The Battered Body

rahul,

things get more complex.

in one case the girl married a real MCP + SOB (a close aqauintance, so i know), and she had a married sister over here. the only specific i know is about having to ``share`` cleaning of the bathrooms (like roomies). she was out of there in less than 6 months and out of marriage in a few more months.

yes, centrifugal forces in abroad are strong. in india, both would of gotten a lot of invited and un-invited counselling from family and friends.

jang:
``I dont know the real reasons..but guys claim that the girl ``used him`` to come to the US and then ditch him for a job or college.``
...it works both ways. In fact, marriages with ``imported`` husbands break down faster and more frequently than those with ``imported`` wives.

jang #74
I dont know enough to comment about your theory but I think two factors should be kept in mind when judging desi divorce rates in US-
a) The lack of support structures-not legal but social..that of family ,friends etc. If a girl is married to an MCP,there is noone that she can turn to for help,comfort or even a heart to heart talk etc.
b) Once you do come to US, the social stigma attached to a divorce are less and there is less pressure to continue in an abusive relationship.
Amit #73 80% of India lives in small towns and villages and the situation is worse than u can imagine.

After reading all the posts and ofcourse the article, i am quite bewildered. All i know is that NO WOMAN WANTS TO BE RAPED. RAPE IS AN OFFENCE. THE RAPIST SHOULD BE ACCORDINGLY PUNISHED.

It takes courage in our societies to go into a court and bring a case against a rapist, not only because of the physical and mental violation and pain but also owing to the ruthless and cruel methods used by the interrogators. Rape is not only physical, the sexually charged questions themselves in the court are a form of rape in themselves...

There are indeed women who may stoop low and use a ``false`` pretence of rape to get popularity or achieve whatever their goals are. But, then let us please not generalise. All women are not so devious. And like i said before, no woman wants to be raped. A call girl is as much entitled to sexual intercourse with consent as any other women. It is irrelevant as to the nature of her profession,as when a woman says NO, it is NO. If a call girl has been subjected to sex without her consent, it is never the less RAPE.

full stop.

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Yesterday,I read through a novel `Disclosure` by Chrichton. This is the story of a man who is sexually harassed by his female boss. Of course no one is willing to believe that a man can also be harassed sexually, but he comes out winner.

The author keeps making his point all through the story. Harassment (like rape) is about power and the abuse of it, and power is neither male nor female. It is just that men wield more power today, even in western societies.

You may want to go over this novel. The plot is nice as well, so you wont get bored with just an essay.

No one commented on the episode of the South African judge. Eventually, the `victim` backtracked and the judge was released. Although strange, it works both ways!!

since one talks out of experiences and not about norms:

There is a very high rate of divorces within first year of marriage among Indian Girls marrying well educated (indian) guys in the us. I dont know the real reasons..but guys claim that the girl ``used him`` to come to the US and then ditch him for a job or college. Some girls claim that their parents would allow them to go for a US college ONLY if they will get married. Fortunately there are no children. Girls (their families) sometimes claim that groom`s financial position was not what was calimed to be. There are thankfully support organizations (legal etc) for women. I dont know much how guys cope, I suspect they jsut work and drink.

I think the allegations from guys is true (that the girls are carpetbaggers) this is a great developtment, showing some determinatoin to balance out discrimination against them. Time and again I see large sums of money spent on mediocre boys ``prefessional`` education while above-average smart girls are told to do BA/BSc at a local govt college, and go to the Gym and Music class, while daddy and mum search for the groom.

too much incoherence... happy weekend folks.

Farzana,
Let`s agree to disagree. My views are based on interacting with Indian men all my life whether it was at high school in Delhi, IIT Delhi or in the US. But who knows, maybe I am wrong and perhaps, for whatever reason, the people I have interacted with are not representative enough. I am sure your views are based on your experiences and maybe you got to see something that I have missed. Let me end on a note of agreement, it is good to see that this scumbag Dhananjoy is going to the gallows.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow/803297.cms
Rapist to hang, Kalam rejects mercy plea

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 04, 2004 11:13:19 PM ]

NEW DELHI/KOLKATA: Dhananjoy Chatterjee, sentenced to death for raping and murdering 14-year-old Kolkata school girl Hetal Parekh in 1990, is set to face the gallows after President A P J Abdul Kalam rejected his mercy petition.

An official announcement on Wednesday said the clemency petition of 43-year-old Chatterjee has been rejected and the file concerned sent to the Union home ministry, to be communicated to the West Bengal government.

State law minister Nisith Adhikari said he was awaiting an official notification from the President`s office before an execution date could be finalised.

Official sources said Kalam decided late on Tuesday to reject the petition after holding discussions with legal experts, including attorney-general Milon Banerji. The President is not required to give any reasons for rejecting a mercy petition, sources said.

Amit because I read between the lines. I respect your decency but still do not agree with a desi men good generalization. A high divorce rate does not mean that the people involved are indecent. Similarly a low divorce rate does not mean that the relationships are perfect. Tolerance levels have changed over the years and not just in the west. Marriage does not mean taking your spouse for granted.

``Also, most people who make negative assertions about the ``real`` nature of Indian men, somehow only seem to know other people indulging in bad behavior``
Lets just say I was lost and am found :-) The ``real nature`` of men can encompass a wide variety of behaviour - I know my fair share of sinners and saints.

``even the president ending up in the Oval office with an intern under the table``
Boss our media does not focus on the personal life of politicians. If you think our politicians (PMs included) do not indulge in ``Clintononian`` pursuits then who am I to corrupt you.

I agree with Rahul and would suggest a rethink on generalizations. However feel free to disagree with everything I say.

#64 by veeresh on August 5, 2004 9:14pm PT
I saw a report on one of the news channels on sex tourism in Goa by the paedophiles. There were some chilling shots of a Gora man sauntering on the beach with a small male child- that is certainly sodomy.

yes, farzana, i think if you hope they`ll change their minds, it is a waste of time, but on the other hand at least some of them have been provoked into thinking beyond the square.
eisteinwallah, why is this girl a psycho in your language?from the books you put up for sale, you obviously know something about this. all inconvenient people do not need psychiatry. how do you know what preeti jain was thinking or hoping?how are you making these assumptions? she`s not pregnant, either, but i haven`t been following all the goss, so i don`t know what you read.
nikki,i know you think poorly of feminists, but why do you say indian women want to be paid for? i can`t change a tyre, but i earn enough to make someone else change it. and i don`t expect any man, not even my partner to pay my bills. why should this board be closed?

Amit #61
Have you really thought through your generalizations?
Talking about comparisons,Tell me, where is it the norm that a scantily clad girl is more likely to be eve teased/molested/even raped? And where is it the norm that ghar ka kaam is for aurat zaat and bahar ka kaam is for mard zaat? Husbands think it is dishonourable for wives to work because they themselves are lechers.And where is it the norm that education of the male child is more important than the girl child? And where is the woman blamed for a divorce, saying that ``woh to mard hai ..tumko to samajhna chahiye``? I can go on and on,and if you think , you will be able to find out for yourself. If a man ``allows`` his wife to work,he is considered progressive, but a married woman who works is considered aggressive and ambitious in a negative way.Coming to something more basic, tell me how would a normal Indian male feel about becoming a ghar jamai? Demeaning,right? And the bride is expected to go to paraye ghar and live in joint families.If she insists on going nuclear, she is said to be a home breaker.
Now lets talk about the low divorce rate in India.Is it because of the fact that men respect women more? This is preposterous. This ``respect`` is nothing but a veiled threat to conform to the prototype they have for woman.I would prefer if the divorce rate goes high.Even an unpatronising hatred is better than this patronising and condescending respect.
And women are equally responsible for this.They have to get out of the ``pati parmeshwar`` mentality and become emotionally and psychologically independent. They have to get out of their habit of compromising and tolerating even second wives to hold their exalted position as the one who is keeping the home and the relationship intact.They have to realise that this ``respect`` that you are talking about is nothing but an emotional and psychological ploy.
Till then men will keep taking them for granted.

Re:Subroto#65
I don`t know how you came up with ``Desi=good Gora=bad`` from the prior discussion. We are mature enough to recognize and appreciate the strong points of western civilization including their strong work ethic, their sense of discipline, their free-market economy, their scientific temper and most important, their open mind about other cultures/people.

However, that does not mean that we cannot criticize the rapid disintegration of their family structure. Even the people living in the West readily admit to that. This process started with the sexual revolution in the 60s and has been accelerated by a distorted ideology of liberalism where all morality has become relative with no absolute standards of right or wrong. The result is a 50% divorce rate and even the president ending up in the Oval office with an intern under the table.

If we desis are headed in the same direction, God help us. However, I don`t believe that is the case yet. Otherwise it wouldn`t be all hidden and under the table. Also, most people who make negative assertions about the ``real`` nature of Indian men, somehow only seem to know other people indulging in bad behavior. They themselves have nothing to talk about from their own individual experience. If it was that prevalant, how come we never hear of any first person accounts?

One talks about the exceptions rather than the norm (assuming there is something like a uniform norm followed by everyone) because they affect society. When one talks about rape I think it is redundant to assert that not all men are bad, some go to IITs, some work their ass off, some love their spouses and are kind to animals...I should assume that such men in fact exist. And the not innocent women are not always the ones who are looking for a bakra to further their careers and lives...I hold the firm view that some of our Bharatiya naaris and their equivalents in the subcon and perhaps other parts of the world are really the ones who have the men by their balls...therefore, the good vs bad argument often gets hazy.

veeresh:

Thanks for that wonderful story about the masjid for women.

Amit:
I avoid getting personal and my posts to you will bear that out; you are fortunate to have a wonderful relationship; there are people who do. However, your views on desis and mine are different.

``Take it easy``, you say...is this all such discussions are about? Someone hear used the terms ``shrills``. Well, the day we find people meeting half-way to understand each other we may not need to make our voices heard.

Having said this, I am happy to see more men interacting here.

Desi = good
Gora = bad

Then why are desi`s so desperate to stay with all these indecent people? Lets go home to Desiland where men are more wholesome and the women more pure...Mere Desh Ki Dharti and all that. This sort of ``I am so much purer and refined cos I am a desi`` makes me want to....dang there goes the carpet.
There will be good and bad everywhere irrespective of your nationality. As for the purity and wholesomeness you can find it wherever you open your mind. Those ``married for life and being a holy matyr`` days are getting over at home too.
Wholesome and pure - stayed in Delhi? The wonderful Delhi Ridge - much loved by ecologists and random hearts. And please certain activites occur across various economic levels (no middle class is the bestest and most moralest). Sowing their wild oats is a much tolerated activity. ``Ladka hai`` apparently sum it all up, unless ladki also decides to get into the act and then its a serious breach.
A lot of things gets brushed under the carpet in our culture - girl friends of Prime Ministers for example. So just because you don`t see them doesn`t mean they don`t exist.

Family structure? Well just because people divorce it doen`t make them bad parents.

The thing is while I respect and appreciate your decency I really can`t agree with the assertion ``Desi more decent``.