Anarkali Bazaar

yasser,
that remark was not intended for the pakistanis, or the lahoris. but thank you for clarifying all the same.

~ana

Ana,

I for one didn`t accuse you of putting Lahore or Pakistan in a bad light.

Your article is the truth... this is a common complaint of women.

-Manto

i have been away and have not been able to respond to posts, but i just wanted to say that i appreciate the feedback on this article and the discussion it has generated.

what mari experienced in anarkali is something that many of us (including myself) experience in various parts of the world. it is not something that is unique to pakistan or muslim societies. i`m not suggesting here that anyone implied as such, but i was rather uncomfortable with the `communal` bend this conversation was moving into. it was not my intention, nor do i think it can be read between the lines that i was putting lahore, or pakistan in a bad light, but all those who have their preconceived notions as well as what they`ve deduced from reading various texts will make conclusions of their own.

some of you have been able to relate to this, and i appreciate you sharing your experiences with me. molestation (quite different from eve-teasing, whatever the heck that means) does affect our lives in various ways. and we react to it in various ways. mari`s was to remain silent, and endure the pain, but t. is right in saying that one should not remain silent when something like this happens. even if the authorities do or can do little about it.

violence in men has more to do with just sexual repression. we can`t just reduce it to that. . .this is not to say that that is not a factor, but it is much more than that. . .it is definitely much more than vulgarity.

and cipram. .thank you for pointing out there was really nothing to my article. might i just add there was really nothing to your response either.

regards,
~ana

re:#52 by ahmedmadani
Ahmadmadani Sahib,
Thanks for your post.
Your posts are always down to earth and honest and compel everyone to think and ponder over a number of issues that you talk about.
I hope God gives you strength to tide over your personal problems. All of us have some or the other problem, some more than the others.
rgds,
Sridhar

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I`d actually agree with Jawahara here that ``most areas in India are prone to harrassment, regardless of religion`` and it happens with or without gender seggregation.
Having interacted with people from all parts of India I can`t compartmentalize behaviour from different states and religion. Lecherous Venky and mild mannered Shrini are both from Madras, Reddy the stud and Reddy the dud are Hyderabadis. The sardar who groped this way thru life was different from his unfailingly polite brother. There was lust laden Ali (Ali Lust Laden?) with the standard dialogue - ``deygi`` so different from Feroze who had eyes down, stammering and blushing whenever spoken to by a girl. Apna De`Souza forever booking rooms in cheap hotels and the muscle bound Mike leaving us guys to to go and study in the library ``sorry yaar girfriend nay appan ko phadnay ko bola hai``.
Lets put it this way, in a country where the ratio of men to women is 1000 to 932, frustrated jerks are not too hard to find.

Re manto:

Oh my ....your highness approves. Must be my Lucky day. :) Well i beg to differ from your impression. I think you would be able to look up the results on some pakistani government website concerning the Pakistani Election commission or the offical election results published by the election commission. Otherwise the fact that even MQM`s power base i.e. Karachi is being run by a MMA nazim should be enough to illusrate my point of view.
anyway have fun
cheers
raza

(P.S Anyway leavng behind all the fuss we OR according to You I as a NAYSAYER created lets discuss this issue at hand. So any opinion about my little solution of bringing a change within the system (NSC etc) instead of looking for miracle solutions ? )

ahmedmadani#36

This is not the vinatge ahmed madani... This sounds more like someone trained in Dawkinsonian school of thought, and not our ole ``son of the soil`` madani... Who art thou, madani.

#50 by Jawahara

And from me too. Thanks for sharing your views.

Regards.

Mr. Sridharji... I thought you were in computers, sorry it was misunderstading.

I also a conservative person and do not watch Indian movies, I like india in general some things i like but some things i donot . I hate afghans for creating troubles to us. They have been most damaging as even our great Shah Varis said( afghans have damaged Punjab). It may not be known by indians we are afraid of them for sexual reasons. The repressed Afghan mens make victim of boys . This is true as they are more repressed than us. A retired maj. Generals grnad child (male) was molested in Pindi and even he could not move army and police to move against them as people are afraid of Afghans. They are very difficult people as they do not care even for their life and you do is their advantage. Even today entertainment industry is striking to have access to Indian channels. Its all talk about indian movies introducing bad sex and immorality is all wrong. I work in position in industry its all appears so foolish. Its not indian but russian channels ( secret), pornograhic viedos, well are introducing things which people want watch and cherish. Even army can not stop it. Its all available why not make free and remove crime. Its insane to ban indian channels and give access to thai, arab channels (I wonder even 1% can follow ) arabic. Poster damaging is more repression on women form than any thing. Its silly even chief minister knows that.
95% of Indian are silly and vulgar and romance is pathetic. Specially men actors are miserable, foeced dancing on overweight , feeble , steoriod pumped men is miserable as dancers and must be hard on thier efoots. But i will not ban them for sure.
I like conservative attitude of people. But I know I can not suppress my daughters to follow what is correct, I can stand by and try to tell them. Unfortunately that age is bad. Recently I get very angry as kind of our elder feels I can not follow her( my daughter) and I feel she can not or even listen to what I am saying. And we shout at each other , not good for my heart and Blood pressure. I suspects many fathers feel their otherwise smart bautiful daughters make wrong selection of stupid Lafangas and sad part some times even chaffing with fire inside we have to accept as Lafangas. Yes men has sorrows but mothers feels it ok that makes me even more angry with wife and i and her shout at each other. Really this our daughter has put too much tension in. And all other her sisters feel I am monster type.
I some times feel its all stupid. I am for women but our house women folk feel i am hard dictector patriarch. And son does not support me he is small. So one against four one never wins. Some times I feel they watch too much indian liberal, movies and god damn stupid love stores and lafanga boy turns ok. That only problem with movies. They should how when you marry Lafanga boys results in regrets and problems. Other than no problem. Sorry I can just 3 hours ago quarrel so excuse for deliquency in thought process but this gives chance to empty all my anger on hindi movies etc. I am not balanced today.
Good luck to all fathers, i am with them against stupid daughters.
good luck

Anuradha, I never said religion (or specifically Islam) was not in favor of seggregation. That is a seperate issue. What I said was that most areas in India are prone to harrassment, regardless of religion. Since I have never lived in a predominantly Muslim area, but have lived in mixed areas, that is my experience. With all due respect I have traveled extensively in Hindu-dominated Rajasthan and mostly mixed or Hindu majority places and think I have a good and varied viewpoint on this issue. Ask any woman, hindu, muslim or anything else, and they will tell you how common harrassment is in that area, in U.P, M.P. and several other states.

Now between Bangalore and Hyderabad, I think the difference is more that one is a generally more cosmopolitan and open city and the other is not. The same difference can be seen between Bombay (cosmopolitan) and Nasik (not).

More traditional areas and cities, whether Muslim or Hindu, are usually places where harrassment occurs. If Hyderabad is seggregated because of the Muslim influence, then Puri in Orissa is so because of its ancient Hindu roots. You guessed it, it is a hot bed of groping harrassers as well, especially as you wander in the Jaggannath temple area. Most of Indian society (barring a few Southern States) is seggregated and *that* is a contributing factor for harrassment. Blaming it on just one religion is a knee-jerk reaction.
In fact, blaming it just on religion as a whole is reactionary as well. Religion is just one of the many factors (and not a causal one at that) that leads to the harrassment of women in India.

The southern part of India as a whole is generally better than is the north. I have done a Bharat Darshan type of train journey for 4 months in India and this is what I saw and experienced, as did the friends I traveled with. I think, therefore, I have a larger sample size than you do.

Blaming Islam for harrassment is as myopic as blaming Hinduism for female infanticide in Rajasthan or bride burning in the entire north. The socio-cultural climate, long seated views about women, economics, etc. etc. have more to do with these issues than just religion based seggregation.

That`s all from me on this topic now.

re:#43 by tahmed32
No need to take offense. I was only stating my impression, formed from talking to friends (all Pakistanis during my residency days) and from interacting with people in Chowk, among other places. Ahmad Madani`s posts are revealing. That man impresses me with his honesty. Please read his posts again.
It is just an impression, so i may be wrong. But i hear of posters of models being torn apart in NWFP, songs and music being banned in that state and what do you think i should think? That Pak society is tolerant and everything is hunky dory?

What the heck is repression any way. A dictionary definiton of repression would be:
``A state of forcible subjugation``. At least parts of Pakistan have repressive laws that i have mentioned already. Would you still say i am prejudiced?
Sridhar

re:#44 by Mantolives
Thanks for your invitation. I would certainly like to visit Pakistan someday.
One forms impressions from reading news items, interacting with other people, so on and so forth. Only a Pakistani living in Pak can be the best judge of Pak society. In that respect, what i said can at best be labelled as my impressions over the last several years. I may be completely wrong. But Ahmad Madani`s recent post and posts by some Pak women chowkies in the past have been revealing. Above all, it is Pak women who must be the judge of what the society is doing to them.
rgds,
Sridhar

re:#43 by tahmed32
You are correct when you say that i could not form a correct opinion of Pak society without visiting that country. Still one does form some impressions while interacting with others. I hope i did not offend you or any other paki. That was not my intention.
If you read my post to Anuradha again, i never said India was better than Pak. I was only criticising the attitude of some Indians who think that being highly westernised amounts to ``being free``. I was arguing that being conservative is nothing to be ashamed about. So, i do not know where you got the impression that i was having this ``holier than thou`` attitude.
Sridhar

#41 by rsridhar

well I only thought what mr madani had to say might interest you... so no need to take offence :)

as for the rest of your post, what you say may be true... I don`t know, I`ve never been to the US or Pak, but I don`t see what it has to do with the little argument we were having.

#39 by Jawahara

I`ll just repeat my wonderful Little Communal Theory again...

1. I first said that the segregation of sexes aggravates harassment of women (I think we are agreed on that?)

2. I next said that I`ve spent years in Hyd which is muslim dominated and a very segregated society, even the buses are divided into male and female sections, and in theatres they have separate queues for men and women, something I`ve never seen anywhere else - and my experiences with harassers there were BAD

and in bangalore where I now live, a hindu dominated city and a liberal cosmopolitan place with very little segregation - my experiences were, and are, good.

I thought it was pretty obvious that it was because of the muslim influence that hyd society was so segregated. And that segregation led to all that harassment on the streets. I certainly wasn`t implying that hyd (or india) would be a better place if there weren`t any muslims, just wishing that they would reduce the segregation and allow men and women to mix a bit more in society. If that was so very communal of me, I do beg your pardon.

And if you really believe that religion has nothing to do with segregation, I guess there`s nothing more to be said.

Let`s just agree to disagree.

a.

Ooops I left Pakistan for the US in 1998... Sorry about that.