Jaipur Dreams

one of the most beautifully written pieces I have read. excellent. tho the tone is totally FLIPPED and almost lost in the last paragraph, a very flowing, well written piece. Kudos. Four-thumbs up! ;)

Gujjubania

I would expect you to realize by now that the real ENEMY is in the Pakistani elites who have used Islam to legitimize their exitence. Rest of the guys below them are compradors who lick the boots of these elites in order to climb up the social ladder. These are fence sitters who would abandon a sinking ship- whether Bibi, Mian or Mush. These are the real parasites, who prey upon the dead flesh left by the Elites of Pakistan. You cannot change them. They would serve their masters- that is the way Pakistan has been always and would remain.

If you love India and its secular traditions then you should fight the dictators and mullahs who use Islam or Hindu Gita to legitimize their positions. You should fight those who raise armies of killers to kill innocents and claim that it was sanctioned by the divine. Those who let the mobs rape and loot and quote scriptures to remove any traces of guilt that may strain their consience when the memories of their victims flash in their minds. these b@stard Elites are our real enemy- they are enemies of humanity. THey are also in your Modi`s Shakhas, in the RSS ranks- they are the real enemies of humanity. They would quote scriptures to remove their guilt of raping and killing muslim women in Gujrat.

I hope you aim at the real actors in the play - and not Islam which has been much mis-used by the B@stards to continue their evil ways of killing and loot.

Ballukhan #152

``Replace ``PAkistan`` with ``Gujrat`` and the sentences can be read...``

What a zinger that was.....hope gujju realizes how ludicrous he has been sounding.


gujjubania

Please don`t think you love India any more than us. You may be very young and hotheaded. Still we all need to develop a broader perspective. That is what living in, and working to build, a plularistic society is all about.

Ballukhan #152

What Pakistan`s intentions have been could not be clearer when this same Javed Nasir was appointed the head of the Paksitani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee.

Many people from Pakistan did not know this. It is amazing how little Pakistanis know of Pakistan.

Reg: #145 by gujjubania on November 3, 2003 8:19am PT

``These barbaric acts constitute the
collective guilt of the entire Pakistani nation, which every
Pakistani-including the Najam Sethis-must share and pay for. There is
absolutely no ground, no justification, for a schizophrenic
distinction between those who wield power in Pakistan and the rest.``


Replace ``PAkistan`` with ``Gujrat`` and the sentences can be read in the context of Gujrat riots. I hope that atleast you also feel ashamed for the omissions and commissions of the Modi government in the gujrat riots.

nothing less than dis-integration of India will satisfy the Army Generals !!!!

Lt. General Javed Nasir is one of Pakistan`s ``thinking Generals``. He has been head of the ISI. He is among the Generals who were associated with Pakistan`s successes in Afghanistan. Not just a typical voice, therefore, a crucial one. Recall that Nawaz Sharif made his desperate flight to Washington on July 3, that he signed the capitulatory joint-statement with Clinton on July 4. On July 1 -- that is, just three days before Nawaz Sharif had to accept that Pakistan would withdraw behind the Line of Control -- Lt. General Javed Nasir was telling Pakistanis that India was on the brink of defeat and collapse and disintegration! Readers would have concluded that the Indian defeat was so overwhelming that Vajpayee had as good as lost his mind!


Defeat in Kargil will spell disaster at the polls, that is what is staring Vajpayee in the face, this former controller of the ISI wrote. ``He was angry,`` the General wrote, describing, no doubt from secret sources of the ISI, a meeting of the Indian Prime Minister with our Service Chiefs, ``froth coming out of his mouth, shaking with anger, a little bit stammering [sic.], he let the Khakis have it.`` ``I order you to throw them out, otherwise there will be large-scale sackings irrespective of ranks.``


The Kargil operation has already inflicted unbearable cost on India, the General calculated. Each shell of Bofors costs a thousand dollars, his spies told him; in just one week India has fired nearly 30,000 rounds, his sources on the front told him. That means India has burnt up three billion dollars in just one week, his calculator indicated. And now India will have to spend another ten billion dollars to replace the barrels of the guns. Four days earlier, in another article, the General had recalled how, at the time of the Lahore Bus diplomacy, in an article in The Nation, ``I had implored the Pakistani Army and Mujahideen to interdict the Srinagar-Drass road to make things more difficult for the Indians in Siachin. The Mujahideen executed a brilliant plan.`` His brilliant plan having been executed so brilliantly, Indians are on the run, the General informed his countrymen.


And for good and obvious reasons, he said. ``Whereas the Mujahideen are fighting for a just cause and Shahadat is the greatest honour they can receive and as such they are fighting for this noble objective, the Indian soldiers are highly demoralized. Most of them have already completed their Kashmir tenure and want to go back to the safety of the mainland. They are being forced into the attacks and kept in Kashmir against their will. They only fulfil the formality of attack.`` This plain truth was being portrayed by Pakistan TV, he said, and that is why the Indian Government banned it! But Indians continue to watch Pakistan TV ``for factual and correct situation``, using dish antennas, he said, ``despite house raids by police``! All we have to do is to keep the road to Siachin closed, he wrote the next day. That will force India to spend Rs 30-40 crore a day, ``which will break the Indian back``! The General painted even rosier gardens. If the Indian Army can be prevented from retaking the Kargil positions, Vajpayee will be forced to lunge into Pakistan crossing the LoC. This prospect ``offers the Pakistan Army the opportunity of the century to redeem its honour and take revenge for Dhaka.`` Once Pakistan makes a major penetration into India, the Sikhs will get and grab ``the opportunity of the millennium to rise and play havoc with India`s lines of communications.`` And once there is a major setback to India in Punjab, ``the Sikh dream of Khalistan will become a reality.`` And that will induce the Tamils to revolt in the South, and the Nagas and the Mizos to proclaim their Unilateral Declaration of Independence``!


Faced with disintegration, Vajpayee will have to opt for the nuclear option, the General forecast. Therefore, he counseled the world, before India reaches that point, the world should solve the Kashmir problem ``in accordance with the resolutions of the Security Council.`` Q E D! Not only has Pakistan the opportunity of a century because of the bind in which India is caught, Allah has conferred a special boon on Pakistan to enable it to avail of this opportunity, the General`s reasoning went. And what is that boon? ``In Parvez Musharraf we have an excellent General,`` he explained, ``who has the blend of dynamism (his SSG background) and superb professionalism. Allah chose him for this occasion. He will not only deliver but deliver beyond expectations of all. He is the gift of Allah to the nation.``


The only thing to guard against is American perfidy, the General wrote. On his reckoning, the Pakistan Army has won each and every war with India, and it is only the USA, ``which has a history of betrayals towards Pakistan,`` that has compelled Pakistan to forgo what it had won on the ground! General Hamid Gul, an even more formidable former head of the ISI, was announcing victories in even more vivid colours. ``General Gul predicts Indian troops surrender,`` ran the headlines of The Pakistan Observer on 27 June. That the Indians were concentrating so many troops in the area is all to the good, General Gul told the paper. Soon, the monsoon will set in, and they will be trapped in ``the hills, dales and jungles of Kashmir while this terrain is familiar and friendly to the Mujahideen.`` ``He said,`` the paper reported, ``it is pre-ordained that this military machine that subjected Kashmiris to terrorism will be humiliated and disgraced at the hands of a handful of Mujahideen.``

Ref gujjubania #147

[``Over 10 million children are out of school in Bihar and Eastern UP. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION FOR THEM???? Or do you think they will learn to read and write by ``being anti-pakistani``??? ``

Blame Chacha Nehru for that . He ensured that government of India spent 3 or 4 times more on colleges than on schools .]

As a very high official in India once told me, if money had gone to elementary and secondary education instead of export-quality IITs, India would have become Communist. Remember that Kerala and West Bengal, the earliest states to go Communist, had and continue to have higher than average literacy rates.

Chacha Nehru? My friend referred to him as Bandit Nehru!

Ref nooralain #140

[harimau. . .
what did you not understand about the peanut gallery being closed today? honestly. . .simple english just isn`t accessible by chowkwallahs these days. what to do??? read my words...]

Aw mom, you are taking away all the fun in coming to Chowk.

I think the point that I was trying to make was about the Pakistani Army, ISI and its demented Generals - Public opinion is fluid (every army General knows that in Pakistan ``legitimacy`` is about making right type of noises about how ``fair, just and progressive`` the ruler is) and can be changed through media in Pakistan- only if Army Generals let the media, papers, radio and their text books talk about secularism.
Any attempt to construe the posts as PAki muslim bashing is BS!!!

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-11-2003_pg3_3

Daily Times, Pakistan
Tuesday, November 04, 2003

[The Muslims of South Asia do not have any automatic right to enter Pakistan as the Jews have to enter Israel under the so-called Law of Return. Is this consistent with the founding ideology of Pakistan, the two-nation theory?]

Pakistan and South Asian Muslims
By Ishtiaq Ahmed

[The author is an associate professor of Political Science at Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se]

Among the various tragedies attendant upon the break-up of Pakistan in 1971, when East Pakistan became Bangladesh, is the unresolved status of some 250,000 Biharis stranded in Bangladeshi refugee camps. The Biharis, an Urdu-speaking people originally from the north-eastern Indian state of Bihar, migrated to East Pakistan when the subcontinent was partitioned in 1947 between Hindu-majority India and Muslim-majority Pakistan.

Most of the Biharis sided with Pakistan during the 1971 Bengali uprising. That made them a pariah group in Bangladesh. Most of them want to immigrate to Pakistan and have refused to acquire Bangladeshi citizenship, claiming that they are Pakistanis and therefore entitled to set up hearth and home in Pakistan. Under international law, if the Biharis wish to remain Pakistanis there is no reason to refuse them permission to settle in Pakistan. Some Bihari families have been allowed to join their kin in Pakistan but the bulk has been denied this birthright.

Does this make sense? No. We have brought Pakistan almost to the point of veritable economic ruination by our uncompromising support for the Kashmiris’ right of self-determination but we do not give most of our bona fide citizens their basic right to clean water, education and a meal because our priority is ‘defence spending’ for an inevitable war with arch-enemy India.

But letting Biharis relocate in Pakistan would surely not cost dearly. They are only 250,000 altogether. Thanks to lack of education about family planning we are adding 250,000 babies every week if not every day to our burgeoning population, so why not let the Biharis who fought alongside our glorious army to save Pakistan, become Pakistanis in the proper sense? There is no reasonable answer. There cannot be one.

From what I have gathered listening to well-informed Pakistanis the implicit understanding is that since Bangladesh is a Muslim country the Biharis should seek Bangladeshi citizenship and try becoming a part of that nation –which would mean learning Bengali and assimilating into that culture. This is perfectly reasonable advice and the Biharis must consider it seriously.

But we don’t give a similar advice to the Kashmiri Muslims to seek a future within the Indian union. The reason ostensibly is that India is not a Muslim state and therefore the situation of Biharis is not comparable. Granted that is true, but what about Indian Muslims wanting to come to Pakistan? Well, they did not do that in 1947 and now it is too late. Moreover, they are 140 million and that is too many!

The only conclusion we can draw from such evasive gibberish is that the Muslims of South Asia do not have any automatic right to enter Pakistan as the Jews have to enter Israel under the so-called Law of Return. Is this consistent with the founding ideology of Pakistan, the two-nation theory?

When Iqbal in 1930 presented his idea of a Muslim state (confined only to north-western India, excluding the Muslims of Bengal and the Hindu-majority provinces) at the annual session of the All-India Muslim League in Allahabad the quorum of 70 members was not complete. Hafeez Jalladhari had to keep on reciting his ‘Shah Nama’ while the organisers frantically searched for individuals to fill the quorum so that the resolution could be passed.

Chowdhari Rahmat Ali coined the name PAKISTAN in 1933. His idea was dismissed as a student’s wild dream. That did not discourage Rahmat Ali who developed a whole range of pious names — Siddiqistan, Farooqistan, Hyderastan, Osmanistan and so on — for independent Muslim enclaves in Hindu majority areas. He even proposed a Guruistan for Sikhs and some name for a state for the Dravidian peoples of South India. The Muslim League leaders dismissed him as an eccentric and a charlatan and he in turn never forgave Jinnah for accepting a Pakistan consisting only of the north-eastern and north-western zones of India.

With the wisdom of the hindsight we can argue that Jinnah’s Pakistan was more realistic even though its realisation resulted in a huge loss of life and the biggest forced migration in history. Rahmat Ali’s scheme of mini Muslim states amid predominantly Hindu-majority regions would certainly have multiplied communal killings and magnified the scale of ethnic cleansing. Such a scheme would have surely hurt Muslims the most since they were surrounded by Hindu majorities.

That did not deter Rahmat Ali. He wrote letter after letter to conservative British lords pleading for their support and patronage for his idea of several Muslim states. Why he should have hoped for the support of arch imperialists is a mystery which has never been clarified. Some people allege that Rahmat Ali was in the pay of the colonial office which used him from time to time to say things that would keep Hindus and Muslims at loggerheads. However, there is no solid evidence to prove this.

Apart from East Punjab where ethnic cleansing was almost complete, several of the staunchest protagonists of the Pakistan demand, among them Raja Sahib Mahmudabad, Hasrat Mohani, Begum Aizaz Rasul, Nawab Mohammad Ismail Khan, Raja of Pirpur (author of the Pirpur Report of 1937) and Mohammad Asadullah of Assam, chose to stay in India. Some left for Pakistan later but others who had gone to Pakistan returned to India. Why? I don’t know, but it is something on which more research needs to be done. On the whole it was primarily the upper middle-class and the salariat that immigrated to Pakistan.

Pakistan came into being in those areas where Muslims were in a majority. Such areas did not need as much protection from Hindu Raj as those in which Muslims were in a minority. Most of them were converts from Dalit and other depressed sections of society. They needed more help than anyone else in coming to Pakistan, but they were advised to become good and loyal Indians. I am sure the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh also come from the poorest sections of society and therefore they too have no takers in Pakistan.

#147 gujjubania

I think we understand you very well. You are happy to blame others for EVERYTHING, and ready to take responsibility for NOTHING.

Don`t waste our time any further...

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#145 gujjubania

What connection is there between murder of indian soldiers by Pakistanis and indian muslims???? Did Aziz Premji torture indian soldiers? Did President Kalam sneak up on them and kill them???? Have your brains been completely removed by Ashok Singhal???

Your logic is totally bogus (and frankly disgusting!). When you add to it statements like: ``Every patriotic Indian MUST be anti-Pakistan.`` then we know you are a complete fanatic and nut-case.

Patriotic indians should support india. They should help it advance and keep it secure. They should worry about the welfare of indians and advance CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions. If India is attacked by jihadis or militaries they should help respond. All of this has NOTHING to do with hating or loving any country.

Over 10 million children are out of school in Bihar and Eastern UP. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION FOR THEM???? Or do you think they will learn to read and write by ``being anti-pakistani``???

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``#139 by harimau on November 2, 2003 7:41pm PT
Ref nooralain #137``


You are alway.. well-come madam. Because we are not Urs.... The chosen ones for 1400 years. The only torch bearers.

BTW

You cannot be anybody in Pakistan ...every one knows. Barring you and that idiot JAY, and yes also one from some god forsaken country call Male....

Urstru.... decides. Not you. Never you. You are 50% officially if you are muslim woman. 0% if you are not. Choose. And if you say so openly. Get killed.


There are 25 streets honouring Abus the Noble...100 buildings. 500 Murals ... There is a special festival in ....Your PM has decided the best in ...Has called Urs and Romair. They will honour Abdus... He will (Urs ) open a shop on 101 on pity. PM will humbly...

Hing loving Indoo, Jay never rails on him. He knows. What else any `man` in your forsaken country does. Rail on woman??? Sharia. Never. He will enforce...And what will you do?

Choose. Be pro-choice.

Yogiraj

PS

Always welllllllll come in Hind loving country. We have NOOO problem

I want all to analyse this conversation between Mush and Aziz

May 26 Tapes

The following is the Verbatim record of the full conversation between General Pervez Musharraf and Lt General Mohammed Aziz on May 26, 1999. The transcript was released during the External Affairs Minister`s Press Briefing on June 11, 1999 in New Delhi.

Pak end: Lt General Mohammed Aziz, Chief of General Staff

China end: General Pervez Musharraf, Chief of Army Staff

P: How is the visit going?

C: Yes, very well, Ok. And, what else is the news on that side?

P: Ham-dul-ullah. There is no change on the ground situation. They have started rocketing and straffing. That has been upgraded a little. It has happened yesterday also and today. Today high altitude bombing has been done.

C: On their side, in those positions?

P: In those positions, but in today`s bombing about three bombs landed on our side of the Line of control. No damage, Sir.

C: Is it quite a lot?

P: Sir, about 12-13 bombs were dropped, from which three fell on our side, which does not appear to be a result of inaccuracy. In my interpretation, it is a sort of giving of a message that if need be, we can do it on the other side as well. It is quite distance apart. Where the bombs have been dropped, they have tried to drop from a good position where they are in difficulty, from behind the LoC but they have fallen on our side of the LoC. So I have spoken to the Foreign Secretary and I have told him that he should make the appropriate noises about this in the Press.

C: They (Indians) should also be told.

P: That we have told, Foreign Secretary will also say and Rashid will also say. He will not, generally speaking, make any such mistake about those other bombs falling on the other side, our stand should be that all these bombs are falling on our side. We will not come into that situation. The guideline that they have given, we have stressed that we should say that this build-up and employment of air strike which has been done under the garb of....us (?), actually they are targetting our position on the LoC and our logistic build-up, these possibly they are taking under the garb having intention for operation the craft (?) Line of Control, and this need to be taken note of and we would retaliate in kind.... is what happened? So, the entire build-up we want to give this colour.

C: Absolutely OK. Yes, this is better. After that, has there been any talk with them? Any meetings etc?

P: Yeserday, again, in the evening.

C: Who all were there?

P: Actually, we insisted that a meeting should be held, because otherwise that friend of ours, the incumbent of my old chair, we thought lest he give some interpretation of his own, we should do something ourselves by going there.

C: Was he little disturbed. I heard that there was some trouble in Sialkot.

P: Yes, There was one in Daska. On this issue there was trouble. Yes, he was little disturbed about that but I told him that such small things keep happening...(?) and we can reply to such things in a better way.

C: Absolutely.

P: There is no such thing to worry.

C: So that briefing to Mian Seheb that we did, was the forum the same as where we had done previously? There, at Jamshed`s place?

P: No. In Mian Saheb`s office.

C: Oh I see. There. What was he saying?

P: From here we had gone -- Choudhary Zafar Saheb, Mehmood, myself & Tauqir. Because before going, Tauqir had spoken with his counterpart. We carried that tape with us.

C: So, what was he (Indian counterpart) saying?

P: That is very interesting. When you come, I will play it for you. Its focus was that these infiltrators, who are sitting here, they have your help and artillery support, without which they could not have come to J&K. This is not a very friendly act and it is against the spirit of the Lahore Declaration. Then Tauqir told him that if your boys tried to physically attack the Line of Control and go beyond it....and that the bombs were Planted on the Turtok bridge and the dead body received in the process was returned with military honours and I said, I thought that there wan good enough indication you would not enter into this type of misadventure, and all this build-up that you are doing

---

one or more brigade strength & 50-60 aircraft are being collected. These are excuses for undertaking some operations against the verious spaces, so I had put him on the defensive. Then he said the same old story. He would put three points again and again that they (militants) should not be supported, and without your support they Could not be there, they have sophisticated weapons and we will flush them out, we will not let them stay there. But this is not a friendly act.

C: So, did they talk of coming out and meeting somewhere?

P: No, No, they did not.

C: Was there some other talk of putting pressure on us?

P: No. He only said that they (militants) will be given suitable reception. This term he used. He said they will be flushed out, and everytime Tauqir said that please tell us some detail, detail about how many have gone into your area, what is happening there? Then I will ask the concerned people and then we will get back to you. So whenever he asked these details, he would say, we will talk about this when we meet, then I will give details. This means, they are possibly looking forward to the next round of talks, in which the two sides could meet. This could be the next round of talks between the two PMs which they are expecting it....Sir, very good thing, no Problem...

C: So, many times we had discussed, taken your (PM`s?...) blessings and yesterday also I told him that the door of discussion, dialogue must be kept open & rest, no change in ground situation.

P: So, no one was in a particularly disturbed, frame of mind.

C: Even your seat man?

P: Yes, he was disturbed. Also, Malik Saheb was disturbed, as they had been even earlier. Those two`s views were that the status quo & the present Postion of Gen Hassan (?) no change should be recommended in that. But he was also saying that any escalation after that should be regulated as there may be the danger of war. On this logic, we gave the suggestion that there was no such fear as the scruff (tooti) of their (militants) neck is in our hands, whenever you want, we could regulate it. Ch Zafar Saheb coped very well. He gave a very good presentation of our viewpoint. He said we had briefed the PM earlier & given an assessment. AFter this, we played the tape of Tauqir. Then he said that what we are seeing, that was our assessment, and those very stages of the military situation were being seen, which it would not be a problem for us to handle. Rest, it was for your guidance how to deal with the political & diplomatic aspects. We told him there is no reason of alarm & panic. Then he said that when I came to know seven days back, when Corps Commanders were told. The entire reason of the success of this oepration was this total secrecy. Our experience was that our earlier efforts failed because of lack of secrecy. So the top priority is to accord Confidentiality, to ensure our success. We should respect this and the advantage we have from this would give us a handle.

C: Rest (baki), is Mian Saheb Ok?

P: Ok. He was confident just like that but for the other two. Shamshad as usual was supporting. Today, for the last two hours the BBC has been Continuously reporting on the air strikes by India. Keep using this -- let them keep dropping bombs. As far as internationalisation is concerned, this is the fastest this has happened. You may have seen in the press about UN Secretary General Kofi Annan`s appeal that both countries should sit & talk.