Punjabi Heroes that History Forgot

Dear Nazar,
Very good artical about Punjabies and I am proud of being one.
In the Heros you never mentioned Guru Gobind Singh. the poets like Waris Shah, Damodar, Peelu, Shah Mumand are also worth mentioning.
But your artical needs some corrections also.
1. Loona(not Leena) was Puran`s step Mother who as per writers fell in love with Puran but Puran considered her mother. Loona Managed to get a death sentence for Puran. he was rescued by a Jogi and he became one himself.
2. Raja Rasaloo was Puran`s Younger step brother and it is said he was born by Purans blessings to his father and step mother.

This is a great post - thx !

sadna:
Thanks for an informative post!

dost-mittar #271

Sorry, long post.
You are quite right, the language policy is not uniform in India. The reason is that education is a subject on the state list and central list : meaning center has responsibilities
but states have the primary responsibility and make their own education policy.

3-language formula is a Central Government RECOMMENDATION which the states are free to reject- for example Tamil Nadu has rejected the 3-language formula and adheres to 2-language formula(regional language + English) .

Excerpt from Central govt.site :

``Though education is in the concurrent list of the Constitution, the State Governments play a very major role in the development of education particularly in the primary and the secondary education sectors``

``MEDIUM OF INSTRUCTION

Mother tongue or regional language is the medium of instruction at the primary stage of education in most of the States/UTs. Facilities for studying in a medium other than regional language vary considerably in different States and Union Territories.

TEACHING OF HINDI

Apart from Hindi speaking States, teaching of Hindi is compulsory in most of the non-Hindi speaking States/UTs, though the classes from which the teaching of Hindi is compulsory differ from State to State. Teaching of Hindi is not compulsory in the States of Tamil Nadu, Tripura and Karaikal region of Pondicherry.

TEACHING OF ENGLISH

Teaching of English is compulsory in all the States/UTs, except Bihar. However, the classes in which teaching of English is compulsory differs from State to State. In general, it is compulsory in Classes VI-X in most of the States/UTs.``

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Himachal Pradesh has 77% literacy overall and ``The literacy rate in the age group of 10 to 14 years had also reached 94 per cent for boys and 86 per cent for girls``. It can afford to now include English education from class I.

In Bihar, overall literacy is 47.5%. DROP OUT rate at primary school level is 65%.
http://www.incg.org.in/CountryGateway/PrimaryEducation/EduNews/Bihar`sprimaryeducationsystem.htm

``Bihar lags much behind other states as far as quality and quantity of school teachers is concerned. Ten to 25 per cent of the primary schools in the state have a pupil-teacher ratio above 100:1. Even in the districts covered by the District Primary Education Project, more than a quarter of schools have no blackboards``


Now if Lalooji wants to spend Bihar`s education budget on English teachers for already existing schools instead of increasing number/quality of of schools and teachers to reduce dropout rate and increase literacy rates, I cannot commend his choice of expenditure.

Re not teaching a third language in Hindi states, well I suspect this has not had happy effects on Hindi speakers in several ways. My general experience which has been that even well-educated North Indian Hindi speakers are painfully ignorant about/insular towards the rest of the country. I don`t know how this helps them or India.

btw just to give a sense of the numbers, according to 1995-1996 figures, India had then 150 million children enrolled in schools(91% of total children in age group 6-14). 109 million of these children were primary school-age, with 1.74 million primary school teachers teaching them. However national drop-out rate at primary level was 36.3 percent and drop-out rate at upper primary level was 52.7 percent.

Noon meal schemes (now made mandatory?) may help these numbers. Only if there are enough FUNCTIONING schools will teaching English be an additional allure(IMO), because otherwise the English teacher can just as easily be absentee employee like the other teachers(Hindi/etc) evidently are, presently.

sadna:
I am not sure if the language thing is uniform in India. The 3-language formual, I heard, was not working at least in the North, its intent was being defeated by hindi-speakers learning sanskrit instead of one of the south indian languages. And it seems that the medium of instruction may be changing, too. After losing children to the so-called english-medium schools, the state-run schools seem, even in Lalu`s Bihar, have been introducing english at earlier stages; I read yesterday that himachal pradesh, which incidentally has shown remarkable progress in literacy, is introducing english in schools from Grade one.
Chowk published an article by me which tangentially touched on the historical aspect of language in India. But they took it out at my request to replace it with ``oursourcing terror`` article. Hopefully, they will publish it again.

I`ve just read Nazar Khan`s very interesting contribution on Punjab`s forgotten heroes, and here are a couple of thoughts stimulated by it.

Khan wonders why no Punjabi today is named after Poros, whilst many are named after Alexander. I suspect that this is quite true of West Punjab; on the East and elsewhere in India, though, children are regularly named for both historical figures. By one of those historical ironies for which the South Asian subcontinent is famous, Alexander came back to us through the medium of Islamic folklore (into which he had in the meanwhile been absorbed) as Al-Iskander; Poros was forgotten, but his Aryan clan name (Poros being, of course, a Grecianisation) continued to be part of the genetic code of public memory: Puru.

One cavil, however. The charkha -- if both of us mean the belt-driven wheel device for spinning cotton associated with Mahatma Gandhi`s campaign of self-reliance -- was unknown in Aryan times. It was introduced into South Asia from West Asia, in the wake of the Ghazni conquests (early second millennium AD, nearly three thousand years after the Aryans; cf: historians of technology such as P K Gode and Irfan Habib).

Ranjit Hoskote, Bombay (India)

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tahmed32, zahraj, nazar,

I think the point about the now infamous summarization has been well made by all of you. Nazar sahib has already made amends and maybe my pressing on was unnecessary. My point about the airforce was a general comment about military and its implementation of the occam`s razor as an article of faith. I can see however that the air force remark was out of line... it won`t be repeated again.

Hope to see you all at my wedding.

-YLH

nazar #266 no need for thanks. i suppose i should behave in the same gentleman-way like you do with some people on chowks, but.........on second thought....naaaaaah.

it is more fun to go down to the same level as some of these characters on chowk. my personal favorites are the hindu chauvinists along with the mullah brigade. i havent had more fun with such morons since the schooldays.

nevertheless, my hat (if i had one) off to you for maintaining that stiff upper lip.

All this for raising some voice for the Punjabis :-

Manto - I was never an Air Commodore. I was Gp. Capt. & since long have left this title & never use it. Spent about 24 years in Air Force. On Chowk, you need not get that personal. Jaane Do. May be it is better if we agree not to interact at all with each other. There seems to be some highly inflammable chemistry here.

Tehmed32 & ZaraJ - thanks for pulling me out of water. My apologies for any non-discretion.

SameerJB - How can I thank you for this information. I will buy these Volumes. Today, I finished Khuswant Singh`s ``Truth, Love & little malice``. It was a good Punjabi dose + highly entertaining.

Sadna , Dost-Mitter : As always, enlightening.

dost_mittar #earlier post
If I may point out, wrt a point you raised earlier. In one country, regional aspirations(including language) have been by and large accomodated as legitimate, in other, such aspirations have always been cast as threats to the holy sanctity of Muslim unity.

In a hypothetical United India if for example Tamilians or the Telugu-speaking had wanted to teach their children their own language, it would have been seen as a Hindu ploy to shatter Muslim unity. Exactly like when Bengalis in East Pakistan made common cause with each other on language and region-specific issues, it was viewed as a Hindu threat to Muslim unity. For a period in the 50s/60s East Pakistani Hindus even had to vote in separate electorates simply to prevent Bengalis from making such common cause on regional issues.

Despite the fashionable view of blaming Nehru, its India which beginning with linguistic reorganisation progresses to a federal structure of governance. The professed pre-Partition believers in federal structure of governance continue to view even normal provincial aspirations as inherently seccesionist in the belief that overwhelming central control over provinces is the only feasible system to preserve Muslim unity and integrity of the nation.

Nazar Hayat Khan:

Here is something you can have for 58 dollars in USA.

The Legends of the Panjab - A 2 Volume Set
by R C Temple
Paperback - 1373 Pages (Year: 2002)
ISBN: 81-7167-636-7

This set of 2 volumes is a book about the folktales and folklore, the heroes and heroines of the Punjab in the times gone by. This work brings out the true flavor of the Panjabi poetry through renditions of many of the original Panjabi poems in the Roman script.

R C Temple`s translation of the legends and the ballads retains the essence of the original in all its pristine glory. An introduction by noted Panjabi writer Kartar Singh Duggal sheds a clear light on a work of this importance.

The legends of the Panjab - a 2 volume set - is a book about the folktales and folklore, the heroes and heroines of the Panjab in the times gone by. Often told in the form of poems and ballads by the muses of yore, the legends describe the life, loves adventures and heroics of its fold heroes and heroines like Raja Rasalu, Dhanna Bhagat. Guru Gugga, Raja Mahi Parkash, Syama, Madana, Safidon, Lal Beg and Princesses Adhik Anup Dai, Niwal Dai and Sila Dai. The legends of Sakhi Sarwar and Dani Jatti, the marriage of Ghazi Salar, the song of Nagi Bahadur and the Ballads of Isa Baniya and Isa Bapari are also included.

VOL. 2
`The Legends of The Panjab` (Volume Two) is a book about the folktales and folklore, the heroes and heroines of the Panjab in the times gone by. Often told in the form of poems and ballads by the muses of yore, the legends describe the life, loves, adventures and heroics of its folk heroes and heroines like Raja Gopi Chand, Raja Chandarbhan and Rani Chand Karan, Chuhar Singh, Sansar Chand and Fateh Parkash. Raja Jagat Singh of Nurpur, Abdul-Qadir Jilani. Abdu`llah Shah, Raja Jagdeo, Raja Nal, Raja Dhol, Raja Rattan Sain of Chittaur, Puran Bhagat, Mir Chakur, Hir-Ranjha, etc.

The book brings out the true flavor of Panjabi poetry through renditions of many of the original Panjabi poems in the Roman scripts.

Table of Contents

VOL. 1

Introduction
Preface

The Adventures of Raja Rasalu
Sakhi Sarwar and Dani Jatti
Dhanna, The Bhagat
Three Fragments About Sarwar
The Marriage of Ghazi Salar
The Legend of Guru Gugga
The Balled of Isa Baniya
The Ballad of Isa Bapari
Princess Adhik Anup Dai
The Legend of Sila Dai
The Story of Raja Mahi Parkash of Sarmor
The Story of Syama, Lord of Sohini
The Song of Negi Bahadur
Madana the Brave, Lord of Chaura
The Legend of Safidon
Princess Niwal Dai
The Genealogies of Lal Beg

VOL. 2
The Legend of Raja Gopi Chand
The Story of Raja Chandarbhan and Rani Chand Karan
Two Songs About Namdev
Sakhi Sarwar and Jati
The Marriage of Sakhi Sarwar
The Ballad of Chuhar Singh
Sansar Chand of Kangra and Fatteh Parkash of Sarmor
Raja Jagat Singh of Nupur
A Hymn to `Abdul`l-Qadir Jilani
The Blacksmith`s Daughter
The Legend of ``Abdu`llah Shah of Samin
The Story of Raja jagdeo
Raja Nal
The Legend of Raja Dhol
Raja Rattan Sain of Chittaur
Three versions of Sarwan and Farijan
Puran Bhagat
The Adventures of Mir Chakur
Isma`il Khan`s Grandmother
The Bracelet-Maker of Jhang
The Marriage of Hir and Ranjha

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Something to think about? Did political climate of 19th century influenced it.

THE DEVELOPMENT OF TONE IN PANJABI AS EVIDENCED IN THE POETIC ALLITERATION PATTERNS

Carrie Estill
Ph.D. Dissertation, 1985
Department of Linguistics, University of Wisconsin, Madison

Abstract
Since the Nineteenth Century scholars have observed that Panjabi, unlike the other Indo-European languages of India, has tone. My thesis is divided into four chapters: (I) A short description of Pnajabi phonology. (II) A review of the literature concerning Panjabi tone. (III) A discussion of tone in languages other than Panjabi. (IV) Evidence from poetry supporting my thesis that the tonal phenomenon in Panjabi is recent. In the last chapter I examine poetry from the Adi Granth, poetry by Shah Husain, the Epic of Heer and Ranjha by Waris Shah, and poetry by many modern poets. Evidence for initial alliteration between voiceless unaspirates and voiced aspirates is common only in the work of the modern poets, suggesting that the changes in tone occurred recently, perhaps as recently as the Nineteenth Century.

dost_mittar #262
Thanks for a post which addresses the topic at hand. Posts which discuss the topic and not other posters seem to be becoming rarer.

Re Indian and Chinese education, IMO there is a balance needed between too much emphasis on one`s own culture, history, ethos and a total estrangement from it.

Too much emphasis on one`s own culture/ethos(or religion) would make for chauvinistic inward looking citizens at odds with realities in the outside world. Too little emphasis would yield insecure alienated citizens who fall prey to unhappy unconstructive influences(something like the situation facing inner city children).

The right balance leads to citizens/communities dealing with the world on their own terms yet striving to achieve more.

The interesting question is when viewed without ideological biases, how did/how does Indian education in the whole(wrt various states, wrt various central boards) score on this point.

Manto and everyone on this board,

Eid Mubarak to you & your families.

Happy Thanksgiving. It does not have to be a Turkey. You can serve a well done Salmon.


Manto:
Again, I agree with the gist of your argument. Laiken, I think the assessment of yours in the context of airforce and stuff is a very personal remark. I do not have that many uncles who have served in army and airforce to be able to make such assertions. By the way, I think nature was hearing my desire to have the two items I have identified in my previous post to Nazar. Last night was a friend`s mehndi party and we were informed that it will be a sober event with prayers. Well, just as the duaa was finished, the hot members of that party could not keep it sober any more and they were all out jumping up and down and later served my favorite combination suji ka halwa with well made namkeen chai. I have yet to attend any wedding ceremony in the US where they served namkeen chai and pheeyonian. It was heavenly. One never knows what may be heard when :)

As the poet says:
~Dil Sae Jo Baa`t Nikaltee Hae Asr Rakhtee Hae
Pur Naheen Taqutae` Parvaa`z Magar Rakh`tee Hae.

I look forward to attending if I am around by then. Even if I am not able to attend the Big Day, let`s have a pow wow when I am in Lahore and catch up.

Best Wishes.

Apropos the topic:
Here is an article from ``Pacific News Service``. Note the excerpt, ``It`s not coincidental that Indian and Chinese youngsters do well in many areas of education. They are all immersed in stories about great heroes and heroines that mould their minds and give their souls direction. ``

``Return of the Old Empires: India and China
Commentary, Franz Schurmann,
Pacific News Service, Nov 26, 2003

Editor`s Note: India and China, both with strong and prosperous economies, have overcome old vehemence to shake hands across their once bloody border.

On Nov. 22, 2003, the prestigious French paper ``Le Monde`` ran the headline ``Huge Asian Common Market Working Better Than Europe`s.`` The two founders of the world`s newest common market are China and India, each with a population of over a billion, and each with high literacy rates. Just a few years back, relations between the two countries were terrible. How is it that now they are cooperating so well that Le Monde hailed it as a ``new direction in (global) development?``

One answer is that both countries are sick and tired of their mutual hatred of each other. The animosity started in 1959 when the Dalai Lama fled from Tibet to India, where he still lives. In 1962 the two countries fought a war over Aksai-Chin, a barren plateau in the frozen Himalayas. Neither side gained anything except deepening hatred.

However, the thaw in the relations between the two countries occurred in January 2002, when former Chinese Prime Minister Zhu Rongji visited India. Zhu was the first high-ranking Chinese official to do so in 11 years. This time Zhu started a process that recently resulted in joint maneuvers by the two navies in the East China Sea. Zhu also gave a speech in Bangalore, India`s information Technology (IT) hub. The gist of the speech was that China excels in hardware while India excels in software. And his punch line was that the two countries should work together.

Two years later, Sino-Indian IT cooperation is moving at a fast pace. An example of this Sino-Indian common market is that NIIT Ltd, one of India`s biggest software producing firms, has landed a contract to build 125 schools in China`s 25 provinces. NIIT will teach 25,000 students each year.

Another answer to the question how hatred morphed into cooperation is that both China and India are ancient empires that produced brilliant civilizations. Empires are states that rule over a great diversity of peoples and extend over huge tracts of lands. Civilizations are cultures on a vast scale. And culture can be defined as the ways people live, work and think together.

Some empires rest on great civilizations, others do not. The former last very long while the latter do not. China and India are the world`s greatest examples of the former. And great empires like these seek peace and prosperity. It`s the short-lived empires that stir up wars, like the ones led by Napoleon and Hitler.

The Indians and Chinese have three or four millennia of civilization embedded in the minds and souls of their huge populations. Now they also have well-functioning states highly respected throughout the world. It`s not coincidental that Indian and Chinese youngsters do well in many areas of education. They are all immersed in stories about great heroes and heroines that mould their minds and give their souls direction. Their most powerful direction is education.

Furthermore, both civilizations radiated out to many countries, near and far. These collateral youngsters perform just as well as those of the root civilization. For one thing, they share the traditional stories of the root civilization. Even way back in history when foreigners ruled India and China these rulers accepted much or all of the great civilizations that surrounded them.

And over the centuries many of those foreign rulers gave their Indian and Chinese subjects the peace that provided security to farmers, traders and intellectuals. The rulers of both countries now know that the combination of a strong state and a brilliant civilization can give their huge populations what most want, peace and prosperity.

An answer to the question posed by Le Monde, why the new Sino-Indian common market is doing better than the European Union (EU), is that after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476 B.C., Europe only had only short-lived empires. Charlemagne`s attempt lasted less than two decades.

Napoleon crowned himself Emperor in 1804 and met his Waterloo in 1815. Hitler`s Thousand Year Reich didn`t even last a decade.

Around the beginning of the second millennium Europe did create a civilization, the Renaissance, that still sends rays of knowledge and beauty all over the world. But they were not able to create a Roman-style empire in Europe.

Britain built a vast empire all over the world but shunned Europe. France`s dominion over Europe died at Waterloo. Like many empires, Austria had great diversity but was never able to create a strong state.

And today, while Europe is still struggling to build a strong European state, India and China are using their historical capital to create both brilliant civilizations and strong states.

PNS Editor Franz Schurmann (fschurmann@pacificnews.org) is emeritus professor of sociology and history at U.C. Berkeley and the author of numerous books.``

mantolives #260 i too thought that nhk`s summarization was off the mark, and explained why i thought so in my post. nor did i find his response particularly enlightening. the least he could have done is acknowledge the points i made. his response was instead a cop out saying that we were making too big a deal out of what he wrote.

however, having said that, i fail to share your pain in the suffering you say you have had to endure in arguing with nhk. nhk is a courteous gentleman if nothing else, and that is more than can be said for most of us on chowk (present company included).

Zahraj,

Having suffered NHK`s style of arguing many times... he seems to rely heavily on :

1) Occam`s Razor: pertaining to simplest applicable theory
2) Strawman fallacy: associating a false argument with the opposition and then bringing it down.

undeniably he appears to be well intentioned... and he fancies himself an intellectual.. but sadly a military education and over 30 years of military service has rendered him incapable of original thinking ... you will always see him trying to simplify and compartmentalize... as if you could do that to humanity. Given that he is beyond 50 years of age... his patterns are pretty set. And he definitely doesn`t like to read or give the other person`s argument the time of day ...

In many ways he is the exact opposite of the other chowk elder... our favorite Nand uncle.

-YLH