A Different Story

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The Indo-Pak conflict over Kashmir has come to a very critical stage. It is high time that we cure the disease rather than its symptoms. The fact goes like this. Immediately after independence, India was on a mission to unite the kingdom states.Kashmir had an amusing situation.It was a muslim dominated state, but the king was a hindu.Then came the war and as most point out though the king was not interested to be in India,but under the circumstances he had no option but to accede to India as he needed Army immediately to contain Pak troop. It is the religion which makes the strongest bond.The majority of muslims of Kashmir naturally want to go to Pak or form an independent state.Either of them favours Pakistan.The truth is that if Indian Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan, it is well and good otherwise also Pakistan is not that interested to get Indian Kashmir as it is to see Kashmir being disowned by India.So an independent Kashmir also would mean a diplomatic victory of Pak over India. Another thing to be noted that where as Pak is able to keep its portion of Kashmir peacefully, why India-owned Kashmir is boiling? Who is responsible for it?How long would it continue? Can we have a peaceful and a permanent solution to it?

I commend your cautious optimism which is not supported by the ground realities.

How `ll India/Pakistan come to terms on Kashmir.India despite all the social problems at home is making giant-strides in IT/economy.It has a democracy,not perfect,but which is acknowledged by the leading nations.So India has the financial/diplomatic clout enough to carryon illegal occupation of Kashmir and nobdy seems to botherPakistan is ruled by its army-an anathema in the world today.The army took-over because of the political/moral bankrupcy of NS and his predecessor.I do not imply that the ruler-general is a Buzurg as we all know.Since fear/terror rules the land,people tend to look the other way.In such a situation nobody takes us seriously;who will represent Pakistan?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/nov/14pok.htm
Pak accused of settling terrorists in PoK

sb #285
You ask : ``As we attribute the blame to the militants from all over, should we not, collectively, care to debate/understand the reasons for the situation taking this turn? Take measures to prevent such situations in future?``

And ``Where was the mainstream press then? (and where is it now?)``

To your first question, the answer is yes. IMO that debates have always been taking place, but by specialists and academics, not enough in the mainstream media or `public discourse`. But such discourse has not been absent either, its just that the initiative for political solutions has mainly rested with the government of the day.

I donot have a authoritative answer to your second question, either, though I do know mainstream media figures like Tavleen Singh and MJ Akbar published books on Kashmir in the mid 90s.
btw, here is a Kashmir bibliography
http://www.kashmirgroup.freeserve.co.uk/bibliography.htm

Here is some more reading material I have to read, too :-).
http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1719/17190890.htm
Article 370: Law and politics

http://www.bgu.ac.il/humphrey/seminar/article%20samaddar.htm
Governing through Peace Accords – A Democratic Inquiry

Sadhana

Krashid # 280, # 288

You have mentioned about persecution of minorities in India. I would like to mention that I am an Indian Muslim and I have never faced any discrimination in India. I grew up in South Delhi, that could have a lot to do with it. But I have met a lot of muslim`s from Mumbai, Bangalore, Bhopal who feel the same way.

This in not to say there are no anti minority riots etc. etc. in India. India is a large nation with a lot happening, not all of it is good.

I just wanted to mention there is no mass persecution of minorities in India, if there is me and a quite a few of my friends haven`t experienced it. India has a long way to go in making her minorities more comfortable. But RSS is not the only villain, there are a lot of minority organizations with a similar ideology trying to fragment Indian socity. India is secular because a large section of the Indian society wants India to be secular

You have often mentioned you are better off than your Indian relatives. I would like to mention that my grand father`s brother decided to stay back in Karachi after the partition. His grandson i.e. my cousin brother and his wife were murdered in anti shia riots in Karachi. That is not to say that shia`s are being killed in Karachi, but it does happen some times.

Regards,

Faruk

Jinnah`s grave is made of Marble .. and the real grave is underneath... so I guess it is hard to pour water on it .... however Jinnah would definitely approve!

Remember the first ever Presiding chairman of the Pakistan Constituent Assembley was a scheduled Caste member! :)

I am coming to San Jose in a week`s time .... Hope we can chat over cofee...

:)

Yasser Hamdani

Gymnosophist #264

You have not seen the grave of Jinnah, otherwise you would not write pour water on it.

You are most welcome to do ``Fatiha`` or pray for him, which is done on any grave.

What is the point in making the Ram Mandar alongwith Kaaba is beyond my comprehension. The point is that you accept the other people as they are instead of trying to create an artificial harmony. If you respect other people, your point of view will change.

Demolition of Babri mosque is just a manifestation of how much you care about the largest minority in your country rather than against Aurangzeb or Babar. They are not alive to see what you are doing to them but Muslim minority is there to feel the punch.

In response to gymnosophist (Reply # 284)
Dear Gymnosophist:

Your statement: ``As far as Babri Masjid is concerned, I am thinking of starting a subscription drive to build a Ram temple right next to the mosque at Mecca.``

Comment: Why would you like to do it? Would it be a wise move? Please explain your viewpoint more clearly.

I wonder if such kind of responses make people like krashid more angry. I am sure this is not your intent. Interfaith communication and friendship is far more complex issue than what most Chowk posts seem to suggest.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

krashid: ``But why a person should have to leave his culture and identity. A person can and should retain his culture and identity and participate in life.``

Can you be sarcastic!

Sadhana: The `Contours of Militancy` link you posted - I couldnt finish reading it till 2-3 days ago, so the delay in replying. The first few pages of the (13 pg) article was what I was writing about in an earlier mail. And towards the end Noorani says even today people do not want to believe that without the Kashmiri support, the state wouldnt have been bloody now. As we attribute the blame to the militants from all over, should we not, collectively, care to debate/understand the reasons for the situation taking this turn? Take measures to prevent such situations in future?

I Gandhi, being the shrewd politician that she was twisted around some very reasonable demands from the people and aggravated the problems, be it Punjab, Assam or Kashmir. Where was the mainstream press then? (and where is it now?) And each time a member of the Gandhi family is killed, hundreds of innocent people die on the streets. How dare, how freaking dare, Rajiv Gandhi say what he did about the `84 riots?

If I am digressing, feel free to change the course.

Ref krashid #: 280

You said {If you consider the situation in India with saffron brigade with demolition of Babri mosque, killing of thousands of Muslims, Sikhs and Christians etc. The minorities in Pakistan are living in paradize.}

I guess the fact that Muslim countries in general and Pakistan in particular are so protective of their religious minorities is supported by articles auch as ``The Hidden Hindus`` and ``Protest in New York`` on the Chowk.

Do you think on a visit to Karachi I should drink a little bit of water from a glass and pour the rest on Jinnah`s grave to prove that we Hindus are giving up the idea of non-interaction between the two religions? Do you think Jinnah would approve? How about you -- would you approve?

As far as Babri Masjid is concerned, I am thinking of starting a subscription drive to build a Ram temple right next to the mosque at Mecca. Can I get you to shell out some money for this gesture of interfaith friendship and amity? Considering that you are earning big bucks in the US, how about a $1000 contribution? Unless, of course, you can afford more.

Assad_K

This is not my discussion, but my name is coming up repeatedly here. This air of injured innocence displayed by you is really interesting. My last posts addressed to you provided you a reference which contained some arguments AGAINST my own points of view. Amazingly these posts seem to have constituted labelling you a jihadi. I will have to think twice before doing such a heinious thing again.

assadk,

[...`Isn`t it convenient that Bilal doesn`t bring up Kashmir, which entitles him to a `Bilal` response? One wonders what sadna or RSax - or you - would have to say were he to suggest India was less than kosher in that respect..
...`]

well, i thought you had been here long enough, but apparently you have not. suffice it to say, that bilal isn`t shy about suggesting `less than kosher`. you may have to go back to articles earlier this year or late last year to see that though. many, including myself, have interacted with him on the `less than kosher` aspect and i do not remember anyone calling him a `jahil jihadi`.

[...Oh, right.. you only said that since I was clarifying what seemed a murky point by krashid, I was agreeing with his worldview and suggesting jihad upon India...]

the `point` didn`t seem `murky` to me at all (based on earlier writings of krashid), and therefore, your sentence `though his remark won`t seem far off the mark if posters here are any indication` threw me off a bit. anyway...i already said that was in fun.

[..still not drinking coffee - and proud of it...]

i personally prefer tea as well - darjeeling variety. :O)

Concerned

I regard decaff as I regard anything with the world `diet` before the name.. ie `What is this cr *p?

Isn`t it convenient that Bilal doesn`t bring up Kashmir, which entitles him to a `Bilal` response? One wonders what sadna or RSax - or you - would have to say were he to suggest India was less than kosher in that respect..

[well i didn`t call you any names, did i? ]

Oh, right.. you only said that since I was clarifying what seemed a murky point by krashid, I was agreeing with his worldview and suggesting jihad upon India.. well, obviously, my error..

[i was merely pointing out that the `fascinating mindset` (`sweeping generalization` is what i understood from that) that you accused others of, is precisely what you continue to display.]

Cool.. so what did I generalize you into? And how was it inaccurate, giving your initial lumping of me into a particular mindset?

Cheers, AK

(still not drinking coffee - and proud of it)

Gymnosophist#

continuation from previous.

Considering the number of minorities i.e 3% with 2% christians (a remnant of Hindu caste system) and 1% rest of minorities, they are doing as much as their colleagues. In each Medical school class there are 3-4 Hindus in 300-400. Anybody coming in merit is admitted. It is not required of them to change their name. Like I have not met a Hindu with the name Hussain (although there might be) Murli Dhar, Ashok Kumar, Kailash, etc I don`t think are Muslim names were my colleagues. In this regard other minorities do even better like Parsis or Qadianis etc.

Also I have not seen Christian with Muslim names (All prophets are common between Muslims and Christian except Mohammed PBUH) And Yusuf Yohanna or Yunus Iftikhar etc are as much Muslim as Christian. My grand father name was Musa although he is a Muslim.

In fact minority problem at people interaction level is not a problem in Pakistan, nor in merit etc. Only Mullah try to play unsuccessfully but to the level of blasphemy law.

If you consider the situation in India with saffron brigade with demolition of Babri mosque, killing of thousands of Muslims, Sikhs and Christians etc. The minorities in Pakistan are living in paradize.