for that matter. I suppose their loot wasn`t as big as the annual loot from Somnath and they went away discouraged never to come back.

You are just pathetic. Why don`t you ask some rational questions of the mullah when he tells you about the glories of Ghaznavi and Ghauri?

Mohajir you mentioned Khatami as saying `` resolving the problem between India and Pakistan by mutual consultation`` but that also included Kashmir which you skipped.

Also you should be proud of common heritage between Iran and India as mentioned by Khatami which was brought by Muslim invaders and their army composed of Turks, Persian, and Turkemanistan etc. We in Pakistan are also very proud of this common heritage along with our Afghani brothers.

From your posting it looks that you are also very proud.

You see Harimau how you are taught poorly in your country.

Mahmood attacked 17 successful attacks.

Condition of Somnat was that, all the big wealth was accumulated on the back of people`s superstition and hard work. And society was divided into worst form of caste system. And temples were full of Dev dasis and abuse of them.

But you don`t need to tell all these in your text books because you have already became secularized and democratized fully.

It is our job the non democratic and non secular people to fight for the correct form of history.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=5/23/00&Cat=2&Num=8

Khatami: Iran, India Should Strengthen Mutual Relations

TEHRAN President Mohammad Khatami said in Tehran on Monday that Iran and India should strengthen mutual relations in political, cultural, economic, industrial and scientific fields. In a meeting with visiting Indian Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh, President Khatami said Iran and India are the two of a few nationals whose civilizations have influenced the destiny of the world.

The president said the solidarity between the Iranian and Indian nations is not based on temporary political and material interests, but it has roots in the Eastern outlooks of the two countries toward the universe and humanity. He expressed hope that Iran and India would have considerable cooperation in the field of dialog of civilizations` and within the international community.

President Khatami said the region requires peace and security more than anything else and the two countries should cooperate in fostering security, stability and independence of the region.

On India-Pakistan dispute, the president said, ``I hope the two countries would succeed in reaching a settlement relying on the common interests and the threats posed to the two countries,`` Khatami said the Afghan crisis is a threat to the regional security and Afghanistan has now become the main center for production of drugs. He expressed hoped for an International resolve and regional common will to help the Afghan people reach a lasting peace. The president referring to Iran`s policy of detente, appreciated the endeavor made by Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi to promote detente in Iranian foreign policy.

Singh convoyed the greetings of Indian president to President Khatami and the Iranian nation and said Iran and India share extensive common grounds in different areas especially in the field of civilization and culture. Meanwhile, Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi and his Indian counterpart here on Monday stressed the need for regular consultations to expedite implementation of agreements already reached between the two countries. The Press Department at Foreign Ministry also exchanged views on regional issues, including latest situation in Afghanistan. Singh hailed Chairman of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) President Khatami`s initiative to encourage Afghan groups to sit at negotiating table and for his endeavor to find a solution to the ongoing crisis in Afghanistan.

(IRNA)

Ref krashid #: 164

You said ``And I am pretty sure they also teach attack by plunderer Mahmud Ghaznavi on Somnat.``

Yes, they did. Considering that it took 17 attempts for Mahmud Ghaznavi before he succeeded, it was standard operating procedure to refer to any student who flunked his finals and was detained in his grade as Mahmud Ghaznavi. We students thought that it was hilarious Mahmud couldn`t win. In fact, my friend who flunked her ECFMG exam 13 times was called Ghaznavi behind her back!

You ask ``But do they also teach what was the condition of temples in Somnat,``

We were taught Somnath was the richest temple at that time. That Ghaznavi attacked the temple, broke down the idol of Shiva and removed the gold and precious gemstones buried underneath it. We also were taught how it took many days to loot the temple.

You ask ``and why were those people attacked so easily``

Seventeen attempts is not considered easy; maybe in your part of Pakistan.

You ask ``and what was the moral condition of Hindu system at that time.``

No; since there is no reliable record of sociological conditions at that time, we were not taught about that. I am sure Pakistan has records in the form of inscriptions in stone which Mahmud took away with him and they are now being maintained in the museum at Karachi or perhaps at Ghazni.

You say ``I am pretty sure, if they start teaching these there will be a great revolt considering the rise of Hinduvta in India.``

Even in the more literate parts of India such as Kerala, Tamil Nadu and West Bengal, education has only strengthened the hands of the nationalists (meaning, strong support for the federation of India). On top of that, you find increasing support for the BJP in the cities of India which has more of the educated population.

I have no problems with you and a majority of Pakistanis being Muslims. But if you claim that conversions to Islam took place because of the more enlightened policies of Islam, I would like to ask you how that was possible when a larger proportion of India was illiterate in those times. A population that was 99% illiterate could see advantages in Islam but a population that is 40% illiterate cannot see the advantages of Islam? Obviously, logic has never been a strong suite of those who go through the Pak version of history.

We in India don`t have a grudge against Mahmud Ghaznavi, Mohammed of Ghauri or any number of other invaders of India. In fact, Ghauri and Ghaznavi are comical figures for their repeated failures. We had plenty of Ghauris and Ghaznavis in my school and, thinking back on it, I find it laughable that you guys named your missile Ghauri. Is that an indication of its accuracy?

Harimau! That is quite good that they are teaching the abolition of all those rules at high school level.

And I am pretty sure they also teach attack by plunderer Mahmud Ghaznavi on Somnat.

But do they also teach what was the condition of temples in Somnat, and why were those people attacked so easily and what was the moral condition of Hindu system at that time.

I am pretty sure, if they start teaching these there will be a great revolt considering the rise of Hinduvta in India.

harimau, vineet

Many thanks for the information.

Sadhana

Sadhana:

Here are a couple of Devadasi films. Ismayeel Shroff`s Hindi film Ahista Ahista (Padmini Kolhapure, Nanda). Also Marathi film Mahananda (Shashikala, Faiyyaz Ahmed. It has a Hindi version with Faruukh Shaikh and Moushumi Chatterjee) and Marathi play Hamidabaichi kothi by Vijaya Mehta. Devadasi is/was more prevalent in Maharashtra/Karnataka border areas and also in parts of Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu.

krashid #159

``devadasi``

I don`t know about textbooks, but a number of mainstream movies have been made in the South based on the devadasi theme. I remember seeing a Tamil movie(award-winning?) called `Devadasi` on prime-time government TV many years ago in Madras, about an college-going educated daughter of a devadasi and her tragic attempts to free herself of the tradition.

The movie highlighted a. how debasing and exploitative the tradition had become, and b. the hypocrisy of those who perpetuated its illeffects by their actions while simultaneously granting themselves a moral high ground merely by voicing disapproval.

BTW, many mainstream/off-mainstream Indian movies have examined the `kotha` tradition, too. I remember in particular one play on national TV by Vijaya Mehta,`Hamidaa Bai ki Kothi`, about the difficulties faced in coming out of this tradition too.

Sadhana

Ref krashid #: 159

You asked ``I am curious, if in India they teach school children about DevDasi and other * * * * etc or do like their Pakistani counterparts i.e skip.

Just curious.``

Yes. I was taught in high school that it was during Lord Bentinck`s vice-royalty that the law that abolished sati was passed; that the Sharda Act in the 1930s prohibited child marriages; and that the devadasi system was abolished as the government started taking over the administration of temples that lacked a board of management (which is 99% of them since all management boards were hereditary and not registered with the government). I was also taught how the Hindu obscurantists (including people who were lawyers and Indians who were educated in England) fought against the Sharda Act which raised the marriageable age for brides to 14 years on the basis that this would lead females astray. We were also taught that the admission of Harijans into temples was spearheaded by Mahatma Gandhi. We also learnt that in the princely state of Travancore-Cochin, the Dewan ordered the temples opened to Harijans in 1937. For your information, the Dewan was Sir C.P. Ramasawamy Iyer, a Brahmin, who went against the then current interpretation of Hindu scriptures in opening the temples to Harijans. As opposed to the mullahs of the year 2000 who are trying to figure out whether Ahmadis, Shias, Ismailis, Qadianis, etc., are Muslims. And trying to put women into burqas.

Are Indian students of the Year 2000 learning this level of detail? I don`t know because I have had no occasion to check into a textbook.

Harimau#158

You yourself said that for Muslims, history of subcontinent starts from Muslim invasion.

It necessarily means you are taught history from before like Ashoka, ChandarGupt Bikarmajit and Buddha. I am curious, if in India they teach school children about DevDasi and other * * * * etc or do like their Pakistani counterparts i.e skip.

Just curious.

Reply krashid #: 156

When you say ``With God`s grace Pakistan will turn into a Sunni-Extremist-Wahabi alliance like Saudi and probably then you will send all poor people from your country to Pakistan like you send to Saudi Arabia``, please remember that most of the ads from Saudi Arabia read ``Muslims preferred``. And also remember that a bunch of Muslims who left India for Pakistan in 1947 are still waiting for admission into your country. In case you have forgotten it, they are called Biharis and they are in Bangladesh. At least, they wouldn`t have a language problem as they already speak Urdu, unlike Jinnah.

When you say ``As far as Pakistan becoming Phariah, probably it has become Moses as far as Indian Pharoah is concerned``, I guess that is why Pakistan doesn`t accept any immigrants from India since 1954. The nation for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent has decided unilaterally that those remaining in India are not Muslims despite the fact that they pray in a mosque to Allah.

I haven`t seen a mad rush for immigrant visas to Pakistan from Jains, Buddhists, Parsis, Christians, Dalits, Sikhs, Tamils, Assamese, Mongols from Ladakh or the Northeast, or any other community which you all feel is disaffected by the Hindu domination of India. And the so-called Hindu domination doesn`t prevent illegal migration from Bangladesh into India. I guess they have taken a look at the history of Pakistan and feel safer in India.

Yeah, devadasis. Is that any worse than little boys getting molested by your mullahs?

You can drag out the devadasi issue for another 500 years or sati or any other crap. Nobody cares, least of all, the descendants of devadasis who have managed to make themselves into a respectable caste by embracing middle-class morality. Tell you what, that might be the cure for your incurable obscurantism. Dump the shalwar-kameezes and burqas, get into trousers and saris, stop having names with z`s, f`s, and those abominable q`s without u`s, stop by at the local temple and break a coconut for the idol on your way back from the mosque, and in 50 years you will be just like another caste among the Hindus. Once outside the burqa, your girls might even win the Miss World and Miss Universe contests.

krashid #156

I have seen plenty of believer-better-than-nonbeliever mentality, plenty of `better` Muslim, `worse` Muslim mentality, plenty of `better` Pakistani citizen and `not-so-good` Pakistani citizen mentality, too. The `better` and `worse` judgement as pronounced by a number of `moral` Pakistanis as driving force is nothing new in subcontinental history.

Sadhana

Sadhna as per your --- mentality you are trying to sell India and creating rifts in Pakistan.

We have no concern with India except that it think itself big in mind. My grandmother used to say ``Asmullah Mein Suraaq Karna``.Have you heard of a story when a person was dreaming of eggs in his basket leading to a Citadel. When he shook his head all eggs broke down. So wait for shaking of head and be big and sophisticated.

You should know the reputation of Faruq Abdullah as a puppet of India which he is and is perceived as such by all people including India. ``Dhobi ka Kutta Ghar ka na Ghat Ka``

It is understandable that you should cry for all these people, because they are serving their own and your interest. Mir Jafar and Mir Saadiq can only be applauded by you.

But he is the brothers of Kashmiris, let them do to their treacherous brothers.

They are also taking care of Indian oppressor in the name of BSF and Indian Army.

Let them do their job. You do your part on this board.

Lets wait for the verdict of history.

Assadk:

I wholeheartedly agree with your response.

Mohajir#many posts.

You are lamenting taking to International Court of downing of AWACS (I thought it was a navy plane) by Pakistan.

That is why you are planning to sue Pevez Musharraf for highjacking of Indian plane, because you have substantial proof which you could not even show to your puppet Nepal and which you think will be accepted by International Jurors. Are all people in India naive.

You said there was history of India before Arab invasion. I have also read the history of ``Dev Dasi`` in temples and putting of lead in the ears of Shudr and a very romantic, * * * * history of India. I think you are very much impressed by that history and wants to take India in the same direction. Probably Kashmir is a small trailer of it.

With God`s grace Pakistan will turn into a Sunni-Extremist-Wahabi alliance like Saudi and probably then you will send all poor people from your country to Pakistan like you send to Saudi Arabia.

As far as Pakistan becoming Phariah, probably it has become Moses as far as Indian Pharoah is concerned.

Some Muridke-trained Punjabis are apparently more Kashmiri than Kashmiris themselves. Lets see some criticism of these `dynamics`.

Sadhana

http://www.the-hindu.com/2000/05/16/stories/01160001.htm

J&K Minister, 4 others killed in blast

By Shujaat Bukhari

CHAMREN (Anantnag), MAY 15. The Jammu and Kashmir

Minister of State for Power, Mr. Ghulam Hassan Bhat, and four others were killed in a powerful IED explosion near Mandipore in Anantnag district this morning.

Two policemen were also injured in the blast. The pro-Pakistan militant outfit, Hizbul Mujahideen, has claimed responsibility for the blast.

According to witnesses, the 47-year-old Minister was proceeding to Srinagar in a convoy of five vehicles after spending the night at his house in Mandipore when the blast occurred around 9.55 a.m., 500 metres from his residence. As the first vehicle crossed the spot, a remote-controlled improvised explosive device (IED) was exploded by smashing the Minister`s car, which was immediately behind, to pieces.

Mr. Bhat, his two personal security officers - Ghulam Qadir and Farooq Ahmed - driver, Raju Kumar, and a National Conference worker, Ghulam Mohammad Wani, were hurled into the air with such an impact that their bodies were found half a kilometre away. The explosion caused a 10-foot-deep crater. The remains of the Minister`s car were scattered all over the place. A police officer at the site confirmed that RDX was used in the IED placed in a water pipe under the road.

Till late in the afternoon police personnel were seen collecting pieces of the bodies and stitching them together after identifying the dead by the clothes worn. Blood and pieces of flesh were seen strewn on the road which connects Anantnag`s Dooru area with the Srinagar-Jammu national highway. This is the first time a Minister has been targeted by militants.

(According to PTI, the body of Mr. Bhat was laid to rest at his native village, Mundipora, some 80 km from Srinagar in south Kashmir.)

Mr. Bhat, a law graduate from Aligarh Muslim University, was first elected to the State Assembly in 1996 and inducted into the Council of Ministers as Parliamentary Secretary in 1998 and later as Minister of State. Mr. Bhat`s killing has been widely condemned by people from all walks of life.

Soon after news of the incident reached Srinagar, the Chief Minister, Dr. Farooq Abdullah, his Cabinet colleagues and senior police and civil officers rushed to Mandipore village. The Government declared a holiday and the national flag in all Government institutions was flown at half-mast.

Dr. Abdullah, expressing shock, said, ``Those behind such barbaric and inhuman incidents do not want peace restored in the State. But our Army is ready to accept the challenge and will soon launch a major operation to flush out the militants.``

To a question he said, ``This is one example of trans-border terrorism aided and abetted by Pakistan.``

Fuzair #149: I think my comments were a bit unclear. The point I am trying to make is not that Pakistan has not committed any atrocities against anyone. I have tried to point those out as well as the ones other countries have committed, in an even manner.

The point I am trying to make is that there are many Pakistanis who are not afraid to criticize, or at least point out, the atrocities committed by Pakistan in the past, or in the present. You have commented on those in your reply #149, as well. Most of the Pakistanis commenting on Chowk have no problems criticizing Pakistan for not peacefully giving the Bengalis their right of self-determination. I have commented on that.

However, it seems that almost everyone in India (at least by the comments on Chowk), actually supports the actions of the Indian govt. in Kashmir. Indians overwhelmingly seem to trying to find reasons to justify it, rather than criticize it. At best, some are indifferent to it. The few who want Kashmiris to get self-determination seem to be interested in it because it would improve relations with Pakistan; not becuse Kashmiris themselves would get their wish. The few lines of criticism of the Indian govts.` actions by Indians, seem to be always followed by some attmepts at justifying the action. There does not exist an unconditional acceptance of the fact that more than 5000 people are being killed their everyday.

Their is no way for someone to control the actions of their govt., specially in third world countries. However, at the very least people should criticize the human rights violations of their govt. And at the very very very least, people should not support them, or attempt to justify them. If the Pakistan govt. bombs people in Baluchistan, there probably isn`t much I can do to stop the action. However, I can at least speak out against it. At the very least, as a human being, I should not support it. If their was a massive uprising for independence in Sind, with a majority of Sindhis supporting it, then I should not egg on Punjabis to kill the Sindhis. However, Indians seem to be indifferent to what is going on in Kashmir. Infact, almost all the comments I have read seem to support the actions of the Indian govt, in the big picture.

My judgement maybe biased, since I am a Pakistani myself. However on Chowk, I have found Pakistanis much more willing to unconditionally own up to and criticize the current and historic human rights violations committed by Pakistan, without trying to provide any excuses (there are some who do provide excuses, but there are many who don`t). I am still waiting for Indians to unconditionally criticize their govts. massive human rights violations against the Kashmiri population (without adding a, ``but ....`` at the end to justify it, after criticizing it). I have nothing against India or India However I do have quite a bit against Indian actions in Kashmir. Until the general population of India itself criticizes these actions unconditionally and recognizes the Kashmiris as human beings (and answers the question that if Pakistan is causing all the problems in Kashmir, then why is the Indian govt. unwilling to hold a plebescite there to expose Pakistan), the Kashmir problem will never be solved.

``given that the Indians are not going to give up Kashmir and that the ones suffering the most are the Kashmiris, the best thing Pakistan could do is to accept the LOC as the permanent border and let the Kashmiris get on with rebuilding whats left of their lives.``

I don`t think Pakistan will ever get the Indian portion of Kashmir. I don`t think Pakistan has a moral right over it (neither does India). It belongs to the people of the land, i.e. the Kashmiris. If the Kashmiris vote to join with India, I would be more than happy. It doesn`t matter what the end result is, as long as their wishes are taken into account.

I think eventually Pakistan will have to accept the LOC as the border. However, it should only be accepted, once Indian agree to some sort of a solution for peace in Kashmir, based on the desire of the Kashmiris. Otherwise, if the LOC becomes the border, and the Kashmiri self-determination movement still continues, the chance of war between India and Pakistan will increase. The reason being that any military action in Kashmir could be blamed by India, on Pakistan (or individual Pakistanis) crossing an international border (which has far higher implications than crossing an LOC).

``And the Pakistani Air Force napalmed Baluchi tribesmen in the 1970s. And of course there was the 1971 fiasco as well.`` The PAF pilot community is extremely small. Everyone knows everyone. I tried to get info on this from various acquintences who could have flown these missions. Couldn`t find anything. I will keep looking, and try to find out the accuracy of the events, and comments related to these events.