The INS Officer

Romair: How do you define citizenship? Through a passport. How many foriegners lining in Pakistan have managed to acquire Pakistani passports?

#70 by adnan_rafiq on February 3, 2003 2:12pm PT
Let me give you a perspective of who is college going age or not. My mother who was close to being qualified for retirement recently immigrated to Canada. Being a teacher back home was not too much of a comfort when she landed in a foreign land.

But the facilities available for pursing a Canadian qualification enabled her to get a job in a field of her choice. Now I am not saying that she is making the amount of money that would enable her to live independently. But what I am trying to say that where there is a will there is a way.

Each immigrant pays just $1475 for processing, if you have paid additional dollars to consultants that was your choice not the government`s recommendation. In exchange for these, the government of Canada provides all opportunities for you to assimilate into the society (see Student`s Loans). Tomorrow you might ask the Canadian Government that since you have immigrated on a business visa then they should assure you of a profitable business. I mean lets face it, if you are not cut out to live in a competitive world then you should just not leave your comfortable world. The website clearly states that you apply at your own risk.

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I fail to understand the logic of individuals who can support any process that contains different rules for different people, isolated by relgion or ethnicity. Whether the rules are applied politely or not doesn`t make any difference. Any law in any country that differentiates between people in the same status (legal or illegal), on the basis of ethnicity or religion is wrong and unfair.

That doesn`t mean one should break the law, or violently protest it. But one should at least accept the unfairness of the law. Registration is fine, as long as it is applied to everyone (if it will be in the future, then the US will be well-advised to anounce that right now). What logic is there to check and interview every Canadian citizen who was born in Iran, Iraq, or Sudan and not check others?

One can disagree with this whole concept in principle, and state a society has every right to make its laws anyway it wants. But then that principle should be applied across the board. In that case, why complain about the laws in Pakistan? Why is it wrong to have a Blasphemy law, which is designed to be applied to all religions (knowing fully well, it is nearly always applied to Christians)? Why complain about requiring everyone to state they are or aren`t an Ahmedi on their passport application? Why complain about the Arab countries paying South Asians less money than Westerners, for doing exactly identical jobs?

Technically speaking, keeping the WTC tragedy as context, the real threat to the USA is from Saudi Arabia, since 75% of the hijackers were Saudi. Yet Saudi Arabia wasn`t even on any list originally.

The only Pakistani who has killed an American I know of, is Aimal Kansi, and he was caught and handed over to the USA. I doubt the jail population of the USA has a very high number of Pakistanis - not nearly as high as the number of illegal (or legal) Hispanics or African Americans. Are there any Pakistani students committing crimes? So why should Pakistani illegals (or legals) be treated differently from normal illegals (or legals.)

If security from, ``Islamic extremism`` is the most important thing, then the easiest way to keep an eye on this situation, is to issue identification cards to all Muslims in the USA (citizens and non-citizens). And give the police random authority to check these cards. That will make everything far more secure. Simply asking people to register is not going to solve any problem. Why would an illegal Arab, who is in the country to commit terrorism, decide to register with anyone? Many other illegals will not register, due to fear of deportation. US citizens who are Muslim or Arab will not be asked to register either. What if one these citizens is a terrorist?

This idea has been floated around. And about 50% of the Americans agreed that US Arab citizens should carry special ID cards. Why not extend this to all Muslims US citizens? This would violate their Constitutional rights, but it would make the USA more secure against Islamic extremism. Statistically speaking, if African-Americans and Hispanics were forced to carry such cards, which could be randomly checked, it would make the USA even more secure.

Where does one draw the line? And if one does draw a line, then one should apply those rules to everyone and to every country. If security is the real issue and treating people differently due to religion or ethnicity is not an issue, then they should support the ideas of all US Muslims carrying special identification. As long as it is done politely, it shouldn`t be an issue.

To me, if someone is in any country, they need to be treated individually, and not in a blanket manner. If you want to lock up all your illegals, then lock them all up - not just some ethnicities. If you want to register all your legals, then make them all register. And if you want to give ID cards to your citizens, give the same one to all of them - not just any one group. This may let the odd terrorist get through the system, but it will uphold the system of innocent until proven guilty.

As for the threat to the USA, my guess would be that far more poeple in the USA are killed annually, due to Italian family-based mafias, Russian family based undergrounds, Black gang violence, the red-neck militias a-la Oklahoma city than by Muslims (legal or otherwise). Just go to any jail and check out the ratios. They will be filled with people like this, and not with Pakistanis. Shouldn`t there be special registration procedures for all Black and Italians also?

In my opinion, one should not protest violently against such rules, but one should not accept them as, ``fair`` either. One should peacefully raise one`s voice against them. The countries and peoples that have clout (not to mention, self-respect) have always done so.

asaleh: Not everyone going to Canada is an IT professional or in college going age. My point is that when an immigrant pays thousands of dollars for the application process and brings another bucket full of dollars with him, then its not a privilege anymore. They pay a high price for the immigration, and thus, it is their right to ask the government to have a job placement program specifically designed for the newcomers.

tahmed: Are you saying that a 40 year old engineer should learn about the ``dignity`` of labor by working in factories in Canada? Well, this is exactly what most of them are doing. The ``dignity`` of labor is a romantic concept when you`re in your twenties, but when you`re middle-aged its not something you want to learn. This is true for Canadians, Americans and Pakistanis alike.

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#61 by adnan_rafiq on February 2, 2003 10:06am PT

Just one other thing, the Government of Canada encourages education by providing Canada Student`s Loans and if you have been in Ontario for a year before you start University, there is Ontario Student Assistance Plan that provides you with enough money to study full time without worrying about meeting day to day expenses. At the same time there are a number of programs that costs just $3500 per year cheaper than a number of private institutions in Pakistan.

#57 by arjun_m on February 1, 2003 1:27pm PT

Having first hand experience in Canada I can say that if you have relevent experience in IT you will not be unemployed for long. I don`t know any one with significant IT experience to be unemployed in Canada. I may not be able to say for mechanical, electrical or other engineers, doctors, MBAs. But then can you say that people with degrees from Ethopia would be welcome to our pak soil with open arms. When doctors have been known to take exams for jobs in America why should the engineers or MBAs, or CAs be any different.

#58 by Romair on February 1, 2003 2:18pm PT
I am not sure the methodology used to adjust the cost of living, I have generally used the Wall Street Journals `` International Salary Calculator`` and I have found that going to US can only bring down your quality of life. Although this too is dependent on the province one moves from and the state one moves to, but on the average I found that the tax levels are similar. Mind you because of the mortgage break the housing costs itself are between 200% to 800% more expensive than for similar property in Canada. And the taxpayer get this as his only significant tax break. On the other hand, the Canadian taxpayer gets to put aside $18,500 per year as tax deductible savings into RRSP, which may be used to by a home. There are other incentives also like the Ontario Home Ownership Savings Plan in which the government contributes 25% of what you contribute. The Federal and Provincial taxes would be at par with the Federal and State taxes (and in some cases the City Taxes also).

#61 by adnan_rafiq on February 2, 2003 10:06am PT
I would suggest to a prospective immigrant not to approach settling in Canada as a matter of right but a privilage. And to make use of the facilities the government offers. I would suggest that the prospective immigrant after spending a few months trying to find a job, develop a fall back plan of spending sometime as a full time student in a University. It is interesting that people say that the place you want to work is the place you should study. Local Universities have home ground advantage. This is because over the years the alumni of the universities have moved to positions of authorities and they tend to encourge those from the same institutions. It is a wonder that the resumes that do not ellicit a response before admissions will get accolades once the summer internship programs start. And these quickly roll into full time positions.

http://www.homefair.com/homefair/cmr/salcalc.html?NETSCAPE_LIVEWIRE.src=wsj

hawkeye #63 Your post was a sight for eyes that have grown sore reading unthinking accusations directed at the US. I agree 100 percent with everything you say.
rozaiba #64 Please reflect upon your use of the term ``prejudiced policies`` and ``persecution`` when describing US policies. There is no question that the current security threat to the US is posed by islamic extremists. This is reality. In the past when the security threats were different (white supremacists, italian mafia, nazi infiltration, urban crime in NYC, and of course communism), the US went after them with equal energy and fixed the problem once and for all no matter how long it took. One can only hope that some day the Pakistan ``elite`` will learn something about the importance of law and order from the US, and not pass off every bomb blast in Karachi as the doings of ``Raw`` without making any attempt to find the culprits; and it wont allow the kidnappings and carjackings conducted by thugs from the tribal areas without lifting a finger.

#63 by hawkeye on February 2, 2003 9:10pm PT

Let me put your question into perspective. You say that what would we have done to people who did something like Sept 11 in our own country. Well you have to back into history. Mankind has been doing this for years. There was a time when America was back waters and then they blew up Japan. Any regrets then. Were the Japanese fingerprinting the Americans. If we go before that the Bengal weavers lost their thumbs to the English so that machinery may be introduced in India. Hey radicals change the face of history the question is how do we react.

hawkeye:

yes, we`d have done far worse. and for all our criticizing the west for it`s atrocities- and rightly so- we forget those we commit. if we had the power the west had, pakistan would fuk anyone it could lay it`s hands on. a good example is how it manipulated the afghanistan situation. khair, be that as it may, it doens`t mean we stop criticizing the policies of this country.

i know i`d be treated ten times worse in saudi arabia or dubai.

but still, it`s sad to see america go that route. you know that majority of the pakistanis here on F1 visas are working illegally- delivering pizzas, working at stalls in malls, etc. their parents supply them with a semester`s expenses - the rest they gotta make on their own without being able to get the colleges to support their work permit applications. INS can easily round them up and throw them out.

more importnatly, considering the exercise is tilted against muslims, these `prejudiced` policies, like all prejudiced policies, will continue to gather momentum and take on bigger roles in persecuting the innocent minority.

I too went for my registration. Very firendly people. Was done in less then two hours. Is it fair? No, if we are in the USA we live by their rules. And to be honest I cannot imagine what we would have done to the peopl who did something like Sept 11 in our own country. I respect the tolerance the USA still shows. Lets now set good mature examples and educate our selves and live by the rules of the country where we are. The only reason you can question why to the registration process is because the USA allows this, please stop this stupid rhetoric and try to understand. Is it futile , maybe yes, but lets leave it to the american govt to find out themselves after spending considerbale time and effort, they do not need our input, so save ur energy people! peace to the world

adnan_rafiq #61 I did not realize things were so bad in Canada, job-wise. I know a couple of people who had to spend a few months looking for jobs, but ultimately they did get fairly decent jobs. So maybe all hope is not lost for ``out-of-status`` Pakistanis trying to move from the US to Canada. Cant be worse than Mexico. Or Pakistan, for that matter.
And maybe if the ``highly educated immigrants`` you mention started their own businesses (as opposed to looking slavishly for jobs and then whining about discrimination when they cant find one), they might actually become real success stories. They would have to stop acting like ``sahabs`` and learn the dignity of honest labor first though.

Romair: The Canadian immigration scheme is a scam! They have no jobs at all. They paint a rosy picture of their country which is far from the truth. Each immigrant spends thousands of dollars (if the whole family is migrating it could be into tens of thousands), once they`ve landed they find out that there are no jobs. So in a few months they lose their nest egg and become penniless. The country is full of highly educated, highly qualified immigrants doing blue collar menial jobs at factories and shops. Discrimination in the work place is rampant. They don`t give a rats ass about your education and experience if its not from Canada. Once you land, the federal government is nowhere to be seen, you`re on your own. After you have spent all your lifesavings and suffered enough humiliation, you reach the inevitable conclusion that there`s no way out but to go on welfare. Next, the Canadians start harping about all them lazy immigrants who are robbing them of their tax dollars by sitting on their asses and getting welfare. Its a catch-22 situation.

Canada is not interested in you but your $$$$! Each immigrant spends thousands on applications and bring a lot more with them. The Canadian economy happily gobbles up all that. That is the simple truth. People are beginning to realize this, and thats why their immigration quota for 2002 is almost 65,000 short. Previously, most people escaped to the US, but given the current situation you`ll see a steep decline in migration to Canada.

Ras:

You`re on!

Rozaiba,
Next time, better food in the Bay Area?

Ras