No Retreat

Someone wants to split the muslim community. 2 months ago a woman leading friday prayer in New York and now this stupidity in Lahore. And what will come tomorrow?
To stop or to be against the Marathon in Lahore is not an act of terrorism or fundamentalism! We have our own culture and our own values and we have to take care of them. If you want to ``improve`` your culture then there are many other better ways than to copy dirty stuff from another culture. We are muslims and should follow Quran and Hadith and not Bush & Co.

Re: # 152

Kyon sir khapaa rahee ho in ahmekon ke saath......inka deen-e-fasaad sabko pata hai!!

Re: # 152

You`re right...I did read monolithic as monotheistic. Hence, I used your comment in the wrong context, for which I apologize. Furthermore, I retract the comment I made earlier: Allah may not be the One (m’az Allah) you seek Jaza from.... Jazak Allah for your assistance in correction.

But looking at your argument again (”Islam shouldn’t be Monolithic (and it isn’t)”), it is still wrong.

Islam is ONE! Although Muslims have created several factions, in spite of Allah`s stern warnings against it. Nonetheless, the original tenets of One True Islam are still intact as per Allah`s promise to keep it so till the end of time.

It is also a WHOLE system, whether one likes to admit it or not. In either case, one should study the system before rendering it true or false. Most who argue against it have seldom, if ever, studied the system in its entirety, let alone studying it without preconceived bias against it.

Beyond the tremendous inherent flexibilities, Islam has to be RIGID primarily to maintain its true form. For example: Hajj is not compulsory on everyone - it is only for those who can afford it in terms of health and wealth. Zakat is more rigid as compared to Hajj. Fasting become even more compulsory than Zakat, but there still remain exceptions for Allah has NOT mandated it as a punishment. On to Salah, the exceptions are very few compared to previous three tenets. Finally, there`s NO Compromise on Shahadah - the first and basic tenet of Islam.

If any object or system is pushed beyond it`s inherent flexibility, it either breaks or recoils in a backlash to prevent deformation.

With the preceding principle in perspective, just as it is wrong to make it absolutely rigid beyond what Allah has ordained, it is equally wrong to invent more flexibilities in it. The pressure Islam and Muslims are experiencing, from within and without, to deform it from its original and most natural state, it is amassing a tremendous potential backlash against forces that wish to change it.

Thus, my persistent request to everyone to study the system before attempting to change it.

On second thought, I think the opponents of true Islam should exert more pressure on Islam and Muslims today. The sooner we witness the resurgence of True Islam, the better it will be for Muslims who believe in Allah comprehensively, i.e. NOT selectively when it suits their short term objectives :-)~~

Jazak Allah.

Re: # 151

Yaar Meray, Monolithic is not the same as Monotheistic. Perhaps you need to work on your English before asking my age. But if you must know, let`s just say that Abhi tou meiN Jawan hooN.

Jazakallah

Re: # 150

To the contrary, I did not misunderstand you, and your English is not where the fault lies.

Anyway, I’m not trying to patronize you, but may I ask your age?

I mean, you start out with:
[I am arguing that people should not be forced to follow rules that are not of their own choosing.]

and end with:
…I will pay you more to keep your stupid beliefs inside your pants.

It’s strange, isn’t it? Why do you offer ``payment`` (read force) to others NOT to follow their chosen rule? Are you denying them the right that you vehemently assert everyone should have?

Khair...out of respect for your effort to type the confused message, I think you deserve the following:

The hypocrisy of Pakistani Mullahs and general Muslims notwithstanding, Islam remains the same that started with Adam (pbuh) and it will remain the only viable system till the end of time, i.e. if mankind wishes to coexist with other inhabitants peacefully.

Here’s why:
By virtue of its nature, time will continue to change. As the times passes on, the mankind develops new and improves existing technology. However, he himself remains constant. He always had, still does, and forever will, possess the same composite behavior of emotions, needs, and wants in EVERY society across the board…even if he established colonies on other planets.

Since Islam deals with human attributes as mentioned above, it does not need to change with time. To claim otherwise demonstrates a defeatist mindset of a person who refuses to improve his/her knowledge.

In other words, time is only a tool to measure how many times the earth has gone around the sun and how many times it has spun on its axis, and Islam is about how mankind should live together to ensure peace, prosperity, and success for everyone as individuals and communities. But to understand that you’d have to study the Quran, then study lives of the Prophets (peace be upon them), especially Mohammad (pbuh)... not just read or hear it here and there and believe whatever without any filtering.

One cannot become a better Muslim by surrendering to the growing demand to modify it. A person becomes a Muslim through practice, which is only possible with knowledge, and knowledge is gained through research and study - not just heresay and tabloids. That is, if you wish to be a Muslim. Otherwise, you can define whatever you want to be, but do not say that it`s Islam, because you`d be emulating the Mullahs you detest.

Finally, I would reciprocate your Jazak Allah equally, but your statement ”Islam shouldn’t be Monolithic (and it isn’t)”, Allah may not be the One (m’az Allah) you seek Jaza from, and I’m not aware of any other that could offer such rewards.

So, Ciao should suffice for now.

Re: # 149

NTSyed… No Yaar, you misunderstood me. May be it is my English because I didn’t go to Oxford like you guys did. I am not forcing my views down anyone’s throats, it in fact is to the contrary. I am arguing that people should not be forced to follow rules that are not of their own choosing. You should read today’s Op-Ed piece in the NYTimes by Tom Friedman in which he talks about Traditionalists vs. Rationalists – in the context of suicide bombings (right when done against Jews, but not when done against Muslims in Iraq). So you see, people generally tend to analyze contemporary issues in contemporary light. Islam shouldn’t be Monolithic (and it isn’t). Saying that it is a complete way of life is (don’t mind me saying) a load of bull. What is applicable in some parts of the world at certain time in age is not applicable universally at all times. Lemme give you an example, Prophet Mohammad Salawala Wasalam married a 6 year old girl. That might have made some (if any at all) sense back then, but if someone tried doing that today will be booked on statutory rape charges along with pedophilia. So does Islam apply to all times? No. Yes, only if it changes with time.

You see, Pakistanis are lingering on to this “Islam” crap (again don’t take it literal, my literal friend) because there’s nothing else going for them. What Islam do they talk about? In Pakistani Islam, Ahmadis can be put in jail for saying SalamOLakum to someone, in Darfur they are rapped and murdered because they are African, in Wahabi Islam one must have an extra body part (of any size) to be able to get a driver’s license. So you tell me when you say Islam, which Islam are you talking about? Taliban’s? Saudi’s? Pakistani’s? Sofi’s? Salafis?

Then there is this stupid argument of “Islam is good, Muslim are bad”. OK. I will buy that. Muslim are not only bad, but worse than bad. Especially Pakistani Muslims. Lemme give you another example. How everyone knows how rampant Londay Bazi is in Pakistan. Do you ever hear any Molvi talk about that? Do you see protests in the street against Londay Bazi? They will jump up and down about female competing in a road race, but god forbid they talk about ills that are inflicted on our society. What was the outcome of the Gang Rape of MukhtaraN Mai? Nada! But an actresses kisses a movie actor and they think that it is the end of the world.

Bhai meray, if you don’t want to run, don’t run. I will pay you money not to run, and I will pay you more to keep your stupid beliefs inside your pants. I don’t need to look into my scripture every morning to decide what Tie to wear. Shoes may be, because I am partial to Ferragamo. That’s religious for me.

Jazak Allah

I think what Monsieur Kulharee is saying that he doesn`t believe in Islam, or that at least it`s not for this century anymore. Thus his comments are formed accordingly. By that measure he is a liberal who believes ``that what my daughter or any other woman does with her self is none of my business``. However, what I find ironic in his interacts is that he continues to shove his ideas, opinions, beliefs down others` throat whilst forcing them NOT to exactly that.

No offense Monsieur K, but such contradiction may cause the proverbial kulharee to fall on your own foot.

Dear K, religion is not just a set of rituals. It is a complete way of life. The west with its defunct theories of separation of church & state, and then civil & military lives is at loss for solutions to provide a wholesome healthy lifestyle for its current & younger generations. It is against human nature to prevent different aspects of one`s life from overlap. They always have, do and will overlap each other. Unfortunately, just like goats, we`re following the defunct route to the glitter which may or may not be gold. Please think about it calmly before responding compulsively to my post.

Furthermore, Muslim men like me only try to tell other Muslims - not just women - what Allah - not man - has ordained for all of us when we notice contradiction. What they do thence is entirely up to them. If the community feels threatened, then it will take whatever action it deems appropriate to avert the threat.

Pakistani culture is strongly based on Islam, although the cultural diffusion with non-Muslims of the sub-continent, politics, and ignorance have corrupted this Islamic ``way of life``. But legalizing the corruption, or introducing new corruptions, are not practical methods to correct them. Case in point: The end of the prohibition on alcohol in the USA was has more harm than the revenue and freedom it has generated.

There has to be something better - not just ````newer`` - to replace the older system. Unfortunately, all other systems except True 7th century Islam have either failed or failing miserably. The GDPs and other economic aspects, the freedom to walk around partially or completely naked doesn`t describe the overall state of a culture. Pakistan has a lot of problems, but should the current culture be replaced by western culture which has just as many problems if not more?

Whenever one seeks to replace something, anything, one looks at other things that seem better. Then performs a gap analysis to see whether it`s worth replacing the older thing or not. Same applies to Pakistani culture. We all acknowledge the problem, but we have to study the available solutions before we implement them. Applying western service packs and patches to the eastern system will only cause conflict and crash the system. Let`s just hope this approach does not cause irreparable damage before its too late.

Re: # 147

Stinger Ji, and Qissa Ji.. Please dont think that I think that you both are very dense, but I have been saying all along that what my daughter or any other woman does with her self is none of my business. You in your thick beliefs might think that girls are not capable for deciding for themselves, I don`t happen to think that that is the case. You wana lock your girls in chains, do so by all means, but don`t try pulling that trick to girls who may not want to be treated like a goat. And good luck to you both.

Jazakallah.

Re: # 146
Qissa jee I agree with you, there are certain issue`s for which we are not ready yet but i wanna ask ``Kulharee`` jee that will he love to see his daughter acting in movie HELLO...
will he allow her daughter to shake her body HELLO.... or will he do that by own self for the sake of booty. You mentioned about indian movies watched at every home i just wanna tell u that we will always love to see eroticism but we will shy in doing the same act. The bunch of new star`s who are in Indian movie what u call them Slut ... Play Boy ...or what i leave this for u ?

Kulharee:

The next time you write an ilog...please do come after when you go through the meaning of `culture`` and ``religion`` and the difference between the two. You`re algerians nigerians ..whatever``arian`` think different because their `culture` is different than ours!!

As far as movies are concerned .... we`re ready for movies because we`ve been watching movies from generation after generations ..... 30`s 40`s 50`s so on and so forth ...we`ve been through changes ..from time to time there..... thats the reason why i said ...that this marathon thing would take time as this is new here .... one more thing that supports movie culture is teh fact that dance and drama have always been a part of our culture which was infact connected with the hindus ... and many related things are being followed here as well .

Please do read my logs carefully..when i said about that Hajj thing that ``thats debatable`` ...right?

Re: # 144

Qissa Ji. So where do you think that our Punjabi Movie actresses come from? Don’t they shake their big fat ass on the screen for the whole world to see? If that’s acceptable, what’s harm in women athletes running? I think just as Pakistani Islam is a deceitful and phony religion, its followers are also living in contradiction. Indian Movies are not played in theaters, but every household watches it. Hello?

Literal interpretation of a centuries old book does not provide answers that are applicable to today’s issues. Don’t tell me that Turks and Algerians female athletes are not abiding by Islam by running in shorts (or plain running). May be they are not abiding by Pakistani Islam. While you yourself say that men and women walk together during Hajj, what’s wrong with them running together? And this dress code thing. That’s a total garbage. A month ago, a woman in Virginia lead a Juma prayer. Be prepared to watch it coming in a theater new you. And I hope soon enough.

Lastly, if you don’t want to run or compete in any athletic events, no one is holding gun to your head. Don’t tell other what they can and can’t do.

kulharee:

First up, i am not deprieveing women of anything ...if women love watching beach volley ball etc they are allowed to play it but under a certain procedure, costumes and all that. No harm in marathon only for ladies ..... if it were`nt so ..why it was necessary for ALlah to bring the dress codes .... forget about the dress code....take a very small example... let`s suppose we call Prophet(PBUH) to come and attend a mix marathon ...with women not in propes dress code/ ...... what would be his reaction? .... i mean ..... with due respect ...come to think of it ???? ...

Secondly, Hajj is a social act as well ... one of the main purpose of doing hajj is to meet other muslims who have come to perform it ...islam covers the whole life...religion and social life are not apart ..they are interrelated. I bring ``reason`` and i like reasoning ...i can prove to you that 5 pillars arn`t just a religious act ..they are much bigger and deeper in their meaning .... atleast my iman says this.

Thirdly, if a girl from your village marry (court marriage) ...lets see how many people (men) in your home town oppose it or take it ...... yes ``cultural values`` are strong in pakistan ...... i am nott saying that they are always rightt ...but they persist and it will take time ....

Fourthly, by `we` mean ;the people, if not your home town ...my town...i myself am a girl and i oppose it


The debate can go on for long .... anyways, don`t get pissed of ... difference of opinion will always be there.

language please!

Re: # 142

Qissa yaar, when you say “we” are not ready, who are included in this “we”? I am from a village near Sargodha, and trust me “we” who live there are very ready. Women in my village were glued to TV during Athens Olympics, and their favorite sport to watch were gymnastics and beach volley ball.

Now what you guys are doing is talking thru both sides of your mouth (in literature it is called talking thru one’s ass). On the one hand you are giving example of Hajj (which is a religious custom) on the other hand you are arguing that we are not ready because it is foreign to our culture. Which one is it? Islam or Culture? Or both? I will tell you it is neither. Because there are at least 20 Marathons in the Islamic world, so please don’t tell me that Turks or Algerians are any less Muslim than Pakistanis. What we have here is a Wahabi inspired gang of thugs who want to keep women chained behind closed doors.

I hope next time when you use the term “we”, you also include those who do want to participate in sports activities (more precisely women). Because if you don’t then the whole world will pass you by so fast, like a 4 minute mile.

If you are interested to know, I will Inshallah be running this year NYC Marathon (I will find out if my name is picked out of lottery on June 25th). Trust me, my culture (Punjabi) or me being a male does not make me any different from anyone else. I pray to Allah that my Iman is not shattered by females who will run alongside me. I think my Iman is strong enough to withstand watching a pair of boobs or bare legs not as sexual objects.

Jazak Allah.

Kulharee:
We`re indeed not ready for such kind of events:

1. We can still debate on this from the fact that IN HAJJ, both Men and Women walk along with each other and perform Hajj together, they walk together for hours , some of them even run, but the only difference is that in Hajj, Women have covered themselves the way its required, so if THIS has been allowed in Hajj, why not anywhere else? ........We can debate on this that if Women cover themselves, they should be allowed, but round in pakistan, cultural values are as strong as our religious values.

2. Women are finding it hard to make their way in already other exsisting sports like , (e.g, cricket,hockey,tennis,football,table-tennis,badminton etc). Even Men are not pushed into sports by their families and overall persisting culture(except cricket etc). The reason being they put an emphasis on Education and making a career.The other thing is that Sports is not taken the way its taken in western countries,theres a lot of money involved etc.

3. In our culture, people don`t mix up that often, you`re taking a middle-class people on the roads and asking them to run with women, maybe you arn`t familiar that if you`re a woman and walk on the streets or market places, men would come from nowhere would pinch you and touch you and would suddenly disappear.Our woman are innocent,they`re not exposed much, this won`t be a healthy thing `yet`/.

4. Moreover, I mean connect the `idea of marathon` with western life-styles and ours, western women work day & night. They do jobs etc.They go to their offices alone and come back by covering long distances etc, they`re more active and confident than ours, Our women can`t run a Marathon in the same spirit, no doubt that exercise is best for them but am afraid this may do harm as well.

If they had organised it in big cities, that is debatable, but sargodha/guranwala, give us a break!

And yes, we`re not ready for it.

Re: # 140

Qissa Kahani, the purpose of running a Marathon is to do it outside of stadiums, for the whole world to see, and go through unexpected course for running. Remember how first Marathon was run in Olympia? What you are saying is like saying that American cup yacht racing should be held in a bathtub.

If some Pakistanis are not yet “ready” for this such a big “shock”, it is their loss.

Not against marathon or even a mixed marathon but!

Marathon races have never been organised frequently in Pakistan, even if the Government insisted on arranging a marathon for everyone,atleast they should`ve taken everybody into confidence and should`ve prepared people mentally for that event.
In Pakistan, ``Trying Something NEW`` takes time. It was a blast. I mean, if ``Marathon`` means covering long distances (covering certain miles in certain time period ) than we`ve got a huge stadium in Islamabad ( and one more i guess in Lhr or khi ) why not take the participants to those stadiums and let them take part in it rather arranging it on the ``Roads`` and that too in guranwala or whatever. Whats with taking them specially on ``roads``. Pakistani traffic is too rough and dangerous, its always better to race& run in stadiums!
This is not France, this is Pakistan.It still goes opposite to our culture . Time changes, so does culture, when the time is right, sure why not.

There is a way of doing things, if you can`t do it properly ,let it be any work, thn, don`t do it, simple?,

Govt. should be made responsible for those attacks.As far as MMA is concerned,a bunch of losers,they`ve been around for 50 yrs, they`re not new