Breaking News: September 11, 2001

Akalay meiN voh ghabraatay tO hoangay

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Subject: Fwd: Muslim Peace Rally
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001

MUSLIM PEACE RALLY
The Muslim Community in New York expresses deep
shock and outrage at the reprehensible attack on the WTC and the Pentagon. We condemn this horrible
attack and join our fellow Americans in this hour
of grief. Please join us for prayer and reflection at a Peace Rally

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 2001
MADISON SQUARE PARK
23rd Street/Fifth Avenue
From 5:30 - 7:00 p.m

Directions: Take N/R to 23rd Street/Fifth Ave.
Sponsored by:
-American Sufi Muslim Association
-Islamic Center of Long Island
-Al-Rahman Foundation, Inc. and Al-Rahman Masjid
-Arab American Family Support Center, Brooklyn
-CAIR - NY
-Muslim Charity Networks (www.muslimcharity.org)
-SAKHI for South Asian Women
-VIRSA Pakistan
-Women for Afghan Women

``BUT I FOUND YOU MOST BUBBLY PERKED UP AFTER 4 DAYS OF NON WORK?``

I couldnt clearly understand what you meant here - but going by the past - I am amazed at your ability to see the nonexistant-worst in someones post. How ever did you come to this conclusion - taht I am all perked up and was looking for some gain out of this tragedy. Disgraceful!! I dont think you realise taht there is technology in place taht allows us to work from home come rain/shine/mood swings/terrorists etc etc.

aicha

Re: fight against terrorism

Guys,

The double speak by Pakistani diplomats is all too evident. I am watching Newsnight by BBC. Pak`s ambassador to UN (Shamshad Ahmad,i think)denied Pak delivered any ultimatum to Mullah Omar, while whole of US press has been talking about the ultimatum. He is making it out to be an international effort which is fine. One Farooq Alam (a Taliban spokesperson)said if Afghanistan is attacked, it will be catastrophic for Pak. This program by BBC also highlighted the horrendous problems in the form of backlash especially from Pakhtoons of NWFP that Pak may face if Afghanistan is attacked. Tough times for Pakistan.

Sridhar

Aamir - well work is the only thing tath keeps you going during times like these. I still

have reservations about taveez and such things but that can keep for other times.

Truth - how are you holding up? I read your post and hope you are keeping safe&well.

Stuka:

“Semipreciousme #551

I`m sure that you too would have very different feelings for those bearded Afghans in Kandahar if you were roaming around the streets of lower Manhattan holding up pictures of loved ones. “

...so let me get this straight…to avenge the death of innocent civilians, you want more innocent civilians to be killed?



Sridhar:

“Re:Reply #: 543

semipreciousme,

Thanks for the info. A fascinating character. But an evil incarnate nevertheless . A self-deluded person who believes what he is doing has God`s sanction.

Sridhar”

...agreed…..i’ve heard a lot of people say that bin laden is just a convenient target or that more proof of his involvement should be supplied before going into afghanistan...well, imo, the sooner we get rid of him, the better…the guy has a proven track record…he’s publicly said that he doesn’t care whether american military personnel or civilians are killed because, to his twisted mind, innocent civilians are just as much to blame...he’s brainwashing children/youth in his many a training camps...something needs to be done with him…. if he’s so infuriated with the americans, why doesn’t he do us all a favor and get his a$$ in gear and go and fight his so-called jihad...agreed, the whole problem wouldn’t be solved just by getting rid of him….but that’s one less piece of warped lunacy...

sherdil #583
`` P.S. Sadna asked about the Urdu newspapers in Pakistan: I will write what I find as well as what the ordinary person feels.``

Thanks, please do write if not on this board then on another.

RSaxena :

You deny the very principle of humanity that lead to the democracy in your ``great`` country.

``All men are created equal``

The very idea of democracy is to treat every one equal, but over the years the US has not treated any other nation equal. Whenever it had a purpose it intervened (i.e. vs. iraq), but whenver it has no purpose it ignores the troubles. Your nations founding fathers left you the principle of democracy and look what you do with it, completely disrespect it. You do not appreciate the blessing you have, instead you become self centered. The greater good of humanity is lost by your selfish needs.

The whole purpose of humanity is to contradict the laws of evolution; to build a society that is free and just for all. Otherwise Hitler may as well be right in his social darwinism. Then you as a American desi having brown skin should not be allowed to exist, cuse you are not superior.

This is a time for introsepection; look within your self and seek the truth of humanity.

Stuka :

It maybe the extremist organizations` fault for this entire tragedy, but in the end if innocent people do get killed,it is going to be the US`s fault. There are ways of eliminating this situation without much loss of life, but the US is too arrogant to take any other approaches, and it figures since its based on that philosophy.

There are always two ways of doing things; One way is to completely obliterate your enemy with full force hence affecting thousands of innocents. The other is to introspect, change policy so this does not occur in the future, and eliminate only those who are directly responsible for it.

They dont want to take responsibility, any responsibility and admit to the flaws in the foriegn policy. Fine that is all cool, you can always take that approach, crush the enemy. But you will have to eliminate the entire muslim ummah eventually, because the deaths of the innocents in afghanistan are not going to go un answered. The moderate people now will turn to extremists. Two wrongs dont make a right as the saying goes.

Again I appeal to you and people who are taking your stance, try to see the consequences, dont be as ignorant as osama and his cronies. Introspect, and solve this dilemma forever.

Shankar,

Once again a great analysis Shankar... Thankyou.

Pakistan apparently has made a deal... and has arrived at the consensus of religious leaders... according to CNN the religious leaders have declared that they stand behind their leader ...

-YLH

sherdil, Romair, ylh etc etc

I am going by the opinions relayed to us by most moderate Pakistanis on Chowk; over the years.

(Romair; please dont ask me to show you proof of who said what & when---its my collective percertion--if I`m wrong; just say so, I`ll take your word for it:)

I dont have the time or patience to research Chowk archives and prove ``see thats where you or someone else said this or that!``):-

1) In the final analysis; foreign policy of EVERY country (including Pakistan-not just the US) is based upon ``interests``, not ideology. It may not be the ideal way to formulate foreign policy because a lot of hypocracy is involved; but the world is far from ideal.

NOW IS THE TIME TO TELL THE US TO ``IF YOU SCRATCH MY BACK: I``LL SCRATCH YOURS!``

2)The ``fundos`` are the biggest threat to Pakistan. Their ideology is an antithesis of Jinnah`s dream of Pakistan. They have tarnished Pakistan`s image in the rest of the world. They have scared away potential investors to Pakistan.

3) They are a greater threat to Pakistan than to India. They may score a few ``kills`` among the Indian army; but contrary to the belief many Pakistanis have, they are NOT diminishing India`s resolve to loosen her grip on Kashmir. In fact, it is hardening the grip. Indians ,like any other humans, consider their acts as ``terrorist acts`` & become more hardened in their stance.

Pakistan may howl about it, but NOBODY is listening! There was NO PEEP from the rest of the world when Advani announced further measures & powers to the Indian army--no matter how antithecal to civil liberties. Thump AI on your chest all you want--AI doesnt think Pakistan is the bastion of human rights either.

Bottom line: FUNDOS ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE FREEDOM TO KASHMIR-PERIOD!! (#3 is my conclusion; not the opinion of moderate Pakistanis)

4) The Pakistani Military is one of the most disciplined fighting forces in the world. In Pakistan`s history, when the COAS makes a decision & gives an order; ALL the Corps commanders (including the ones who have disagreed in the debate) say ``Yes Sir`` & do their damndest to obey that order.

5) The ADVANTAGE of military rule is that the COAS/CE/ President does not have to be THAT considerate of public opinion. If a segment of the population rises; it can be silenced. If the militant madrassahs rise, they can & should be arrested/executed or silenced.

If the military cant maintain law & order in the country; then what the HELL GOOD IS A MILITARY?!!. If you cant tackle the militants in your own country then how the heck can you fight the Indian military?! Surely, silencing the fundos once & for all for these ``world famous`` men in uniform is easier than defending the country from marauding Indian banias!

6)Not to mention; when Mushy is doing that; the West is going to applaud him thunderously! Heck, they will make him the point man against militant Islam--the segment of people that even the VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS hate! THE KEMAL ATTATURK OF THE 21ST CENTURY!!

You claim the vast majority of Pakistanis are moderate; that they have never elected a fundamentalist party; that the only reason the fundos are heard is because they have ``street power``. Now is the time to see if those claims are true or not!

7) CIVIL WAR? What the heck kind of civil war are you going to have when 95%+ of Pakistanis are on one side & 5%- Pakistanis are on the other. Not to mention the world famous, disciplined, military is on the side of the 95%+!

8) The US IS GOING TO USE YOU AGAIN? Thats were diplomacy comes in! The US is already grateful for small favors Pakistan is making! MAKE A DEAL DAMNIT!

A) Let the US send Amercian boys to fight the Afghans; NOT Pakistani jawans. The latter are used to quell domestic fundo uprising--Pakistan just gives America ``moral, military logistical & `` support! PAKISTAN IS VERY GOOD AT THAT!



B)Have them guarantee that they will cover the cost of taking care of refugees. Tell them to put THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS!

C)Lift ALL economic & military sanctions against Pakistan.

D)Make the US & NATO countries use their ``good offices`` to forgive Pakistani external debt & approve new IMF loans.

E)Get a resolution passed in the Security Council & US Congress to force India to accept ``third party mediation`` for the Kashmir problem.

F) All the Western news agencies are making a beeline to Pakistan. Use your diplomats to remind Americans NOT to leave Pakistan holding the bag; like they did the last time. American public is GLUED to CNN. Now is the time to make your case!

A new World Coalition is being put into place by Bush. Pakistan is one of the KEY countries! This is Pakistan`s GOLDEN opportunity to rid itself of fundamentalism--ONCE & For ALL. You have the backing of the REST OF THE WORLD TO DO IT! These are opportunities that come very rarely-- a true gift from GOD Himself. If Pakistan screws this opportunity, IT DESERVES TO BE CONSIGNED TO THE DUST BIN OF HISTORY!

{{One last thing--I`m just an armchair contributer--maybe my conclusions are a lot of crap. Even so; it would be fun to see some of smug Indians on Chowk sweat it out as they ponder this!:)}}

As I arrived in Karachi, and then to the northern areas, Pakistanis seem to have a curious blend of hope and cynicism. Gone is the past belief in the Americans. Everyone seems to know that America is out to use Pakistan again. There is more of a business-like approach now, which is a hopeful sign. We know and seemed to have learned from bitter experience. The hope of course comes from the belief in President Musharraf. What a incredible position for him to be in! But for him to deliver, the Americans must be politically calculative as opposed to the emotionally charged atmosphere of the past week. Only by doing this can some additional scenarios be included, such as: Pakistan`s own internal terrorists. And what if it is not Bin Laden?

Some thoughts that occured as I travelled: The hijackings required preparations and resources of the kind that include a sustained involvement of a state. While some of these are within the capabilities of Osama Bin Laden, the nature of the support required points to a state being involved. Which state would be so inclined? Very clearly, that state`s leader is someone that simply did not care about reprisals, in fact would welcome them because they would give it a chance to play the victim. A state whose leader did not care about its people, because again obviously, it is the ordinary people who will bear the brunt of the reprisal. A state whose leader has no compunction about the nature of the terrorist act. And most importantly, that leader had to have a personal vendetta against America -AS WELL AS the President of the US. Otherwise why was there a real threat against President Bush? What if Laden was being played by someone else? What if it is Saddam? Saddam fits the bill in every respect. He has the state resources, he has the connections and above all he has a powerful motivation: he is craving revenge for the Gulf war - and it just so happens to be George Bush Sr`s son as President. As far as reprisals go, he is in control of a country whose citizens he himself has executed, unlike Bin Laden, and has been able to play the victim when attacked. He has been able to elude the US and been able to garner support for the Iraqi people at the same time.

The Taliban, condemned as they are for what they are doing to their own people, are easy moral targets. What if it is Saddam all along? In the eagerness to find the perpetrators, I wonder if what is being done is just a settlement of a score for the earlier embassy bombings, and not a clear, deliberate look at the intelligence.

How could the US intelligence not see this coming or at the very least have an idea of SOME operation in the making? The CIA has an entire facility whose sole purpose is the monitoring and pursuit of Bin Laden. When you monitor this closely, I guarantee you SOMETHING is uncovered. If you can come up with cellphone conversations, you surely can come up with messages that led up to the disaster - they have entire teams monitoring him for months. I don`t believe this ``lapse of intelligence`` for one moment. Why did they not do something? I won`t say what I believe, because I find the possibility of it too sick. If you can extrapolate, it is a rather obvious answer.

One thing for sure, they did miscalculate, and miscalculate badly. With the war presently being undertaken, Pakistan will support the US, as they definitely should. We also need to remember that Pakistan`s interests are merely a convenience for the Americans, as they were during the Afghan war.

We have one path to take here: That is to keep in focus Pakistan`s interests as well as the ordinary Afghanis (I am differentiating here between them and extremists within the Taliban). I have met people from the world over, but remain deeply, deeply impressed and moved by the generous, open hearts of the Afghans. I do not know if the Americans will differentiate those Taliban from the ordinary Afghan - but we Pakistanis need to.

P.S. Sadna asked about the Urdu newspapers in Pakistan: I will write what I find as well as what the ordinary person feels.

Re:Reply #: 574

bharatvaasi

I believe Musharraf has a lot of influence with Taliban. Some Pakistanis on chowk have been saying otherwise. If he does have a hold, he may be able to pull this off and dismantle the Taliban apparatus. For this he has to give up his dream of having strategic depth in Afghanistan and continuing with jehad in India. Both will be painful for him but he has to make this choice. If,on the other hand, he has no control over Taliban, may God be with Pakistan. The kind of unrest and violence that can potentially be unleashed by Taliban in Pak can only be imagined.

Sridhar

sadna,

according to farangi_kush, the TOTAL circulation of all english-language newspapers, magazines, etc is no more than 15000 in pakistan.

how about it tahmad?

tahmed321 #565
`` Scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for ways to shut out the reality of the events taking place, are we? ``

tahmed321, you are truly amazing. In what way is asking for information about what Urdu newspapers say, `scraping the barrel to shut out reality of events`. Which barrel and which events am I trying to shut out reality of? You donot seem to realize there is a nonEnglish-speaking world out there. Aren`t you even slightly interested in what is the reaction of ordinary Pakistanis ? I am, thats why I asked. My mistake, all I have is two posts berating me. It must have been a more loaded question than I knew.