The Menace of Education

Mr. Hoodbhoy, I wonder how much effect writing this convincing piece will have on the people who control change in Pakistan. Wouldn`t some sort of citizens movement, demanding specific (rather than the highly general changes you suggest) and urgent change, be a more fruitful channel for protest.

To take a tip from the biggest douche in the universe - Bush Jr. - I think it`s necessary for intellectuals, students and Pakistanis who care to form a ``coalition of the willing`` and press for educational change and reform collectively. Individually, most of us can only make interesting noises. But if we were to channel and pool our efforts, I cannot help but feel that we would achieve more.

Unless ofcourse most of these noises are meant to be just that - noises.

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I readily support what Mr. Hoodbhoy write. I would request Mr. Hoodbhoy to analyse the two educational systems in the country and tell us whether those people who are pursuing O`Levels and A`Levels instead of matric and Intermediate are at fault or not.

AD and Gymno!

I think you are confusing issues of Nationalism with Muslim Ummah.

Arab rulers are bad.

But they are also the one who invited people from India and Pakistan to work in their country. And accordiing to you care more about India than Pakistan. So that is Islamic rule.

The problem with you guys are that you only have to substantiate your biases with some events.

The cause of backwardness of Arabs is Islam and Islamic rule and Islamic thinking. so far so good.

Now the Islamic rule is pragmatic. It is because Arab drink and does not care about Islam.

At least be consistent even in your biases.

Reply #: 100

gymnosophist

Well lets see, i guess the bubbly kind, from the Champange region of France. From watching Bond movies, it seems Don Perignon `52 is the inthing.

Although at $1500 + for a bottle for that year, the woman and the song better be worth the wine

:-)

Ref AD #: 97

You said {The Shaikhs who rule the gulf care only for their pertro-dollars.....Most of these shaikhs enjoy wine, women and song.}

Can someone enlighten me as to what kind of wine goes well with women and song? ;-)

Reply #: 98

krashid

--Krashid, look at things a little more objectively and u shall see my point. Throughout the conflicts between our countries, did the Arab states ever put an oil embargo on India ? Had the Arabs been loyal to the muslim Ulema, they would have done so and you could have actually won the wars. But that did not happen ? Why ?

Because the basic fact is that majority of the Arabs sheikhs (not the common people), are more obsessed with money that anything else. The only reason why they cling to their Islamic identity is so that the common people stay pacified and allow them to rule the countries they rule. Something akin to your Cheif Executive... who bowed down to the Muslim fanatics and retracted his statement about modifying blasphemy laws.

In the current scenario, the reason why India is developing closer ties with the Israeli is becuase she realised that friendship with the Arabs got them nothing. The same is true for Pakistan. Besides a token support on the Kashmiri cause (and a line of credit to buy oil) nothing else has been given to you.

The Arabs disdain us both. I have friends in UAE who tell me that the only people whom the Arabs look up to are the Americans and Western Europeans. All else are treated as dirt.

Is it not ironic that the people you look up to as brothers, think nothing of deporting your b-utts back to Pakistan at the drop of a hat. I Paki cab driver in Chicago, informed me that he was detained for over a week in a Saudi lockup for over a week, just for double parking. There was no judge and no charges were filed. There was no law either which dictated that the offence for double parking was a week long sentence !

This is one of the reasons why I find it so hard to understand why the Pakis, like to bow down for the Arabs.

AD

AD and RSaxena !

So you think Saudi rule is non-Muslim and Saudi-Arabia non-Islamic country.

That is why they are so pragmatic.

Shame--Shame on you for your lack of consistency.

Reply #: 94

krashid

``

As far as Standing of India in Arab world even in Saudi. Don`t you think it proves my point that Muslim rule is pragmatic, and has been pragmatic, inspite of all bashing by you and your countrymen against the intolerant religion ISLAM.

``

--The Shaikhs who rule the gulf care only for their pertro-dollars. They couldn`t care a rat`s ass about Islam. The only reason why they still pretend to be muslims, is because they fear that the hard core mullahs might cause a revolt against them.

Most of these shaikhs enjoy wine, women and song. They go to Monte Carlo and spend millions on Bacarrat. They maintain harems of women from all over the world. (Price Jaffery of Brunei is a good example).

So for you to come out use the examples of these people, is unjustified. Because by breaking the rule of not drinking they ceased to be muslims, correct ?

AD

Re: krashid

You wrote:

``As far as Standing of India in Arab world even in Saudi. Don`t you think it proves my point that Muslim rule is pragmatic, and has been pragmatic, inspite of all bashing by you and your countrymen against the intolerant religion ISLAM.``

So if I am reading you correctly, the Arab world is pragmatic (hence it`s good standing with India) and Pakistan is NOT. Good, very good. That`s what I`ve been saying for a long time. So how come your cousins Westward are so much smarter than you?

In my post #91

Read conscience (if somebody has one) and not consciousness. The same in next libe.

That was not deliberate and only reflects mismatch of thought process, vocabulary and typing fingers.

RSaxena #90

This sham democracy is still working at the cost of hundreds of thousands of human life. So can a dictatorship.

As far as Standing of India in Arab world even in Saudi. Don`t you think it proves my point that Muslim rule is pragmatic, and has been pragmatic, inspite of all bashing by you and your countrymen against the intolerant religion ISLAM.

It also shows Muslim think in terms of reality and make their opinion based on objective analysis and pragmatic consideration.

These only prove your biased attitude towards Islam and Muslims is not only unfounded but blatant distortion and not the other way round which you are trying to prove.

Thanks for the Compliment ylh.

I am ``Guftar Ka Ghazi``. I am just taking care of my family.

The people who are in active politics in Pakistan both right and left are doing a great job. If we can survive a couple of years, and politicians are involved in politics, I think we are moving in a right direction.

Particularly the devolution of power will not only break the power of few families who rule Pakistan, but will also break the power of beureaucracy (not break it, but break the power). The current leaders have been in politics for decades and I am pretty sure they are experienced enough.

The trends in Pakistan look good to me. Only if we can come out of clutches of IMF and World Bank. i.e a little self sufficient.

Hum Log #2

Now the concept of God. As is well known, that the question is Did God created us or we created God?. The concept of God will always be taken in the context of society in which people will think about it. Like in Islamic Fiqh and thought, on which a cap was placed in 3rd century of Islam, the God is created in the image of a Ruthless ruler by pure Islamist. That served the purpose of rulers of that time. Since the economics was also very primitive, and people were dependent on nature and also human attacks, God played more importance. The Islamist taking the mission of God have taken upon themselves to fulfil HIS mission and take the authority in HIS name. But since Islamic society was a dynamic society, there were eminent scholars who were taking the opposite view within the Islamic perspective. Averroes later proved to be most influential.

We will continue to be a slave of our time and space.

I am a firm believer in God. As you say Brahman or Yazdan. I am bound to do it because of my birth.

Another aspect Jihad. In Islam Jihad is divided in Jihad Sughra (Bigger Jihad) which is against self (more akin to christians) and Jihad Sughra (or smaller Jihad) which is to fight till the religion remains for Allah. Due to successes of Muslim invasions over past centuries, Muslim Ulema are still in the Euphoria of thinking in the same terms. Although, I believe that Muslim Jihad in this century is basically a movement of resistance against imperialist designs of making the world their colony. If you are aware of Leninist theory of Imperialism. Acquisition and merger of Capital is one of the hallmark of it, which we are seeing at a massive scale in the last couple of yeras. Also, the current use UNO by Americans is a blatant use of an institution for its design of protecting the Capital. Also you might be aware of a theory that independent Kashmir can serve as a base for America etc etc.

What is the fault of Taleban, or Kashmiris. OK they are against democracy.

Tell me what was the fault of Erbakan party in Turkey, who was toppled by America or Islamic Salvation Front in Algeria, which led America to support a dictatorship and ban it. They were part of democratic system and were playing by the rules set by America for the whole world. So just labelling is not the solution. You have to see all perspective.

Humlog !

Although, I have raised the valid points, like America (Whose motto is In God we Trust) is propping up all dictatorial regime in Muslim World, and there are movements against these in Islamic world (and much loathed Osama bin Laden is also doing that). Also the annexation of Kashmir by India is justified because India is a secular country and if Kashmir cannot remain with India then it means Indian Secularism cannot survive. And it has used force and using force to do this. So in effect India is using force to protect its ideological boundary. So my point was is it only unjustified to protect ideological boundaries, if done in the name of Islam and not secularism. (keeping in mind use of force).

Now if you think these are ramblings, may it be. I think they are valid points.

Now you have refuted on two counts.

1- Fear of God and 2- Jihad.

1- In Islamic concept God is all powerful. He is benevolent also. In fact quality of benevolence is 786 times in Koran. He is to be feared, for wrong deeds. Which as somebody points out can be replaced by consciousness in atheist world. But in contrast to consciousness (if somebody has one) which will continue to irritate you, your whole life, God can expiate. I am just giving the brief introduction. But my thinking is this that this is a very effective check on excesses in society.

To be continued to #2

SameerJB, I think we`re on the same wavelength on this. It makes me sick to read some of the passionate defense of teaching ``fear of God`` and religion to young children. Can they not be taught right and wrong by their parents and teachers without instilling fear in them? A child is not born with biological knowledge of 1+1=2 yet he or she learns it without any element of fear. Religion does more harm than good and in our parts of the world and it allows these brainwashed kids to be easily exploited as adults by fanatics.

It always amuses me when Asians lecture to American morals and social problems. Despite those problems, the common man there is still far better off than anywhere in Asia, especially South Asia. No country is perfect...let`s not malign their whole system until there`s a better one.

Krashid, this ``sham democracy`` still works better than your Islamic dictatorship which is shunned and isolated by the entire world, including many Muslim nations.