Why is Santa Not a Woman?

harimau
Have you read C Rajagopalachari`s Tales for the Innocent?

Anyway, if you ask me, the way to improve matters is NOT dialogue on lines of

1. pre-DMK worldview was not as bad as DMK worldview wrt sharing with the lowest rung, Upanishadic Brahmins displayed more fairness in resource-sharing than power-drunk DMK atheists`

2. DMK worldview of Hindu vs atheist which defines `social justice and equitable resource-sharing` as being synonymous to `absolute power to DMK and exclusion of non-DMK ideology`

because both these worldviews have excluded sections of the population, Dalits being ruthlessly excluded by both. Neither worldviews has delivered equality.

The way forward is insisting that everyone must be viewed as equally Tamilian/equal Indian citizens. Ms Mayawati and Mr Laloo Yadav, Hindutva and Syed Shahabuddin types need to be forced to accept this principle in their politics too.

Ref rsridhar #220

[When i visited Madras many years ago, i wanted to go to Rameshwaram. I was advised not to. Reason? There was a class war going on in which 2 so called ``backward classes`` were rioting openly. Brahmins were not even involved. Go and figure.]

Oh, you must have asked the wrong person.

My brother wanted to drive South from Madras through the areas where the Thevars were fighting the Dalits. So he asked the then Commissioner of Police in Madras (a good personal friend) about the advisability of traveling in a disturbed area. My brother was told, ``You are a brahmin and both sides will recognize that you have no sides in this issue. So you will be shown all courtesies as you go through the area. They will wait for you to pass through and then resume their murderous ways with each other!``

What Soysauce cannot -- will not -- admit is that there was never a conflict between the brahmin landlords and their Dalit (Pallan/Parayan) agricultural workers that ended up in violence in centuries of such relationships. The land yielded plenty and while the landlord got the vast majority of the output, the workers and their families were taken care of in every way. They didn`t starve and the landlords would pay for the weddings in the worker`s families. Just as the landlord held the land in perpetuity, the worker held the right to farm that specific piece of land in perpetuity, passing it through generations. The social boundaries were there but the exploitation of labor never reached the cruel levels that you see today.

re:#219 by sadna
I do not think you understood what i was trying to say.
Two wrongs do not make a right. So, if the so called ``forward class`` did something bad in the past, it does not give license for the so called ``backward class`` to do another wrong to correct that imbalance.
That is what happened in T.N. If Soysauce and his ilk had really cared, the benefits would have accrued to all the so called ``backward classes``. This did not happen.
When i visited Madras many years ago, i wanted to go to Rameshwaram. I was advised not to. Reason? There was a class war going on in which 2 so called ``backward classes`` were rioting openly. Brahmins were not even involved. Go and figure.
Sridhar

rsridhar #218
Speaking my POV is self-righteous? yeah right. This is what soysauce also implied.

My posts were entirely about my OBSERVATIONS about goddess worship, not my BELIEFs in goddess worship. Noone can be let off from being honest about observations simply because of their beliefs as Muslims or atheists or Hindus.

Caste biases make even less sense here because some of the goddess worship traditions (if only someone was interested in discussing them)have in fact been vehicles for `backward class`/Dalit integration into the Hindu fold.

And re hypocrisy. I will grant you everything you and harimau say about hypocrisy and hatred fanned by DMK. I personally knew many `forward caste` Tamilians who had to migrate out of TN because of the severe discrimination they faced in jobs and education.

But the fundamental fact is that there was also longstanding hypocrisy of forward caste Hindus(my forefathers too), which is why there was a DMK or a BSP at all.

Less than 100 years ago, in Kerala, for instance, this hypocrisy was similar to that of Strom Thurmond. Namely, it was OK to sleep with the women at night, but by day a legal distance was forcibly imposed. Caste was a much-abused instrument of power of `upper` castes against lower castes in the traditional heirarchy much like it is now a much-abused instrument of the `lower` castes against some of their own, those above and below them in the heirarchy.

That those who fought this hypocrisy are now practising their own variety of hypocrisy is to be rued, and solutions to be found. They are not alone in abuse of power and demonization of opponents for votes. The Cong. abused power, the BJP abused power, the CPM abused power, the BSP abused power(the BSP`s ideology IS power). All demonize their opponents.

But that larger issue has nothing to do with the drama here. Exactly like it was arrogant of soysauce to imply I should not have replied to Farzana because he, soysauce said so, it is arrogant of you to expect I will maintain a personal vendetta against soysauce because you and harimau say so.

re:#213 by sadna
Sadna,
Your self-righteous streak is amusing.
When i pointed out to you that Soysauce is an atheist, your answer was:
``Being an atheist or nonatheist or being a Hindu or nonHindu should have nothing to do with honestly examining an issue, IMO.`` (post # 195).
You need to understand the mindset of DMK ideologues if you are to appreciate what i am talking about.
Yaksha in that conversation says: setting up of religious standards is hypocricy. Such logic is lost on DMK ideologues who actually have no standards when it comes to religion.
DMK politicians have reaped a rich harvest in the past thr` their belief in atheism.
You say why should we bother. I have no problem with atheism if it is one`s personal belief. When it becomes a party`s belief and when it is based on hatred against another community (brahmins in this case) and when all this is done to exploit the ignorant masses for votes, then it becomes very important to question that belief system.
Many years ago (during one of my Madras sojourns), i happened to see a T.V program in which the discussion was on religious symbols (much like the kind of discussion we are having here). Participants included a DMK partyman (unmistakable in his dress with a white towel over his shoulder), Cho Ramaswamy (a well known writer, political commentator and a brahmin) and some others. People were discussing if religious symbols were faith based or they are mere superstitions that somehow originated in the past. DMK guy was arguing in favor of the latter theory but was not convincing. The discussion went on for an hour. In the end, Cho concluded by saying that if everyone had started the program by breaking a coconut, they would not have had so much discussion!
We are not having a caste war here. If Soysauce says his atheism is personal and has nothing to do with DMK belief system, i will respect that. I, however, doubt if that is the case.
Sridhar

re:#205 by harimau
Agree with your post.
Sorry for the late response. I thought this thread was dead, so stopped checking it!
Sridhar

re:#205 by harimau
Harimou,
I am not too much into Tamil politics (you would have figured that one out by now!) but i do get a drift of it whenever i visit Madras.
Sometimes ago, i read a book by Kannadasan in Tamil wherein he explained how he became disgusted by the DMK ideology and how he renounced atheism to beocome a believer. One of the things that i still remember is that he said he found many prominent DMK politicians, after publicly stating that they were athiests, peformed ``Anga Pradakshinam`` in Thirupathi (for the uninitiated, Anga Pradakshinam is a way of circumambulating the deity). That showed the hypocricy of these politicians, he concluded in his book.
Sridhar

OK let me repeat
``It all boils down to this - you are not a Yaksha who can go around saying to people `answer my questions to my satisfaction or else you will be declared a hypocrite```


Re hypocrisy.
That the hypocrisy of `backward-caste` caste reformers/rebels has already/may eventually equal the hypocrisy of the `forward-caste` Hindus they rebelled against, is not surprising, given the basic premise that all men are equal, so all men are equally hypocritical.

And Yudhishthira knew this back then. He didnot know the solution, which is -hand over the world to women :).

Ref sadna #213

[It all boils down to this - you are not a Yaksha who can go around saying to people `answer my questions to my satisfaction or else`.]

There is no `or else`. Maasanamuthu alias Soysauce is now shown up for the hypocrite that he has always been.

[Sorry, maybe next birth :). ]

Sorry; no next birth for me. I plan to escape the cycle of re-incarnation having reached the highest possible state in this one ;-)

Ha ha ha!

harimau #212
Your question can have many answers such as DMK may be closet Muslims, Jews or Christians. Or theirs may not be a self-contained atheist belief system, it may be politics with Hindus as reference point. Or it could be a belief system defining itself as `not Hindu`. Sabki apni marzi. Whats the big deal?

It all boils down to this - you are not a Yaksha who can go around saying to people `answer my questions to my satisfaction or else`. Sorry, maybe next birth :).

Ref sadna #211

[Anyway here are excerpts from another couple or so of them which I liked:

The Yaksha asked,--`..What is pride, and what is hypocrisy?..`
Yudhishthira answered,--`..Stolid ignorance is pride. The setting up of a religious standard is hypocrisy...` ]

That is nice.

So how about the guy who professes to be an atheist who doesn`t answer the question ``as an atheist do you believe that only Siva, Rama and Krishna do not exist but are creations of Brahmins to rule over the public or do you believe that Allah and Jehovah are also frauds foisted on the unsuspecting public by control freaks named Muhammad and Jesus respectively?``?

Would he be a hypocrite in your or the yaksha`s eyes?

harimau #210
``I am actually quite comfortable with that idea since that would mean that I have to prove nothing to anybody. ``

Yup. Tamil Nadu state definitions of who is anybody can do everyone in.

Just fyi, since I mentioned it, the question goes:
The Yaksha asked,--`By what, O king, birth, behaviour, study, or learning doth a person become a Brahmana? Tell us with certitude!`

Yudhishthira answered,-`Listen, O Yaksha! It is neither birth, nor study, nor learning, that is the cause of Brahmanahood, without doubt, it is behaviour that constitutes it`

Then he goes on rather inconsistently(in my view)
`One`s behaviour should always be well-guarded, especially by a Brahmana. He who maintaineth his conduct unimpaired, is never impaired himself. Professors and pupils, in fact, all who study the scriptures, if addicted to wicked habits, are to be regarded as illiterate wretches. He only is learned who performeth his religious duties. He even that hath studied the four Vedas is to be regarded as a wicked wretch scarcely distinguishable from a Sudra (if his conduct be not correct). He only who performeth the Agnihotra and hath his senses under control, is called a Brahmana!`


Anyway here are excerpts from another couple or so of them which I liked:

The Yaksha asked,--`..What is pride, and what is hypocrisy?..`
Yudhishthira answered,--`..Stolid ignorance is pride. The setting up of a religious standard is hypocrisy...`

The Yaksha asked,-- `What is most wonderful? What is the path? ..`

Yudhishthira answered,-- Day after day countless creatures are going to the abode of Yama, yet those that remain behind believe themselves to be immortal. What can be more wonderful than this? Argument leads to no certain conclusion, the Srutis are different from one another; there is not even one Rishi whose opinion can be accepted by all; the truth about religion and duty is hid in caves: therefore, that alone is the path along which the great have trod...``


Somewhat more relevant to the subject here:

`The Yaksha asked: `What is weightier than the earth itself? (weighty as in sustaining)
Yudhishthira answered, `The mother is weightier than the earth.

The Yaksha asked,-- ``..Who is that friend bestowed on man by the gods?..`
Yudhishthira answered,-- `..the wife is the friend bestowed on man by the gods..`

Ref sadna #209

[My diagnosis of you is, in common with other busy-bodies who think God has sent them to abuse ahem moralize to other posters, you have too much time on your hands.]

At least I use my time to think.

[btw, one of the Yaksha Prashnas in the Mahabharata is about who is a brahmin. Do you know it?]

Nope. I have no interest in it. Maasanamuthu won`t buy it anyway. He is firmly into the belief that your station in life is fixed by your birth. I am actually quite comfortable with that idea since that would mean that I have to prove nothing to anybody.

harimau #208
My diagnosis of you is, in common with other busy-bodies who think God has sent them to abuse ahem moralize to other posters, you have too much time on your hands.

btw, one of the Yaksha Prashnas in the Mahabharata is about who is a brahmin. Do you know it?

Ref sadna #207

[harimau
Count me out of your caste/religious wars. The point I was arguing had nothing to do with anyone`s caste or religious biases.]

Your problem as I diagnosed it a year ago is that the minute someone claims to be a minority or an OBC you immediately start cringing. I on the other hand question their pretensions to an intellectual argument. To you, that smacks of a religious or caste war. I feel sorry for you. I suppose you are unaware of an upright posture, having been supine so long.

For instance, on Farzana Versey`s ``My SAARC Diary`` board, I challenged Soysauce with the following:

[Answer this question which of course your buddy K. Veeramani refused to answer: as an atheist do you believe that only Siva, Rama and Krishna do not exist but are creations of Brahmins to rule over the public or do you believe that Allah and Jehovah are also frauds foisted on the unsuspecting public by control freaks named Muhammad and Jesus respectively? Come on, tell us what you think. Others on Chowk have already challenged your intellectual honesty and this would be a great opportunity for you to prove that you have an iota of sincerity left in you.]

I suppose that qualifies as a religious war in your eyes.

Pathetic!

harimau
Count me out of your caste/religious wars. The point I was arguing had nothing to do with anyone`s caste or religious biases.