My Two Pence on the W-word

Samina: Watch Tom Freidman`s documentary (balanced???) on Discovery chanel tomorrow at 10 PM EST.

have you been reading english.aljazeera.com, voteforimpeach.com or listening to Pacifica Radio of Amy Goodwin? Samina, best way to educate oneself is to kearn from both side and make intellectual decisions even if it means wrestling with deeper convictions. You and I share many intellectual and humanistic opinions and hopefully those will be more important than current crisis.

President impeach will not come. However, if war goes badly Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld will be axed just as O`Neal was axed from treasurary for poor economy as if Snow will release of genie to turn things around.

Sruka: KiddaN Badshaho??? What happened to dost-mittar???

SameerJB:

``Last thing but very important here to note is that if war does not go very well for US, rest of the world would remain safe from the coaterie of neo-conservatives and pre-emptive strikes for longtime to come. ``

HAHAHA!! Well said and very true.

``Neo-conservatives will not succeed because it is becoming clear that Iraqi public, Shia and Sunnis in particular are not enthusiastic as it was hoped. Thus far Shias are not cheering advancing US troops. The only group enthusiastic now is Kurds who make up only 10-12 percent of the population because they see it as thier only chance to gain either independence or autonomy. If Shias and Sunnis are not happy, and many very angry, 200,000 US troops are too little to passify all of Iraq. ``

So it seems at present. I am also surprised by this. I genuinely think/thought that the Iraqis would welcome American troops as liberators.

I do disagree with you in terms of foreign polcy as principle. International relations are governed with states being the principle as actors, not public opinion which is easily swayed. To me, that is the holy grail of international relations.

dharma #63
``why do we need madrasas to teach Qaran?``
I think people have a right to practice their religion as they please, AS LONG AS they are not causing anyone else trouble. I am sure you are thinking of madrassas as breeding grounds for islamic extremists, and to that extent I share your opposition. But remember that many madrassas do not preach jihad, and those madrasses are OK. Indeed, I dont even believe in reading the Quran without understanding, which is the traditional way it has been done in madrassas - but if someone wants to do that, that is business.

`` Why do we need separate laws for muslims, separate countries for muslims? ``
I dont think we should have separate laws for muslims, and I think the Indian government took a wrong turn in doing that. I also oppose shariah courts in Pakistan since they in fact weaken the cause of justice and are thus counter to the spirit of Islam.
I dont believe in the two nation theory. That was an argument used to create Pakistan. HOWEVER, Pakistan is here to stay. I dont see any compelling reason to form a confederation or anything of the sort with India, particularly given the bitterness that has developed over the past 50 years. It will I think take a generation or so for such bitternesses to dissipate, and three or four generations for both countries to reach the stage of sophistication where you can relax the borders as is being done in Europe. I hope to live to see the day, but I dont think it is happening anytime in the next 10 years if not more.

``if everyone is equal, why do we need the tag called muslim? ``
I agree that we should see people as individuals first and last, and not tag them by their beliefs (muslim, hindu) etc. But such tagging is in fact practiced by many people, and in fact my experience on chowk tells me that indians tend to tag people far more than pakistanis. I know this sounds like another india-pakistan one-upmanship in the holier-than-thou tournament. But this asymmetrical behavior seems quite obvious to me after having spent so much time conducting my social studies on chowk. :-)

saminasha #61 Bush rules! :-)
PS Watch the people of Basra boot out Saddams thugs today, and explain to them why this war is wrong and why they should be content with their lot.

septran #60 you write ``basic message given by all messengers is love ,peace and truth.``
i think you got it. You say you are a bit confused, but you dont sound confused at all to me.

tahmed#53, #57
thanks for sharing your viewpoints without malice.
So if you believe following Qaran to the letter is
not necessary as long as you follow it in the spirit,
that is be a good human being who believes in a creator,
why do we need madrasas to teach Qaran? Why do we need
separate laws for muslims, separate countries for muslims?
if everyone is equal, why do we need the tag called muslim?
And if taliban is not respecting the rights of other religions, people, arent
they violating the spirit of Qaran and thus can be branded kaafirs?
Then if some god fearing good christians wage a war against such bigots
can it be termed Jihad? Or is Jihad only the right of chosen people?

septran,

I haven`t read the books you speak of so cannot comment on their content. As far as Islam is concerned, it`s a very simple religion. As a Muslim I believe that there is nothing worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is His Prophet. All religious knowledge, and subsequent habit and instinct, is based on the fundamental belief in the Oneness of God. He is One and there is nothing that can be likened to Him. Believing that, I believe in the unity of humanity; all people, both men and women, are equal before God.

Sameer,

The Bush Administration has a much humiliation coming to them in the days ahead.

We are booting these frauds out of office.

dharma,tahmed,ansari,
i just happen to read your view point about religion.i am also in confusion,so msny contratation.being muslim,of course i read QURAN.confusion persist.to know the truth i read many books.how to know god(chopra) conversation with god(neale walsch) muhammad(p.u.h) by karen armstrung.still i am living in confusion.only one thing become clear to my mind.basic message given by all messengers is love ,peace and truth.i haven``t read gita,i am sure message will be the same.this is we need at the moment.if any body can educate my poor soul?

rozaiba, Saminshah and Stuka:
Stuka, I am far from being a neo-conservative like Rumsfeld, Wolfowits, Cheney or Pearle. In general, I share same views as liberals, seculars and more democrat than republicane.

We need to analyze this subject more systematically. Instead of just exchanging opinions, we need to look at it from Bush, American, Humanistic, Moral, Islamic, Muslim and world perspectives. I do not care about Islamic and Muslim perspectives and leave it to others to ponder over it.

For Bush it is his reelection bid at stake in 2004. He is in a tough spot because last time around he barely won the election. None of the major democrat states like NY, CA, MI, IL are staying with the democrats. With Lieberman, Karry or Gephardt, some republican states in new england, Missouri and possibly West Virginia will slip to democrat. Bush`s only chance to make up is to have broad popularity, despite absolutely nothing at the home front to take credit for. The foreign policy and a possible victory against a weekened enemy with minimal loss will be his only asset going into next election. So he can not afford a great loss in the battle field or afterwards. He has to savor the victory and run for cover - bringing back most of the troops to avoid uncertainty of longterm occupation.

Enough is already discussed on humanitarian and moral grounds. There is not just any justification to go to such an expensive war with no evidence of WMD, terrorist links or Nuclear threat and, moreover, no UN support makes it almost illegal from international point of view.

There is no benefit for American public in it. Quiet contrary, the tax payers have to bear roughly 100 billion dollars cost and casualties.

Neo-conservatives will not succeed because it is becoming clear that Iraqi public, Shia and Sunnis in particular are not enthusiastic as it was hoped. Thus far Shias are not cheering advancing US troops. The only group enthusiastic now is Kurds who make up only 10-12 percent of the population because they see it as thier only chance to gain either independence or autonomy. If Shias and Sunnis are not happy, and many very angry, 200,000 US troops are too little to passify all of Iraq. We are used to see Israelis succeessful at every place but Palestine is very small area for 200,000 Israeli Army than Iraq. Practically it is impossible for US to hold on to Iraq if Iraqis do not want them. That is why, in addition to risks during reelection season for Bush, US military will quickly get out of cities and perhaps most of Iraq.

From Iraqi population perspective, the one most important for me when expressing my opinion on this topic. I always thought and still do that Iraqis would have been better off welcoming US troops - for prosperity, peace, basic human rights and democracy. All my posts on this topic have been written with welfare of Iraqi people my supreme concern. I saw and still see lifting of UN sanctions and peacefully progressing in the absence of Saddam Hussain and that requires presence of US troops. Saddam has to be removed because like any autocratic ruler he will not leave on his own. Even upon death, he would have made sure to transfer power to his son, like next door Syria, Jordan, Kuwait etc.

Last thing but very important here to note is that if war does not go very well for US, rest of the world would remain safe from the coaterie of neo-conservatives and pre-emptive strikes for longtime to come.

heavy civilian casualties and resentment already piling up:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/24/international/worldspecial/24CND-BATT.html?ex=1049173200&en=a2585c75f80dada0&ei=5043&partner=EXCITE

Ansari #55 you write ``Could you give me a reference?``
Sure. As follows:
1. In Surah Baqarah (which in many ways summarizes the Quran), it says that whether you are a christian or jew or sabian or any other religion, if you believe in God, in the Judgement Day, and do good deeds you have nothing to fear.
This is repeated later on in the Quran as well. The implications of this verse alone are profound, and fully consistent with the spirit of the Quran and fully inconsistent with the spirit of the muslim extremists.

2. Later on the Quran also says that God has (a) sent a prophet to every people, (b) the Quran also says that there is nothing in the Quran that has not already been told to Moses, and (c) that this is an Arabic Quran, sent to a people (i.e. the Arabs) who do not understand the languages in which the Quran has already been revealed.
(I dont have the exact Surah, but these are all from the Quran as one can easily determine by going through this not too voluminous book).

The implications of this are profound too. Elsewhere, the Quran specifically denounces the concept of a Chosen People, and stresses the equality of ALL mankind before God. Thus, you can be a hindu and go to heaven, per the Quran, and be a muslim and go to hell.

tahmed sahab,

``So, by all means read the gita (or vedas) and that is as good as reading the Quran, and that is what the Quran itself clearly says.``

I`m not sure I agree with that. Could you give me a reference?

sameerjb wrote:

``The concept of colonialism and freedom now is much different than what you seem to be implying. That old style currently practiced by Israelis in occupied territories is not practiced by US forces in Japan and Germany. In Iraq too, it will be not an occupation but stationing of US forces at selected sites in Iraq. US will try to install a pro-US temporary set up on Iraq like that in Afghanistan with representation from Kurds and Shias too. ``

I would like nothing more than for them to do that. The domino effect it can have is phenomenal. However, I think it will go against the very center of American policy for the region thus they will not shoot themselves in the foot. Plus I cannot accept the arguments of a country that uses violence and claims it is for NOBEL objectives.

Managing democracies is much harder than tin pot dictators. The oil that has brought American troops into this war, is also going to be the cause for their eventual scampering out. No matter how much the Iraqis hate Saddam, it`s hard to see the Iraqis embracing the American troops for more than a couple of lunar cycles.

Afghanistan has neither education nor wealth- their leader goes around begging for foreigners to not forget his country. Similarly, Japan and Germany were totally destroyed and needed American loans and defence AND market be able to PRODUCE and SELL their products.

A country with an EDUCATED population AWARE of the AUTOMATIC value of their wealth will never stand for a foreign power with half a million troops calling the shots.

THUS the only way American can continue to call the shots is to persist with the same old colonial tactics of DIVIDE AND RULE. The concepts of colonialism have not changed.

You seem to think that good will is going to be generated after Saddam is kicked out. Perhaps for a few days. After that, all my logic suggests is resentment.

dharma #53 Thanks for reading my posts, even though you dont seem to believe that I mean what I write. Trust me, dharma sahib, I am not running for the post of Chowk President and as such have no need to write what I dont mean.
you write also ``Why cant a hindu who reads gita, who also accepts that there is a God, be a muslim.``
I have written many times on chowk that according to the Quran, all individuals (regardless of anything, including religion) are equal before God. The important thing is that you do good deeds, believe in the Creator, and distinguish between right and wrong, and in that case (per the Quran) you can be of any religion and would have nothing to fear. So, as far as I am concerned (and I say this on the authority of the Quran) you are a muslim (or more accurately, to use the Quranic words, a believer) even if you consider yourself a hindu or christian or anything else. The Quran explicitly condemns the concept of a Chosen People. While many muslims currently think they are a Chosen People, this is because they ignore the Quran. So, by all means read the gita (or vedas) and that is as good as reading the Quran, and that is what the Quran itself clearly says.
Hope this makes you feel better. And if you still think I am merely saying this to come out as a good guy, rest assured that I wont ever come asking for a letter of recommendation from you. And appreciation (or insults) from strangers on chowk dont really make any difference to me. But I do like to air my two-cents worth on chowk.

ref #43 by dharma
I guess you dont thave any answers to my question.
tahmed32 i read a few of your interactions here
on chowk for the last month or so i been visiting this site.
Dont think discriminating on the basis of religion is
any superiror to discriminating on the basis of race.
In fact discriminating on the basis of race may have
a scientific bais becuase some races maybe superiror
on the evolutionary basis, but discriminating on the basis
of religion maynot have any basis. And peopel like
you feel, just because you are hiding behind a prejudiced,
discrimainating, irrational belief systems like religion
you are somehow above the other crooks like KKK and such.
But you are as much of a waste casue for the progress of humanity as any common criminal. I know you would say, ``when did i discriminate?. I treat
all religions with respect etc. drivel`` a But by accepting someone as your coreligionist
just based on his birth or subjective belief in a book you are already discriminating.
Why should those things matter? why cant have 6 billion religions based
on our individual beliefs? Why cant a hindu who reads gita, who also accepts that there is a God, be a muslim . you are just a hypocrite and prejudiced as any of the mullahs or the white supremacists. Realize
for what you are and dont put on airs.