Survival of the Fittest

#364 by tahmed32 on May 7, 2003 8:39am PT

virtue doesn`t end anywhere..i am sure it is everywhere..but tolerance is not everwhere at the same level
its just that it is a bit surprising(rather nice) to see such moderate veiws in a pakistani..especially the part abt reading hindu scriptures/books...

dost-mittar #363 And you get lost in the forest if you get into the details.
Religious books are not computer programs or legal documents where every single word can be a potential source of hell.
Religious books are like poetry, or a fine painting, or the Book of Life itself (the DNA), where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and where the over-all point being made is significant. Not any one specific line or verse.

m_souza #362 Why do you think all virtue ends at the border of India and Pakistan?

tahmed:
But the devil is in the details.:-)

tahmed..your way of thinking is like that of many of the moderate Indian muslims like our President Abdul kalam..who reads Geeta as well as Quran. .
Maybe you were born at the wrong side of the border....like Adnan Sami

dost mittar #359 ``Shirk`` (multiple gods) is indeed rejected in Islam in favor of a single Supreme Being. However: my understanding of the essence of hinduism is that it to recognizes a single Supreme Being, the Brahman.
Also, the most important lines in the Quran are in the Surah Baqarah (which in many ways summarizes the Quran), where in order to be in good standing with God the basic requirements are described as being (a) belief in a Supreme Being, (b) belief in the Judgement Day (meaning knowing the difference between right and wrong), and (c) doing good deeds. Everything else is details.
I have read parts of the Quran in urdu, but the one I read most carefully was Yusuf`s english translation which is generally accepted as being accurate. I would be interested in any further comments you may have on your reading of the Quran (on this tired old board, or some other one - maybe an article you may want to think of writing).
Anyway, glad you find time to read the Quran. I hope to find time to read the Vedas. I do have the Gita at home, but have not read more than the first chapter or so. The part I read did refer to the concept of a Supreme Deity who cannot be fully described (which is exactly the Islamic concept, and is indeed found in many other religions).

a nice role for a frontline state

May 6, 2003
In Pakistan Border Towns, Taliban Has a Resurgence
By CARLOTTA GALL

QUETTA, Pakistan, May 4 — It is like a scene from the old days of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Dozens of religious students, or talibs, and other Afghan exiles with thickly wound turbans and long beards gather on Thursday afternoons on two of the main squares in this city.

They are among the many Taliban who took refuge here in the border regions of Pakistan after their government collapsed in December 2001, and they are staying in the sprawling Afghan refugee settlements here or with fellow tribesmen in remote villages.

These days they are gathering openly, showing a growing confidence since an alliance of religious parties sympathetic to their movement won provincial elections here last fall.

On Thursdays they meet one another, and the talk is of war and the return of the Taliban to Afghanistan.

``We don`t like the Americans, and Karzai is a puppet of George W. Bush,`` said Abdul Karim, 26, a member of the Taliban movement until he left Afghanistan two years ago, referring to Hamid Karzai, the new leader of Afghanistan. ``We want an Islamic government in Afghanistan,`` added Mr. Karim, who is now a student at a madrasa, or religious school, in Quetta.

Nasrullah, a religious student here who recently arrived from Kandahar, in Afghanistan, said that ``if the situation continues and the Americans do not behave well, I am ready to fight, because jihad is the duty of every Muslim.``

He said he had left home two weeks ago, after the governor of his province ordered Taliban supporters to leave unless the elders of their village could vouch for their good behavior.

``It is too difficult studying in Afghanistan, because all the time people demand, `Who are you and what are you doing?` `` said Mullah Shahzada, a religious teacher and former fighter from the southern province of Helmand.

Quetta is a home away from home for the Taliban. CD`s of Taliban leaders` speeches are on sale in the shops, the Friday sermons in the mosques are openly supportive of those who consider themselves to be waging a holy war against Americans or other non-Muslims, and young men speak openly of their desire to go to Afghanistan to fight.

The Taliban presence is so strong that even many of those who have been refugees here for 20 years seem to believe that the Taliban will return to power in Afghanistan. ``There will be fighting until the Taliban get power again,`` said Nur Mohammad, an Afghan shopkeeper. ``God willing, they will force those infidels out of the country.``

The border regions of Pakistan, and Quetta in particular, are emerging as the main center of Taliban support in the region, and a breeding ground for opposition sentiment to the American campaign in Afghanistan and Mr. Karzai`s government. Senior Taliban officials and commanders are taking refuge here, too, Afghan and American officials say. Members of the political opposition in Pakistan confirm that Taliban leaders are active and are recruiting young men to fight.

Alarmed by the recent increase in attacks by rebels on American and government forces, Mr. Karzai asked Pakistan last week to hand over some senior Taliban officials and commanders who he said were in Pakistan. American military officials and diplomats have also pushed for more effort from Pakistan on the border to prevent infiltration of armed groups into Afghanistan.

Pakistani officials deny any knowledge that senior Taliban or Al Qaeda figures are in Pakistan, but have said they will investigate. ``We will do everything possible not to allow anything detrimental`` to the Afghan government ``being done from Pakistani soil,`` Pakistan`s foreign ministry spokesman, Aziz Ahmed Khan, said last week.

More than 400 Taliban and Al Qaeda suspects have been arrested in Pakistan since Sept. 11, 2001, more than in any other country after Afghanistan, a figure that hints at the extent of the presence of Afghan militants here. Nevertheless, none of the senior Taliban leaders have been apprehended, even though they have started calling friendly local journalists and giving interviews over their satellite telephones.

Those familiar with the situation contend that Pakistan`s army and secret service are allowing the Taliban to operate in Pakistan, and even protecting them. Further, the local government, now dominated by an alliance of religious parties sympathetic to the Taliban, provides them with legitimacy by association.

Maulavi Abdul Wasih talks like one of the Taliban. A burly, bearded man in a white turban, he was a candidate from a district on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, and is now a senior minister of Baluchistan province, in charge of planning and development.

There will be no peace as long as American forces remain in Afghanistan, he warned. ``America is a superpower, but it should not try to control third world countries,`` he said in an interview. ``The Americans interfered in Afghanistan and destroyed the government there; they should leave now.``

In his view, part of the problem is that the Americans have supported one group, namely the Karzai government, against the Taliban. Whether he or others in Pakistan helped them or not, he said, the Taliban would fight back. ``This is the rule here,`` he said. ``If someone`s home is attacked, he will defend it. Whether I support him or not, he will do that.``

He said he had no contact with former Taliban leaders and doubted they were living in Pakistan. He knew of their declaration of a holy war through news reports, he said.

Some Taliban may have had enough of fighting, however, Afghan leaders and some foreign officials suggest.

``There are different groups of Taliban,`` Mullah Habibullah Akhund, a former logistics commander in the Taliban defense ministry, said in an interview. ``Some are fighting, and some, like me, are waiting to see what the government will do. If they make an Islamic government in Afghanistan, then it will be O.K.``

Hajimal Zhrak, a former employee of Afghanistan`s agriculture ministry and one of the elders of the refugee population in Quetta, said, ``People support the Taliban but they do not support the attacks.``

His tribe, which has long provided a base of support for the anti-American rebel leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, met recently and decided to withdraw their support for him since it would drive away reconstruction projects from their districts.

A United Nations official said he had been approached by former Taliban who wanted to return to Afghanistan if they could be assured they would not be arrested. They would leave Pakistan because there they are under pressure to join the fight against Mr Karzai`s government.

Mr. Karzai has made a point in stressing that former Taliban are free to return home as long as they come in peace. But many of the regional commanders and governors, who came to power after ousting the Taliban, do not have the same sympathy, and warn that in their view, the Taliban have only one goal: to overthrow the government.

Pakistani opposition figures — who often accuse the country`s establishment, including the president, the army and the secret service, of supporting the resurgent Taliban — warned that the problem needs to be tackled at its source, that is, in these border areas, including Quetta. ``America is in for big trouble in Afghanistan unless you remove the source,`` warned one influential editor, who declined to give his name.

Habib Jalib Baloch, a former senator and leader of the Baloch National Party, said, ``America should have selected to crush Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan, rather than go to war in Iraq.`` He said he was sure that the Taliban leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, and his top commanders were all in Pakistan, protected by their links to the Pakistani establishment.

``You need to cut the funding,`` he said. ``You will not kill them with a hammer. You must cut the funding and the connection.``

tahmed:
I haven`t read the Vedas, either in original or in their various translations. Can`t even name all of the Vedas. But I know that they do involve invocation (worship) of various gods like Sun and Fire.
But I am more half-way through reading the Urdu translation of the Quraan and have already seen repeated references asking momins to reject anything which involves God having partners (sharkat). So, to repeat an overly used expression at Chowk, you are an intelligent and decent man but your claim to be a good momin will take some convincing.

dost mittar #357 I dont reject the Vedas. I just said that I have not read them the way I have read the Quran. Indeed, as a muslim it is my belief that the Quran is merely the Arabic version of the same message that has been sent earlier in other languages (the Quran itself says this). So, by no means do I reject the Vedas, and hope one day to read them.
I dont think it was a good idea to rename Lyallpur as Faisalabad. Lyall at least lived and worked there. King Faisal merely contributed money from his easy earnings from oil revenues. The renaming was merely Bhutto`s way (I am sure it was Bhutto) of flattering Faisal. Islamabad was chosen after a public announcement of a competition for names for the new capital by Ayub Khan`s government. The name Islamabad doe not bother me since at least it is not there to ingratiate a financier. However, I think it is demeaning of religion to drag it into public life as has been done in Pakistan. Religion should be an individual and personal thing, not something you play politics with. While religion was a convenient thing for the creation of pakistan, the fact is that Pakistan no longer needs the religious argument for its continued existence.
Like all countries, Pakistan is there because it has been there for long enough. There is no ``natural`` basis for ANY nation state. They have emerged through historical events, and the consensus is to maintain current boundries, which are eroding anyway due to economic and technological factors.
It is time we Pakistanis realized that we no longer need Islam to justify our existence, and separated religion from politics.

tahmed:
You misunderstood me. Vedas are religious scriptures and, as a muslim whether Indian or Pakistani, it is quite appropriate for you to reject them.
But we (at least I) are talking about culture and identities, not religion. I find Pakistanis naming their cities as Islamabad and Faislabad, but not Eienteinabad or Aristotleabad, let alone Poruspur or Chanakabad. It is quite clear what they want to identify with. And I dont even see too much wrong with it either (just calling a spade a spade!); what is the use of having a country in the name of a religious identity and then not promoting it?

bbabu #353 you write ``Indian nationalism does not exist the way French, German, Japanese does. It is little more than a composite culture like Slavs, Arabs.``
I have no problem with the concept of a shared culture and history, as part of the composite culture of the subcontinent. Indeed I think it is healthy for Pakistanis and Indians to have a sense of this shared culture, and I hope that once the intergovernment relations improve one day it will be easier for people to become aware of this broader culture that both India and Pakistan share.
This concept of a composite culture of the subcontinent is in fact quite complementary with the concept of the broader culture and human history that all mankind shares (the point I was arguing with dost mittar below). Thus, I can belong to the Panjabi culture, the Pakistani culture, the Indian subcontinent culture, and the worldwide culture all at the same time. It is not an either/or proposition. One can feel a sense of belonging to all of the above levels of culture.

dost mittar #354 I think bbabu (#354) is saying that he has heard some Pakistanis claim to be inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilization. So, if you dont believe me, if you reject Pakistan tourist websites as being geared to foreigners, I hope you will believe bbabu. :-)

In fact, what bbabu heard from Pakistanis is something I have heard often in Pakistan. Like all people, we identify with the location we have grown up in. So, it is only natural for Pakistanis to identify with the Indus Valley Civilization. Similarly, being a Panjabi, I am sure I had hindu ancestors. However, the fact is that having grown up as a muslim it is only natural for me to focus on the Quran and on muslim traditions then, for example, than on the Vedas which my distant ancestors may well have held as dear as my grandparents and parents held the Quran. This too is only natural, and I dont see anything wrong here. This brings me back to my original point: we should appreciate ALL cultures, and consider ourselves to be inheritors of the achievements of all mankind. It is only a matter of chance that we are born in Pakistan or India or wherever.

tahmed # 346

``India met Asia 55 million years ago, following its separation from the Gondwanaland land mass and drifting north. The first hominids evolved around 7 million years ago, and the first modern humans (cro-magnons) evolved a mere 30,000 years ago. Hope this clears up the confusion you seem to be having.``

okay everyone are invaders by your definition

You write ``This is inspite of the fact 95% of Muslims are of same genes of Hindu neighbors. `` I think it is time to forget about this preoccupation with ``Indian genes`` (every third Indian poster seems to be obsessed by it, and I suspect it has to do with Indian nationalism - it certainly has no basis in reality). ALL humanity shares the same basic genes. Differences exist. But differences EVEN between individual humans, to the extent they exist, are greater than differences between humans in any community - even dravidians do not all possess the same genes. The greatest diversity is in fact WITHIN africa.

when I mean Indian genes most of us can trace our ancestors to a common family in ancient India. Ancestry would be more appropriate word. Both Hindus and Muslims follow a lot of our ancestor customs.

Indian nationalism does not exist the way French, German, Japanese does. It is little more than a composite culture like Slavs, Arabs. Most Indians live under Indian Union banner. It is not true for Slavs, Arabs. It is a superposition of individual sub-nationalisms. It is encompassing by nature which can be perceived as threatening by Pakistanis. It has more practical and tangible meaning and imp[act than Islamic ummah. I have not meet enough Pakistanis to comment on the state of Pakistani nationalism.

You are right Pathans and Baluchis are more in common with Iranians and Afghans than rest of Pakistan. I should have excluded them from the discussion.

tahmed32 # 350

Pakistanis are in awkward position on this subject with good reason.
Personally I don`t care about this topic. But I notice with some amusement the explanation of Pakistani historians as to why Qasim, Ghori, Ghazni and Abdali invaded India. They find it hard to call a spade a spade. It is always some weird justification.

I have seen some Pakistanis emphaize themselves as inheritors of Indus Valley civilization. I doubt modern Pakistanis have anything in common with the civilization.

Pakistani can make a legitmate historical claim to the legacy Mughals and Sultanates of Delhi. Unfortunately the most of territorry, capital Delhi and most of the relics of their empire are in modern day India.

At least the Egyptians can claim they have the same name for the state like the Pharoahs did. Their modern capital Cairo is near ancient capital of Alexandria.

tahmed:
Tourism literature is for foreigners (mostly non-muslims) interested in exploring Pakistan and not for the locals. If I had a penny for Pakistanis who go to visit the ancient sites promoted by the Pakistan tourism deptt, I would be a very poor man, indeed! And if you started receiving pennies at the number of Pakistanis at Chowk and elsewhere who write with pride about their Islamic heritage, culture, civilization, etc., you would be a rich man, but not if you started counting their celebration of human achievement. We are talking here about identities, of course, i.e, what makes us, us. But we have gone around this muberry bush before, haven`t we?

Sherdil,

I will look forward to your flow of thoughts in form of an article on this ezine. I see where you are going with incorporating the current affairs, but I feel that should be Part II. Don`t put everything in one bucket. Let the mind contemplate on a lot that you wrote in a very sweet and simple fashion.

Part II can follow later.

Regards.