Withdrawing from Iraq (Part II): Considering Options

#116, viewers on here, the Palestine/Israel question is very simple, and it is viewed as very simple by leading historians. I gave reference of Oxford historian, Jew, Avi Shlaim, of Israeli right wing historian Benny Morris, of Oxford historian, Albert Hourani- these are authorities in the field, unlike the right wing terrorist group of Kahane in New York. Ignoring all this, our apologist for Israel denies the existance of Palestine and the Palestinian Arabs- not only is this nonsense, it is absurd.

In the 1948 war that Israel won, and Israel had numerical superiority in the field of battle contrary to popular mythology of the little David beating the big Goliath, it expelled over 700,000 indigeneous Arabs of palestine from that area. The UN partition mandate of 1947 gave the implanted Israeli entity 55% of historical Palestine even though their population was third of the population of the region and most were immigrants from outside. Now, after siding with Britain and attacking Egypt in 1956- a preemptive aggressive war, it preemtively attacked the Arabs in 1967 and captured the rest of the 45% of historical Palestine that was given by the UN to the Palestinian Arabs. In Oslo in 1993, the Palestinian leadership told Israel that they will accept that it keep instead of 55%, 78% of historical palestine and let them have 22% out of the 45% that they were given by the UN. Israel has refused and doesnt want peace, simple as that.

The UN resolution 242, asks as POINT NUMBER 1, for Israel to give back the territories it captured in 1967. Israel refuses that. After POINT NUMBER 1 is fulfilled, the UN asks ALL of the neighbouring countries including Israel to recognize the soverignity of the others.

In Palestine, (a historical entity under both the Ottomans and the British, that had indigeneous Palestinian Arabs living there for centuries, over 13 centuries- the vast majority of them), we have a simple case of an occupying FORCE and an occupied people. The cause of the conflict is the occupation, the Israelis dont want to get rid of the cause but they want to get rid of the effect, i.e. the Palestinian liberation struggle. That is not possible and morally reprehensible because what that means is that they want to continue the occupation and also want the Palestinians to be happy in their impoverished and subjugated state. I reject that, the Palestinians reject that and ALL people of conscience in the world regardless of religion, and nationality ALSO reject that. We see the empirical proof of this in the UN voting on resolutions against the Israeli oppression. Except for the US and Israel and a couple of island states, no one sides with the Israelis in their oppression of the Palestinians. This is the simple case which is being deliberately clouded and masked by the supporters of colonialism and US hegemony like behram 1.

# 115 masadi: But you are the leftist and you must answer some of the questions. I know that uou will fail with a big F, but at least try your stupid theory.

[Great going behram, you revealed yourself] No, it is you who has been revealed. You have been after facts, and here is one fact that was googled and you can not provide answers. Your shenanigans are so clear. Typical of how you were taught to behave by those who are liars, tricksters, and deceivers.

#113, you all will remember a while back I mentioned that the ``source`` that behram1 is using are right wing Zionist websites, and now he reveals his particulars. The Kahane group is the militant terrorist group that is famous for Baruch Goldstein the terrorist who went into the Aqsa mosque and like a coward opened fire on the worshippers. Great going behram, you revealed yourself

#113 great ``Fox News`` tactics, confuse people with non-issues and distractions, so that the truth which is very simple is clouded. I wont fall for this nonsense.

109 masadi: [.. if you want trivia answered, do a google on them and get your answers,} And this what I find...

PALESTINE THE COUNTRY???

If you are so sure that Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country:

· When was it founded and by whom?
· What were its borders?
· What was its capital?
· What were its major cities?
· What constituted the basis of its economy?
· What was its form of government?
· Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
· Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
· What was the language of the country of Palestine?
· What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
· What was the name of its currency?

· Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese Yuan on that date.

· And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

· If you are lamenting the low sinking of a once proud nation, please tell me, when exactly was that nation proud and what was it so proud of?

· And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call Palestinians are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day Palestinians to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history will not work here.

The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy.

For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it the Palestinian people and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the West Bank and Gaza, respectively?

http://jdl.org.il/palestine_the_country.htm

#110, what happened to Palestine is well known, it was stolen by force from its indigeneous inhabitants first by colonial decree and then by the state of Israel.

#110, colonial division could have similarly divided India, that does not make it right. There was a legal entity with legal tender described as Palestine both during the Ottoman era and the British era, described as such by the Balfour Declaration that gave concrete birth to the Zionist aspirations. You pick and choose what you want for your skewed definitions. All tricks by the imperialists and their supporters

109 masadi: Your absurdity knows no bounds. You have railed against nation states which is generally accepted definition of a country. A country that is reconized as an independent entity, and not some subset form of a provincial government. Palestine might have been a provincial entity, but never a sovereign country.

[What does a leader have to do with a territory?] What happened to that territory that you call Palestine? What it got gobbled up into the Ottoman empire?

[You definition of country is totally skewed.] Actually, it is you who have a screwed up definition of a country.

[You mean to tell me when the British ruled over India, and recognized it as a territory and established the ``East INDIA Company``, just because India didnt have an indigeneous ruler under the British, there was no India and there were no Indians?] No, you idiot, Palestine`s situation is different than India`s. When the Ottoman empire was finished, there were swaths of land that were available and were made countries. Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Trans-Jordan, etc. Now these became the countries that were recognized as sovereign. Palestinians got stuck in this with the Israelis.

[Your absurdities know no bounds.] It is you who is absurd.

[It is all a part of the colonial mindset, deny the existance of a land and its people and you can rule it forever, that is what is going on in Palestine.] It is your bipolar mind that is just stuck. There has never been a Palestinian country.


[I`m not here for you entertainment.] You are an entertainer with this stupidity that you have been showing whichever site you show up. It is the US elite, it is colonial power, it is the bureaucrats, it everyone except you and people like you.


[Who the philistines were is immaterial, ] No, it is not. And that is the crux of the issue.

[.. the fact is that the Arab Palestinians have been there for over 1300 years,] They never were a sovereign country. THERE NEVER WAS A STATE CALLED PALESTINE.

#107, #108, I have proved to you in ample posts that there was a recognized legal entity both during the British and Ottoman times called Palestine, it had legal tender as money taht survives to this day, it had a defined geography, had people living there who identified themselves as falasteeney, but somehow you don`t get it. What does a leader have to do with a territory? You definition of country is totally skewed. You mean to tell me when the British ruled over India, and recognized it as a territory and established the ``East INDIA Company``, just because India didnt have an indigeneous ruler under the British, there was no India and there were no Indians? and all that was the invention of Gandhi. Your absurdities know no bounds. It is all a part of the colonial mindset, deny the existance of a land and its people and you can rule it forever, that is what is going on in Palestine. Kulharee if you want trivia answered, do a google on them and get your answers, I`m not here for you entertainment. Who the philistines were is immaterial, the fact is that the Arab Palestinians have been there for over 1300 years, they were the ones with deep roots there not the European Jews, the Zionists who in their racist attituted displaced them.

masadi: Here is another stupid brother of yours in Iran. This one is a civil engineer and has rocks inside his concrete skull just like you.

http://dawn.com/2005/12/09/top10.htm

Iranian president wants Israel moved to Europe

TEHRAN, Dec 8: Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday suggested that Israel be moved to Europe and expressed doubt that the Holocaust occurred. His comments, reported by Iran’s official IRNA news agency from a news conference he gave in Makkah, follow his call in October for Israel to be ‘wiped off the map’, which sparked widespread international condemnation.

“Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail,” IRNA quoted Mr Ahmadinejad as saying.

“Although we don’t accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?” he said.

“If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe — like in Germany, Austria or other countries — to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it.”

“Why do they insist on imposing themselves on other powers and creating a tumour so there is always tension and conflict?”

Mr Ahmadinejad’s remarks drew swift rebukes from Israel, the US and Germany.

“This is not the first time, unfortunately, that the Iranian president has expressed the most outrageous ideas concerning Jews and Israel,” said Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Mark Regev. “He is not just Israel’s problem. He is a worry for the entire international community,” he added.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said: “It just further underscores our concerns about the regime in Iran and it’s all the more reason why it’s so important that the regime not have the ability to develop nuclear weapons.”

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said the EU’s nuclear diplomacy is ‘not made easier by the fact that Mr Ahmadinejad comes up with new ideas, that the people of Israel could move to Germany and Austria, to resolve the ME problem’.—Reuters/AFP

Re: # 105

Asadi Sahib.. for the benefits of those who are not as versed in History as you Dear sir, please tell us the following in straight, simple and easy to understand terms:

- What is the origin of the word “Palestine”?
- Who were Philistine?
- Who was the first leader of sovereign legal Palestine?

I am sure by now you must have heard Ahmadinijad’s address to the OIC in Mecca. By any chance do you agree with him? Do you also deny Holocaust?

#105 masadi: You have a concrete skull, and you are bipolar. The fact is that THERE NEVER WAS A COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE.

Gosh...your stupidity shows no limits. How stupid ARE you?

[I back my assertions up with facts.] You have no facts but nonsensical rhetoric. You are a liar and a trickster and a deceiver. The only fact is that THERE NEVER WAS A COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE. And that is the fact.

You are delusional in your thoughts. Today`s world knows more than ever that Palestinian terrorism promoted by Yasser Arafat`s policies are the root cause of terrorism in the middle east, and they have started taking action.

You wear dirty clothes. You are mostly in your pajamas, that is at least 6 inches above your ankles. You sit on your feet on the toilet bowl. And you do not brush your teeth. You use misvak. You use two towels to dry yourself when you bathe. And you are ugly.

Look at all the site that you show up.

No one else participates because you are like a crazy person talking rubbish. This site is the prime example. Your views and your opinions are completely rejected.

#104, you speak without proof or facts, I back my assertions up with facts. Also behram1, repeating falsehood, supplemented with insults like ``Abaye olloo...`` does not convert the falsehood into truth. A country is defined by 1. geographic boundary 2. legal status 3. recognized as such by neighbouring territories; in the Ottoman era all 3 defined Palestine. Your sense of history starts with the UN which POST dates Palestine.

#103 masadi: Abaye olloo...
There was never, ever.... a country called Palestine. Your bipolar brains should get it.