Living in an Object Oriented World

Lier Bhadave,

You finally got nailed. The Star did not have the stupid quote you lifted, did it? You yourself could have written that crap on sulekha like anyone else. It was not in the Star, Toronto as you claimed. If you can read English, read again what you posted here #56 like a shameless lier.

[It is from Vedic mathematics and Sanskrit to Information and Robotics age. The best science fictions in the world are still behind, what Indians have documented in pre-historic era`` ````

Quotes from Star,Toranto

ROTFL ...oma..ha ha ha:-)]

Any mention here that this was a comment from sulekha where you youself could have posted that crap?

Bhadave,

You are a lier. A straightfaced lier. Anybody who doubts that you are a lier can check on their own in two minutes.

Bhadava posts (#56) -

[``It is from Vedic mathematics and Sanskrit to Information and Robotics age. The best science fictions in the world are still behind, what Indians have documented in pre-historic era`` ````

Quotes from Star,Toranto]

He claims this quote is from Star, Toronto, and not from Sulekha. The article he is talking of is still availalbe here -

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=999986708567&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News&col=968793972154

STAR ARTICLE DOES NOT SAY THE CRAP BHADAVA SAYS IT SAID.

What a disgrace we have liers here misleading people.

In response I gave him a real quote from the stupid publishers of the revival -

The Revival, Official Newsletter of Muslim Youth League, Volume 3 Issue 3, Dec/Jan 2000

QURAN TALKS ABOUT ASTRONOMY, COSMOLOGY, ASTROPHYSICS, GENERAL THEORY OF RELATIVITY, THEORY OF THE END OF THE UNIVERSE, THE BLACK HOLE, CARDIOLOGY, MEDICINE, DNA, WATER CYCLE-AND THE LIST IS ENDLESS.

Bhadava you and all Pakistanis like you are a disgrace. You lift things from Sulekha where you youself could have written this crap and claim it is from the Star. Fool, do you know they could sue you for libel?

http://sulekha.com/hoppercomments.asp?cid=142391

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view this users filtered interacts

Bhadava,

This is what you wrote -

[``It is from Vedic mathematics and Sanskrit to Information and Robotics age. The best science fictions in the world are still behind, what Indians have documented in pre-historic era`` ````

Quotes from Star,Toranto

ROTFL ...oma..ha ha ha:-)

and the best joke is yet to come .How could we want to live for to morrow if no such amusing hope never exsisted.You `killinyourself addicts ,sharabi ,alcoholics ,death wish experimenter with xtc``,you lost touch with the world ,look whats happening around you .ITS REAL HIGH .to stunn the inebriated to super conscious level. * *]

You were acting very wise. I showed you your face in a mirror and gave a real quote. Now you either accept you were lying making things up or give us the reference for what you wrote.

Bhardwaj

Either own up that you are a lier or I am going to paste here more real crap from muslim youth`s mind and the book you worship even today. We want to hear you laugh and ROTFL.

Bhardwaj

Do not run away from your laughing and rotfl. You made things up, just like people like you do. I gave you the facts, the reference. You are a lier.

Bhardwaj

Can you give more of what you are quoting plus reference? Something more for you to laugh at while you and your friends conspire to bomb other American installations and kill more innocent people. I will also give you the reference -

The Revival, Official Newsletter of Muslim Youth League, Volume 3 Issue 3, Dec/Jan 2000

QURAN TALKS ABOUT ASTRONOMY, COSMOLOGY, ASTROPHYSICS, GENERAL THEORY OF RELATIVITY, THEORY OF THE END OF THE UNIVERSE, THE BLACK HOLE, CARDIOLOGY, MEDICINE, DNA, WATER CYCLE-AND THE LIST IS ENDLESS.

Not sure of any of that but I have heard it does teach how to shi *t - a high-tech manouvre for desert nomads like you.

``It is from Vedic mathematics and Sanskrit to Information and Robotics age. The best science fictions in the world are still behind, what Indians have documented in pre-historic era`` ````

Quotes from Star,Toranto

ROTFL ...oma..ha ha ha:-)

and the best joke is yet to come .How could we want to live for to morrow if no such amusing hope never exsisted.You `killinyourself addicts ,sharabi ,alcoholics ,death wish experimenter with xtc``,you lost touch with the world ,look whats happening around you .ITS REAL HIGH .to stunn the inebriated to super conscious level. * *

Another one garantee to detox all your beer before they become your urine anyway

PREYING ON INDIAN FEARS



If Islamabad wants to take advantage of the Indian discomfort to face Pakistanis upfront, it is essential for the government to make a specific Indian market entry and penetration strategy

By Andleeb Abbas

It is amazing how nations expose their insecurities and fears by making irrational policy decisions. As expected, India refused to play Pakistan in the Asian Cricket Championship. This refusal is symbolic of Indian hypocrisy and idiosyncrasy. Relations between India and Pakistan have been a victim of Indian hesitancy and distrust and Pakistan`s inability to counter the Indian evasion of key issues. India, as a nation, has always feared defeat at the hands of Pakistanis.

They only went to play the game when the rules of the game are deliberately twisted in their favour.



That is why they are willing to participate in the SAF games and not on the cricket playing field. This attitude also explains their stance on Kashmir as well as on resumption of trade ties with Pakistan. They want 100 per cent Pakistani compromise on both issues before they settle them. They fear that the Kashmiris might choose to go along with Pakistan, if given the right of self-determination, and they are also unsure about the Indian products` ability to sweep away the Pakistani markets. Thus, until these fears loom large in the Indian mind, Delhi will find excuses to avert and avoid direct confrontations on the cricket, economic, and political grounds.

The cultural gap: Though the West sees the subcontinent as one segment with great cultural overlapping between the two countries, people on both sides of the border have a great deal of cultural dissimilarities. On the face of it, India looks a much poorer country than Pakistan. May be it is due to the greater number of poor that you see in the capital city New Delhi or perhaps the lifestyle of the Indians, which creates this impression, but the fact is that on first impression Pakistan looks a more well-off nation.

Leaving aside Islamabad, which is perhaps not the right representative of a country as poor as Pakistan, even Lahore and Faisalabad look positively affluent compared to Delhi and Haryana. The common sight in India of people sleeping on roadsides in the worst of weather and dying of starvation is rarely visible in Pakistan.

In a city like Lahore even if you do not earn a penny, you can still avoid starvation by going to Data Darbar, where you get a 24-hour supply of excellent food and shelter. The Indians are basically frugal and extremely saving oriented; the Pakistanis basically consumption-oriented and ostentatious. The upper class in India will have a much more subdued lifestyle than their counterparts in Pakistan. Property and electricity prices are much higher in India. In extreme cold weather very few rich Indian homes will have electric heaters, as we do in Pakistan. They are born and bred with a sense of cautious usage of these utilities, while a typical Pakistani elite will feel degraded and insulted if he is subject to constant switching on and off of heaters and air-conditioners. The elaborate nature of Pakistanis is never more visible than on festive occasions.

Be it Eid, Basant or marriages, and regardless of the class you belong to, it is a must that overspending and exaggerated rituals and fun will be the norm in this country. The pre-marriage rituals of mehndi and mayon, etc, are all blamed on an Indian heritage. Yet the Indian marriages today are much more simple than the Pakistani marriages. In fact, the Indians are totally fascinated and amazed at the lavish and spectacular display of food, fireworks and fun exhibited by the Pakistanis on these occasions. The Pakistanis love Indian cinema and the Indians love Pakistani TV soap operas. The Pakistani audience is starved of good movie entertainment due to the almost non-existence of the industry in their own country. The Indian public is amazed at the talent, style and level of humour displayed on the Pakistani mini-screen. Cricket in India is religion. They worship cricketers. The Indian public lives, dies and swears by Tendulkar and Ganguly. Yet their team has never made it to the top. Behind this lack of success is their cautious, timid and nervous culture. They lack the killer instinct.

The Pakistani cricket team with their open and daredevil attitude may be regarded as the most unpredictable and inconsistent team in the world, yet has many a time, reached unbelievable heights. This scares the Indians.

Many a time in the past the Indian wheeler dealers, afraid of the public reaction against defeat to Pakistan, has been alleged of paying off some Pakistani cricketers to play badly, or have actually attached them to some famous Indian heroines to dilute their concentration and focus. This fear of defeat has now over a period of time turned into a phobia and has now reached a stage where the Indian team will never quite have the guts to face the Pakistani team with any degree of confidence.

The political gap: A similar fear has now started creeping in the Indian political camp. The Agra summit was a moral victory for the Pakistanis. The typical cautious and careful movements of the Indians were shaken badly by the blunt and almost brutal verbal attack of the Pakistani president. The press conference with the Indian media elite was supposed to be a typical public relations protocol event of Indian diplomacy.

The president took them by surprise by being outspoken, bold and straightforward. The Indian media not used to such an open and direct approach were surprised and were quite enamoured by the style. The Indian politicians afraid of this fascination turning into a criticism towards themselves, quickly adopted the typical hardline attitude of Kashmir vs militant training issue, to divert attention and also to dilute the charismatic effect of the president`s media rhetoric.

As we have noticed that, with the passage of time, the Agra summit, which ended with declarations of substantial progress, has been termed almost as a failure by both sides. Although the Indian prime minister has accepted the invitation to visit Pakistan, he has not given any clue as to what time period does he have in his mind. In fact, the possibility of both the heads of state meeting at the UN also looks remote. The hesitancy again lies in the Indian camp, which does not have the courage to face a direct confrontation at an event where most of the world`s media will be on stage.

This tentative Indian spirit continues to haunt the Indian/Pakistani trade front as well. India has granted Pakistan the MFN status and makes a lot of noises about the fact that Pakistan has not reciprocated by granting the MFN status to them. In principle they are right. Pakistan should be returning the favour. In practice, it is not clear whether Pakistan has benefited from this status. Due to this status many Pakistani products should be exported freely to India, as duties and trade barriers do not impede their flow. Yet when you look at the trade balance, hardly any of these products are finding entry into the Indian markets. The reason being the presence of non-tariff barriers.

The documentation procedures, product testing, product standards, labelling, etc, are deliberately so cumbersome that the products find it extremely difficult to either reach on time, or enter at a competitive price. In the recent meeting of the ministers of commerce of the two countries where India removed duties from 50 products coming from Pakistan, Commerce Minister Razzak Dawood very clearly pointed out that removing tariff barriers and ignoring non-tariff barriers rendered the MFN principle invalid.

Conclusion: The reality may be pointing out the typical Indian as being cautious, frugal, timid and backhanded, but the the world perception about the Indians is of being literate, sensible, hard-working and determined; and yes perception is reality. The Indians do invite world attention. The Europeans and the Americans recognise them as the second biggest emerging giant after China, and thus they meet them with a great deal of more respect than Pakistanis. This Indian dominance is not only visible in the West but in the Middle East also.

In Dubai and Abu Dhabi, you see Indians dominating all multinational ranks and owning all retail and wholesale property. The Pakistanis may be brilliant here and there, but are generally perceived as unreliable. The reason for this inflated Indian image is: the Indians are much more literate and more work oriented than Pakistanis. The literacy rate is about 30 per cent higher in India than in Pakistan. One of the biggest differences in the work ethics in India compared to Pakistan is the role of women in creating a working culture over there.

Most women start working at an early age and become career-oriented by the time they reach their twenties. In Pakistan most of the educated women look down upon working and career orientation. The Indians are more nationalistic and group oriented compared to Pakistanis. Any Indian student going abroad to study will have a number of Indian help groups advising him and helping them to settle in a foreign land, while a Pakistani student will face a strange attitude of ``I can`t help you much`` written on his fellow students when he tries to approach them in the foreign land. Similarly, you will find banks and other companies in the Middle East supporting Indians and facilitating whole groups of Indian families by referring them to other companies.

A Pakistani will be afraid to give another Pakistani a job, because he will fear being undercut by him. It is unfortunate that, despite being equally or more talented than their Indian counterparts, most of the time they became a victim of the preconceived nations the world has about them. The Indians must be given full marks for using their resources and skills to the maximum. A typical example of this is that the Indian women despite their modest looks, have managed to win the title of Miss World and Miss Universe consistently in the last five years. The moral of the story is that individually and occasionally talent and brilliance may win a few games, but to become a consistent performer, team spirit and professional dedication is the name of the game.

Thus if Pakistan wants to take advantage of this Indian discomfort to face Pakistanis upfront, it is essential for the government to make a specific Indian market entry and penetration strategy. A study to analyse which areas of collaboration would be beneficial and which areas of confrontation would be fruitful is mandatory. As the Indians are already on the back foot, the Pakistani political and economic managers must put together a sound strategy which attacks the Indian weaknesses of avoidance and caution, by using the Pakistani strengths of an all out but united victory march, both at home and on foreign grounds.

Beginning of a balancing act-II

Zahra

Chocolat takes you thru such a wide arrray of emotions - which you would hardly feel in a movie. BUt just mentioning Juliette Binoche`s (or is it Pinoche) hairstyle (which was really good) is presenting a very one-sided view - what about Johnny Depp (ai-hai-hai) - why dont men in real life evne remotely resemble the character (and not him per se) he plays in the movie. And what about the lilting soundtrack w/o which it wouldnt have been 1/2 as good. The actual premise - chocolate==hts of ecstasy - was a bit farfetched but overall a v v sweet movie.

And bharatvassi - if you dont mind my saying you seem to be on the wrong board - all the action (political and otherwise) is a few boards below. We are quietly moving onto movies but welcome to comment on this too.

Aamir - ``You dont owe anything to anybody ,not even an explanation``

I agree - tedious - but then how do you explain the little somethings (usually 180 degrees) that are lost betw expression and comprehension???

aicha

Shape of Knowledge:

Convocation Address at the University of Delhi

Romila Thapar

(The author is perhaps the most admired Indian historian today. In her Convocation Address at the University of Delhi few months ago, she shared some of her anxieties about the state of education and the enterprise of knowledge in contemporary India, which is currently under siege by the forces of Hindu chauvinism. Her appearance at the Convocation was bitterly resented by the forces of Hindutva, who stated, among other things, that she did not deserve to be on the stage. Prof. Thapar, like most of her fellow historians, took it in her stride.

We are grateful to her for readily agreeing to let us publish this address in Akhbar)



Vice-Chancellor, the Faculty and Students of Delhi University, Distinguished Guests, Ladies and Gentlemen. Having once almost graduated from this University and having later had a close association with it as a member of the Faculty, I feel immensely privileged at being invited to deliver the Convocation Address this morning, and I deeply appreciate the honour. What I have to say is largely a thinking aloud of thoughts that concern us as members of university communities. Since convocation addresses tend to be a mix of reminiscence and sermonising, I intend to do both.

Entering a new millennium raises hopes even though for us the millennium has begun badly with the nightmare in Gujarat. The only consolation is that if the rebuilding can be done creatively then the hopes remain. As has often been said the start of this millennium has coincided with new ways of approaching knowledge and more than that with making knowledge accessible to as many people as possible. Its impact has been compared to that of the printing press, although in another historical context. Given the change in the technology of communication - the use of the chip -and the many directions that this communication can take, accessibility to knowledge should normally be taken for granted, provided the infrastructure is in place. Accessibility has become a subject of discussion although the kind of knowledge to be accessed is less widely discussed and seems to me to be more important.

But the millennium is not just a time marker. It is also symbolic of the coming of a Utopia. Utopias alas, do not materialise from wishful thinking, but from a watchful assessment of ideas and activities. The start of a millennium therefore is a heightened moment for pause and for reflection.

A Utopian dream shared by many of us is to make our society a democratic society. For all the mythologies about democracies in pre-modern times, it is only with the emergence of modern institutions and the awareness that goes with them that democratic forms surface. Democracy therefore involves a social mutation. The practice of adult franchise has undoubtedly been impressive despite some shortcomings. But there is much in our way of seeing ourselves that may well require shedding if we are to be frilly democratic. For example, the concept that Indian society is constituted of communities identified by religious identities, and that their functioning as pre-determined majority and minority communities is compatible with democratic functioning, is not a view that I would endorse. It annuls the essential feature of equality within a democracy. It denies tlie other identities that give meaning to our cultural life. But closer to my concern this morning is the link between democracy, education and the acquiring of knowledge.

The system of education as it exists has been described as a kind of apartheid, separating the literate from the non-literate. The simile is more than superficially apt since it is the under-privileged for reasons of social identity and of gender that are often denied literacy. The existing condition is continuously aggravated by rapid changes in the technology of communicating and acquiring knowledge, and by its becoming increasingly the preserve of the few. With more sophisticated technical requirements of education, the divide will become worse. Not only does the lag between the educated and the non-literate in such circumstances become greater but also even literacy by itself becomes inadequate and insufficient. If we had had a commitment to education fifty years ago this lag could have been reduced. As it stands, even if tomorrow, school education is made compulsory and available, there will still be an enormous distance between the literate and those proficient in the skills of modern education. It requires a far more thoughtful education policy than has been proposed to make these skills more widely available. And education is not merely about making millions literate. It is also about citizens realising their rights and their obligations, both necessary to democratic functioning.

The new mantra of Information Technology will not in itself solve the problem since the minimum technological infrastructure required is, as of now, absent in many places. When electricity is irregular and the telephone system, unreliable, the new technology is not of much help: still less will it be for those who have had no education, the implications of accessing knowledge in this form also requires evaluating existing methods of advancing knowledge, some of which might have to be discarded. At the same time we are introducing what are described as traditional Indian methods of handling knowledge, through the curriculum at both school and university. As educators we should appraise these and other innovatory methods; else we may end up in further reinforcing the divide even through the kind of education that we impart. As knowledge advances the methods of advancing knowledge, change. What does remain constant is an attitude of mind that encourages me questioning of theories of explanation and places knowledge in a social context.

The central activity of accessing knowledge is still through an efficient library. We tend to take libraries for granted giving them scant attention even when they are disabled by severe budgetary cuts. Yet the library is at the heart of a university and has to be up-to-date, welcoming and easy to use. `Where knowledge is out-of-date in some centres of learning, it is largely because their libraries cannot buy books or subscribe to journals. This also precludes the creation of a library-using culture, a culture dependent on reading, that is a necessary prelude to academic excellence. Judging by the ease with which we have donated a vast sum of money to Oxford University for establishing a Chair in Indian History, there is obviously no shortage of funds. One wonders though, why the same kind of funding cannot be extended to financing the needs of Indian universities and more particularly the maintenance of libraries. With the new technologies the function of the library will become more complex in terms of storing and retrieving data. The demand for funding libraries will have to be more aggressive.

For the sciences there are at least some centres with good facilities. But scholars in the social sciences work in a more arid terrain. The argument that there is a financial crunch can be met by suggesting ways of rationalising facilities. If even one institute were to be selected for each discipline, with a full coverage of up-to-date journals and publications--national and international--placed in a properly organised library with facilities for using the library, research would become less of a hassle. Such library centres could for instance, provide material in disciplines where much of the frontline research is published in journals. That so much quality research is carried out under adverse conditions remains almost miraculous. If the facilities could be better organised the quality would be more widespread. This would also force us to focus on what is badly needed, namely, the continual re-assessing and revising of the courses that we teach in universities. Up-dating courses can often be a prior requirement to introducing new ones.

At the other end of the spectrum, children at school need to be weaned away from a reliance solely on textbooks and the system of learning passages by rote and regurgitating them in examinations. The alternative would be to nurture a wider habit of reading. This too requires well-equipped school libraries.

It is curious that the Indian middle class, which has been so clued into making demands of various kinds, including the virtual reversal of the economy in the last decade, has been silent about the appalling situation regarding schooling. Nor has there been much concern about the quality of what goes into the school curriculum. The intention seems to focus on ensuring high marks in examinations to carry a student forward into higher education. This has been taken to almost self-defeating lengths as the criterion for university entrance. Such an indifference to the potential of the meaning of education results from attitudes that support education as largely an avenue to privilege. Where students come from diverse social backgrounds, and are encouraged to observe the world around them and where education is treated as a form of self-expression, the exploration of knowledge carries a richer promise. Recent activity relating to the education of women and understanding their concerns has provided challenging insights into society as a whole, resulting in a more realistic exploration of knowledge.

Governments have repeatedly denied appropriate budgets for education. One explanation is that this points to the fear of an educated electorate, and of people understanding and demanding then- rights and calling for the accountability of governments. We have ample funds for financing nuclear bombs but not for setting up schools, even though it has been said time and again that the fall out effect of more schools will bring about an infinite improvement of our society.

Universities too show little interest in school curriculum, not even at the secondary school level. The catchment area for universities lies in such schools yet we continue to endorse a top-down education system giving priority to higher education without an adequate infrastructure for secondary schools. There could be far more useful interlocking between school and university. Undergraduate teaching for example could have an interface with secondary school teaching, especially with the school leaving year. Some of the liveliest discussions on the nitty-gritty of teaching history that I have participated in have been with secondary school teachers.

If the quality of school education was also to be commented on by those teaching the same discipline at University, then there might be some helpful evaluation of what is being taught. For example, there is a proposal to introduce some new subjects at both school and university level: Vedic mathematics in school and Astrology at university. Mathematics plays a pivotal role in the sciences. In recent times it has entered some social sciences as well through the use of statistics, or as in econometrics. Yet one has seen little in the way of informed discussion on the required pedagogy for the introduction of Vedic mathematics. Surely by now those who teach mathematics should have published analyses of the proposed system with discussions as to whether it is superior to normal mathematics as is claimed Those proposing the change would be expected to provide annotated bibliographies and manuals for teachers to prepare for teaching an altogether new system. To give currency to Vedic mathematics is a substantial change in the discipline and would also affect the teaching of mathematics at under­graduate level.

Yet few mathematicians have either explained the new system or commented on it or objected to it, in terms of the school curriculum and the kind of pedagogy involved. The occasional comment opposing it argues that there is no such system as Vedic mathematics: that at best it is an arbitrary collection of information, not sophisticated enough to constitute a system. It pertains to methods of calculation and to geometry based on references in the Vedic corpus. The frequently quoted example is the measuring and constructing of altars for conducting Vedic rituals. Those of us, who are not mathematicians but can see that such a change would have a range of consequences for education, are waiting for an enlightened debate on how it will affect mathematics in India in the context of contemporary systems of knowledge.

Teaching Astrology at university level will run into confrontations with established knowledge. If it is introduced as a specifically Indian contribution it will be contradicting the history of the ideas with which it claims association. The history of Astrology in India is often confused with the history of astronomy. In the texts from the early past, the interface between astronomy, mathematics and astrology was initially close but gradually astrology attracted different practitioners from astronomy and mathematics. Even where in some writings a degree of overlap was projected, the significant feature of the discourse was that it was cosmopolitan and acknowledged as such. Varahamihira states that the Hellenistic Greeks, the Yavanas, were worthy of being treated as rishis because of their advanced knowledge, even though they were socially mlecchas--outside the pale of caste society. The interweaving of astronomy and mathematics in the study of solar movements and the planets from the mid-first millennium AD has to be differentiated from earlier systems. The great leap forward in the theories of Aryabhatta and Bhaskara was not in astrology but in mathematics and astronomy. There were long and continuing debates during the next few centuries over the relatively new theories. The significant point was the precision of the data (within the framework of their knowledge), the rational and logical basis of the argument and the manner in which the theory was formulated. Views earlier thought to be heterodox, if they advanced knowledge were frequently incorporated. There was a continuing exchange of ideas on mathematics, astronomy and medicine with Arab centres. These in turn were to have links with emerging centres in Europe. Ideas developed in astronomy and mathematics may be reflected in some notions of astrology but the distinction was recognised. This distinction is significant to understanding what is now sometimes referred to as Indian knowledge. In the making of this knowledge and in various other systems of knowledge from the past, there were contributions from scholars elsewhere in Asia and the Mediterranean, even if some of the breakthroughs as it were, came from Indian thinkers.

It is repeatedly said that a university is an institution that imparts knowledge. Perhaps we now need to emphasise that it is as much an institution that explores and experiments with knowledge. This is conceded for the sciences, but less so when it comes to the social sciences. Part of the reason for this may be that the sciences are thought to be value free and more technical and therefore only the trained scientist can assess the value of new ideas. Literary studies can sometimes hide behind the `linguistic turn` made popular through Post-Modernism which can at times obscure the evident argument. But the social sciences investigate the institutions of society and can therefore pose a threat to those who find social change uncomfortable--being edged towards the margins of a school syllabus can scuttle social sciences. They can also be made less relevant by arguing that since many themes in these disciplines are descriptive and therefore less technical, their relevance can be commented upon even by people untrained in the discipline. Both methods are currently in use.

In the transition to democratic functioning within the parameters of the nation state, the social sciences are viewed as more sensitive to national needs and among them, history in particular. There is an assumption that anyone can speak with authority on history--irrespective of whether such a person can handle the technical complexities of the sources, or at a further remove, the theoretical underpinnings of historical societies.

Disciplines in the social sciences have in recent decades lost their innocence. Generalisations are now being subjected to cross examinations that take into account the validity of the sources and the logic of the argument and the applicability of the ensuing generalisation. At a serious level therefore, there is bound to be a distancing from the non-professional. This has become normal in contemporary higher education 111 advanced centres, even though it introduces another set of concerns in the public communication of knowledge. I am not arguing that disciplines have a pristine purity that has to be protected from non-professionals. But I am arguing that non-professionals, be they politicians or media persons, need to be modest enough to acquire some knowledge of a subject and how it is being handled, before they pronounce upon what they regard as its findings.

There is a brief history to these changes in the social sciences and let me go back to the earlier years of Delhi University. The late 50s and the 60s saw a paradigm shift in the social sciences in India with strengths particularly in areas concerned with the study of under-development, of caste, of class, of problems relating to rural and urban issues. Inevitably history provided a contextual background to these themes. The questions asked by historians also began to differ from what had gone before. A dialogue was started between the disciplines, each refining its analyses and defining its purpose. These were heady days of discussion and debate and many of us teaching at Delhi University were participants. There was the excitement of breaking away from colonial frameworks and discovering new knowledge and in arguing over methodologies and generalisations. The boundaries between disciplines were happily crossed and much was learnt in the process. Conclusions that were tentative and searching to begin with, were tested, and gradually began to replace earlier theories.

These changes had significance even for studies of the societies of the past. Civilisations were no longer graded in terms of which was superior, nor were historians too bothered about which was earlier--or for that matter how indigenous each may have been. Instead attempts were being made to understand the structures of early societies. Some areas of knowledge underwent a major re-orientation and Indology was one of these. We often forget that Indology is in essence a colonial construction. Indologists were by definition non-Indians studying some aspect of India, using methods developed by European scholars in the nineteenth century. The development of the social sciences also influenced Indological studies. Textual and linguistic analyses were continued, but were now accompanied by questions relating 10 agency, audience and intention. The context became significant and analyses moved closer to specific disciplines.

This has relevance to up-dating the systems of knowledge and the inheritance of pre-modern and colonial education. Indian universities it is sometimes said are divorced from the Indian tradition of learning and are colonial interventions in education. Knowledge therefore also needs to be removed from the colonial mould and to be replaced with an Indian form of knowledge or an Indian perception. Unfortunately in some fields, the latter is frequently reduced to being merely a reversal of what has gone before rather than the pursuit of fresh questions emerging from innovative analyses. For example, we are familiar with European Indological scholarship which maintained that the Aryan race invaded India, subjugated the indigenous population and established Vedic culture. The currently popular reversal of this is that everything was indigenous--the Aryans, their language and their culture and they go back to the start of Indian civilisation. Nothing came from outside and the culture was uniform in language and activities. But this reversal takes us nowhere. The reconstruction of the history of these times has to investigate more relevant questions, how do we define Aryan as a language, an ethnic group, a way of life? How did the range of societies evident from archaeology relate to the making of Vedic cultural forms? Given the prevalence of at least three diverse language systems--Indo-Aryan, Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic--what was the process by which Sanskrit became the dominant language in northern India? What is the explanation for the close links of language and concepts in the Iranian Avesta and the Rigveda? The nature of historical questions has changed and reversing an earlier Indological argument does not necessarily enhance knowledge. The replacing of one homogenous history by another-- and a questionable reversal of the first--hardly contributes to our understanding of that society. The history of the multiple cultures of India has parameters other than the usual! And we still have to reflect this in the questions we ask of historical sources.

Debating with heterodoxy is one of the ways of advancing knowledge. But this is not an abstract exercise since `he presence of both the orthodox and the heterodox have a wider social context. This was recognised in the past whether in Buddhist and Jaina monasteries or in Brahman mathas or in Sufi khanqahs. Thus, the significance of Nalanda lies not just in its being a monastic centre of Buddhist learning but also in the fact that sectarian controversies were aired at such places. The Chinese Buddhist monk, Hsuan Tsang, came to Nalanda to collect texts but also to acquaint himself with the controversies.

The pursuit of ideas in centres of learning is also linked to patronage. Nalanda was maintained through a grant of at least one hundred villages. Did these grants influence the prominence given to particular sects and doctrines? Or were institutions of learning expected to accept the patronage, frequently from royalty, but remain independent? Did patronage determine ideology a question that often faces us today? An Indian ruler in the past, be he a Maurya or a Mughal, patronised a range of religious sects irrespective of his own religious identity. Since much of the pursuit of ideas was carried out in monasteries, mathas, khanqahs, madrassas and seminaries, all receiving patronage of various kinds, it would be worth trying to assess the impact of this patronage on teaming and knowledge.

Let me conclude by saving that I have expressed some fears and have made some suggestions. But if this is a moment to pause and to reflect then I think that as a University community our reflections should consider how best we can handle what we are essentially concerned with--what is popularly referred to as the imparting of knowledge. But to use the old cliché, the knowledge has to be relevant. This lies in continually assessing the quality of what is taught. Some of you may feel that I have been tilting at windmills in expressing my fears, but let me say that the process of tilting can often be a useful preliminary to giving form to the future.

Zahra, # 44,

Further to my earlier post , may i suggest an excellent movie to you ,

``Men of Honour `` *ing Robert-de-Nero and Cuba Goodwing Jr.

Speaking of ``HUMAN PERCEPTIONS ``, i think this is a must see .

And hey Zahra , i am not trying to pick up a quarrel here .... so please try to stay cooool !!

cya later .....

p.s. do let me know how u found this movie !

love,

sa:)

what`s this? Even the Islamic Countries of Malaysia, and Indonesia are crying foul or fowl. Terrorists trained in Pakistan and Afghanistan are creating problems there as well. Where will this stop.

This from the Nation check it people. Is it now for real, and now a given (not Indian propaganda)or is Mushahid Hussain sending another message to old Pervez Sahab to perplex him more.



http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/editor/opi1.htm

Pakistan`s emerging image

Mushahid Hussain

A visit to East Asia confirms the growing problem of Pakistan`s image even in those countries that have been close friends. Pakistan is now being presented as a potential trouble-spot, a sort of `danger zone`, as part of what is perceived as a growing international problem that lumps together issues like `extremism, terrorism, fundamentalism`.

America apart, East Asian countries like Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore are now talking in the same language and using the same issues as India has been doing, identifying `cross border terrorism launched from Afghanistan and Pakistan` as a `security threat`. Some examples:

* The CIA`s 100-page report linking global demographic trends with politics and security says `Pakistan seems to encompass the worst of everything` meaning political instability, `Islamic activism`, internal strife, etc;

* Singapore strongman, now its Senior Minister, Lee Kuan Yew, during a September 5 visit to Malaysia warns that `Islamic militancy is growing not only in Afghanistan but in Indonesia and Pakistan and East Asia must be wary of it since our region could be vulnerable to such developments`, adding that `Malaysians who fought in Afghanistan and trained in Pakistan are also involved in militant activities`;

* The Malaysian government recently arrested 10 members of a `Malaysian Mujahideen Group`, and, according to a story carried in the September 10 issue of Time, `all spent time in Pakistan, where weapons and training camps for would-be Mujahideen are common-place`;

* According to Malaysia`s main English daily, The New Straits Times, the role of Osama bin Laden in supporting `Islamic militancy` in Indonesia was recently discussed by President Megawati Sukarnoputri and visiting US Cabinet Minister, Robert Zoellick, and the same newspaper has quoted the Indonesian Deputy Chief of Army Staff, Lt Gen Kiki Syahnakri, as saying: `chances are high that in the next three years, we will fight terrorism, specifically international terrorism that enters Indonesia`;

* Again The New Straits Times, in its main article on the editorial page of its widely-read Sunday edition on September 9, ends its article with a quote from a young would-be mujahid who says about his future plans: `I may get a chance to go to Pakistan and Afghanistan for further training`.

If these are the emerging perceptions of Pakistan among its traditional friends like Malaysia and Indonesia, these are pointers to what is clearly the number one problem in our foreign policy today, since no strategy seems to be in place to understand or counter the problem. It is perhaps no accident that the Indian Prime Minister is planning a visit to Singapore next month, probably as a follow-up to Lee Kuan Yew`s remarks and also to rope in Singapore, Israel`s closest friend in East Asia, for a joint policy regarding `cross-border terrorism`. And Pakistan needs to be worried on this count as already its neighbours and friends like China, Iran, Turkey and the Central Asian states have policies that are diametrically opposite to Pakistan`s on Afghanistan.

Matters are certainly not helped when American policy is wooing India on the one hand and presenting Pakistan in a certain light on the other. The American Ambassador to India, Robert Blackwill, in his policy speech on September 6 in Bombay talks of Indo-American cooperation on `counter terrorism and collaborative efforts to ensure the uninterrupted flow of oil from the Persian Gulf`, hints obviously aimed at India`s elevation to local policeman-cum-American surrogate status in the region.

Regarding presenting Pakistan in a certain light, given the proliferation of conspiracy-theories and the fact of a dependent mind-set among our elite who are ready and willing to believe the worst about Pakistan, the CIA demographic report is basically concerned with the potential political fallout of rising populations, especially the youth. The CIA report says by 2020, Pakistan plus Palestine, Iraq, Yemen and Colombia will have the largest youth populations, and in Pakistan`s case, the youth would be a `ready source of labour for terrorist groups`. The principal concern from the American perspective has been listed as a fear of `new waves of youth-inspired Islamic activism in the Middle East could limit Muslim governments` ability to cooperate with the United States`, more so because the report candidly admits that the youth, unlike the older, traditional Pakistani elite may be less amenable to accommodate American interests.

Interestingly, Karachi, along with Nigeria`s Lagos, have been singled out as `particularly vulnerable mega cities` where `internal stability is threatened by conflict between inhabitants`, although Lahore too is listed as one of the world`s top strife-torn cities since 1989 with a potential for unrest.

Rather than moaning about `anti-Pakistan campaigns and conspiracies`, it is high time the military regime acted to take stock of the situation, understand the problem properly and then formulate a counter strategy based on not just a wish-list of pronouncements. It is not surprising that the country`s biggest domestic problem - grappling with law and order - that is taking its toll with each passing day through orchestrated acts of terrorism is linking up with the biggest problem in foreign policy which is Pakistan`s emerging image as a `problem` country.

An effective strategy needs to be launched on this count. First, everyone is aware of the nature and source of the problem. General Musharraf himself has talked about it several times, most notably his June 6 speech. There is, therefore, no need to reinvent the wheel all the time, and if the military regime, with all the power and resources at its command cannot combat the problem, it will represent its biggest failure. Even revival of economy is inextricably linked to law and order; otherwise no investor will come in. This is something that the military regime cannot do on its own, although its preference normally has been for a `go-it-alone` strategy. There are precedents for the military regime seeking cooperation of the political forces on occasion when it felt compelled to do so, e.g., asking the MQM to ensure a peaceful poll in Karachi through a telephonic talk between its London-based chief and the Interior Minister, or reaching out to the Baloch Sardars regarding prospecting for natural resources in their areas.

Second, Pakistan should stop playing this `catch up with India` game. Pakistan has its own intrinsic importance as a key country in the most strategic part of the world that impinges on foreign policies of the United States, European Union, Russia, China and Japan, and its role would be vital in resolution of key issues that are at the centre-piece of these countries foreign policies. If India musters up 200 plus Congressman to write to President Bush to end sanctions, Pakistan follows-up with 40 plus or so. If President Clinton has to go to India for 5 days, Pakistan has to beg him to come, even if it is for 5 hours, and so it goes on and on. And it should not be insecure about the growing Indo-American intimacy, since Pakistan`s own bond remains resilient and strong with China, the country that is the key to Asia`s future.

Finally, instead of hiring this or that lobbyist, a mistake which all governments in Pakistan repeat, Pakistan needs to have a less bureaucratic, more political approach in handling relations with America. Pakistan is lucky that the Bush administration, unlike its predecessor, is less intrusive in its approach to Pakistan with no pressure to sign the CTBT, and its foreign policy agenda is largely driven by domestic American politics and the preference for policies that will ensure President Bush`s re-election. Take the example of America`s Sudan`s policy where President Bush has appointed a high-profile Special Envoy saying `the Sudan is important for us`, simply because the religious right in the US, a key Bush political constituency, wanted it so.

Rather than relying only on Pakistani-Americans whose influence, in any case, is limited vis-a-vis the much larger and more affluent Indian-Americans, Pakistan needs to broaden the base of its support in the US to include the broader segments of American society like the six million plus Muslims, the African Americans, even Church groups concerned about India`s treatment of Christians or Sikhs and low-caste Hindus, since caste discrimination was an issue even at the recent Durban Conference on Racism and Racial Discrimination.

Rather than the traditional ad hoc moment-to-moment, reactive approach of our policymakers towards any problem, it is time that Pakistan`s declining international image got the high priority it deserves.

Is the game afoot? Is this, the New York trip, the last tango of the General? Questions are being asked by the people. Bha-rat-vashi YLH and Hobbyty and others, your thoughts. I say that this is all a serious message to the General, to stop at a sober Tango and not to indulge in the real passionate tango or lambada with the Indians.



General in peril?

The Pioneer Edit Desk



With General Pervez Musharraf fast getting entangled in the jihadi web of his own making, Pakistan`s internal problems could have serious repercussions for India. His recent outbursts against intelligence agencies for not keeping him fully informed of the activities of terrorist and sectarian organisations, suggest desperation on his part to retain his position on the fast-changing military-political scenario in Pakistan.

As far as his India policy is concerned, the General has been too clever for his own good. He botched a lifetime opportunity to rewrite history at Agra by putting his foot in the mouth on more than one occasion. His fulminations on Kashmir have only added to the bitterness between India and Pakistan. His attitude has been that of a bully trying to score a point under the garb of being decisive. He was, in fact, acting out his role as dictated by terrorist and sectarian outfits, propped up by none else but his own army and intelligence agencies. As things stand today, General Musharraf`s Pakistan is a failed State with its economy in a shambles and sectarian violence at its peak; moreover, it is faced with global isolation on account of its overt support to Islamic terrorism. He has contributed his share to the mess by encouraging terrorism of all sorts, both internal and external. His tacit support for organisations like Sipah Sahaba, a rabid anti-Shia group, has fanned sectarian violence in many parts of Pakistan, especially in Shia-dominated areas like Karachi. Many professionals have fallen victims to Sipah`s ethnic cleansing. The total number of casualties from sectarian violence in Karachi alone in the past two years is more than 450, mostly Shias.

Although General Musharraf did announce a crackdown on sectarian outfits in his Independence Day speech, and did take some action, he was soon forced to retreat. In fact, instead of banning such organisations, he was forced to release Sipah`s powerful chief Maulana Azam Tariq who was jailed last year for threatening to overthrow none else than the General himself. The reason why General Musharraf kowtows to organisations like Sipah and another notorious Sunni outfit, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, is their close links with terrorist groups like Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad, both of which operate only in Kashmir. A little too late in the day, the General has realised that he cannot be seen, at least publicly, as supporting terrorism if he has to secure economic and diplomatic support from the West.

A weak Musharraf could mean a change of guard in Islamabad, and that would herald another military dictator, this time with a fanatical streak. One such candidate is Lt General Mohammad Aziz, who was General Musharraf`s Chief of Staff when the latter was only Chief of Army Staff. In fact it was Lt Gen Aziz, a fanatic to the core, who masterminded the coup that put his boss in power. Lt General Aziz is a far more serious threat to India than President Musharraf.