Beating The Retreat
Veeresh Malik January 27, 2006
#44 Posted by MantoLives on February 3, 2006 4:09:24 am
Here is the view of an Indian who has actually been to Pakistan...
Friday, February 03, 2006
VIEW: Pakistan, Islam and Indian media stereotypes —Yoginder Sikand
“[T]he limited support that radical Islamist groups enjoy in Pakistan reflects less a fierce commitment to their ultimate agenda of strict Islamist rule than a protest against the system which, ironically, has abetted such groups for its own purposes”
Contrary to Indian media representations, the average Pakistani is just about as religious or otherwise as the average Indian. The average Pakistani is certainly not the wild-eyed fanatic baying for non-Muslim blood or waging violent jihad to establish global Islamic hegemony that our media would have us believe. Like the average Indian, he is emotionally attached to and culturally rooted in his religion, but he does not wear it on his sleeve; nor does it dictate every thought or act of his. In fact, the thing that first strikes the Indian visitor to Pakistan is how almost identical the average Pakistani is, looks and behaves to the average north Indian.
Almost all the many people I met in the course of a recent month-long visit to Pakistan that took me to several places in Punjab and Sindh do not even remotely fit the description of the average Pakistani peddled by our media. Islamist radical groups undeniably do have an important presence in parts of Pakistan, but they certainly do not command widespread popular support all over the country. This explains the continual dismal performance of religious parties in every Pakistani election. Despite concerted efforts by Islamist and mullah-based parties to establish a theocracy in the country, Pakistani politics are not dominated by religion as much as by economic, ethnic and regional concerns. It is, therefore, crucial not to exaggerate the influence of radical religious outfits in Pakistan, as the Indian media generally does.
Indian media descriptions of Pakistan tend to portray Islam in the country as a seamless monolith. The variety of local expressions of Islam are consistently overlooked so as to reinforce the image of a single version of Islam that is defined by the most radical of Islamist groups. The fact, however, is, that most Punjabis and Sindhis, that is to say a majority of Pakistanis, ascribe to or are associated with the sufi traditions which are anathema for such Islamists. Popular sufism is deeply-rooted in Pakistani soil and provides a strong counter to radical Islamist groups and their exclusivist agenda. Many sufis were folk heroes, radicals in their own right, bitterly critiquing tyrannical rulers as well as Muslim and Hindu priests. This is why they exercised a powerful influence on the masses, irrespective of religion. This explains, in part, why Islamist radicals are so fiercely opposed to the traditions that have developed over the centuries around such figures.
The popular sufi tradition in large parts of Pakistan thus limits the appeal of radical Islamists, making the chances of an Islamist takeover of the country a remote possibility. In recent years, it is true, these groups have gained particular salience and strength, but this is said to be less a reflection of a growing popular commitment to the Islamist cause than to other factors. One of these is the role of the state. Although the ideological founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, envisaged Pakistan as a secular Muslim state, successive Pakistani governments have used Islam to bolster their own frail support base, exactly in the same manner as the Congress and the BJP have done with Hinduism in the Indian case. Islam has also been used to weld together a number of the country’s ethnic groups that have little in common other than their profession of Islam, in the same way in which advocates of both ‘soft’ Hindutva, such as the Congress, and ‘hard’ Hindutva, such as the BJP, have sought to invoke Brahminical Hinduism to define the Indian nation state. Hindutva ideologues propagate a form of Hindu ‘nationalism’ that has no space for Indians of other faiths, and is, in fact, based on an unrelenting hatred of non-Hindu ‘others’. Creating a Hindu identity in this fashion is predicated on excising all elements of culture and tradition that Hindus are seen to share with others. The same has happened in the case of official and radical versions of Islam in Pakistan. Yet, it is important to remember that this is not the only, and certainly not the dominant, form of Islam in Pakistan, as my interaction with numerous Pakistanis from different walks of life revealed to me.
“Radical Islamist groups are not a true reflection or representative of Pakistani Islam”, a social activist friend of mine from Sindh explains. “State manipulation of religion”, he argues, “has had a major role to play in promoting radical Islamism in Pakistan”, which, he says, “is largely an expression of elite politics and Western imperialist manipulation”. “To add to state patronage of such groups”, he points out, “there is the fact of mounting economic and social inequalities, sustained military rule, the continued stranglehold of feudal lords and the absence of mechanisms for expressing democratic dissent, all of which have enabled radical Islamist groups to assert the claim of representing normative Islam against other competing versions and visions of the faith.”
In some parts of Pakistan, such as Baluchistan and the North-West Frontier Province, he says, electoral support for Islamists “reflects anti-American sentiments rather than popular demands for theocratic rule”. Such groups, he says, have gained added strength from the ongoing conflict in Kashmir by “tapping into Pakistani nationalist sentiments on this issue in the same way as Hindutva groups used the Kashmir conflict in India, both seeking to present the issue in religious terms”. “In short”, he claims, “the limited support that radical Islamist groups enjoy in Pakistan reflects less a fierce commitment to their ultimate agenda of strict Islamist rule than a protest against the system which, ironically, has abetted such groups for its own purposes”.
“The task before Indians and Pakistanis seriously concerned about the future of our common subcontinent”, says another friend of mine, a journalist from Lahore, “is to rescue our religious traditions from the monopolistic claims of the radicals. Islamism in Pakistan and Hindutva in India feed on each other while claiming to be vociferous foes. We need to revive popular forms of religion, such as sufism and bhakti, that are accepting of other faiths and that at the same time are socially engaged and critique the system of domination that produces radicalism as a reaction while at the same time using it as a means of stifling challenges to it.”
The writer is post-doctoral fellow at the International Institute for the Study of Islam in the Modern World, Leiden. He also edits a web-magazine called Qalandar, which can be accessed at www.islaminterfaith.org
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 02 03 story_3-2-2006_pg3_3
Friday, February 03, 2006
VIEW: Pakistan, Islam and Indian media stereotypes —Yoginder Sikand
“[T]he limited support that radical Islamist groups enjoy in Pakistan reflects less a fierce commitment to their ultimate agenda of strict Islamist rule than a protest against the system which, ironically, has abetted such groups for its own purposes”
Contrary to Indian media representations, the average Pakistani is just about as religious or otherwise as the average Indian. The average Pakistani is certainly not the wild-eyed fanatic baying for non-Muslim blood or waging violent jihad to establish global Islamic hegemony that our media would have us believe. Like the average Indian, he is emotionally attached to and culturally rooted in his religion, but he does not wear it on his sleeve; nor does it dictate every thought or act of his. In fact, the thing that first strikes the Indian visitor to Pakistan is how almost identical the average Pakistani is, looks and behaves to the average north Indian.
Almost all the many people I met in the course of a recent month-long visit to Pakistan that took me to several places in Punjab and Sindh do not even remotely fit the description of the average Pakistani peddled by our media. Islamist radical groups undeniably do have an important presence in parts of Pakistan, but they certainly do not command widespread popular support all over the country. This explains the continual dismal performance of religious parties in every Pakistani election. Despite concerted efforts by Islamist and mullah-based parties to establish a theocracy in the country, Pakistani politics are not dominated by religion as much as by economic, ethnic and regional concerns. It is, therefore, crucial not to exaggerate the influence of radical religious outfits in Pakistan, as the Indian media generally does.
Indian media descriptions of Pakistan tend to portray Islam in the country as a seamless monolith. The variety of local expressions of Islam are consistently overlooked so as to reinforce the image of a single version of Islam that is defined by the most radical of Islamist groups. The fact, however, is, that most Punjabis and Sindhis, that is to say a majority of Pakistanis, ascribe to or are associated with the sufi traditions which are anathema for such Islamists. Popular sufism is deeply-rooted in Pakistani soil and provides a strong counter to radical Islamist groups and their exclusivist agenda. Many sufis were folk heroes, radicals in their own right, bitterly critiquing tyrannical rulers as well as Muslim and Hindu priests. This is why they exercised a powerful influence on the masses, irrespective of religion. This explains, in part, why Islamist radicals are so fiercely opposed to the traditions that have developed over the centuries around such figures.
The popular sufi tradition in large parts of Pakistan thus limits the appeal of radical Islamists, making the chances of an Islamist takeover of the country a remote possibility. In recent years, it is true, these groups have gained particular salience and strength, but this is said to be less a reflection of a growing popular commitment to the Islamist cause than to other factors. One of these is the role of the state. Although the ideological founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, envisaged Pakistan as a secular Muslim state, successive Pakistani governments have used Islam to bolster their own frail support base, exactly in the same manner as the Congress and the BJP have done with Hinduism in the Indian case. Islam has also been used to weld together a number of the country’s ethnic groups that have little in common other than their profession of Islam, in the same way in which advocates of both ‘soft’ Hindutva, such as the Congress, and ‘hard’ Hindutva, such as the BJP, have sought to invoke Brahminical Hinduism to define the Indian nation state. Hindutva ideologues propagate a form of Hindu ‘nationalism’ that has no space for Indians of other faiths, and is, in fact, based on an unrelenting hatred of non-Hindu ‘others’. Creating a Hindu identity in this fashion is predicated on excising all elements of culture and tradition that Hindus are seen to share with others. The same has happened in the case of official and radical versions of Islam in Pakistan. Yet, it is important to remember that this is not the only, and certainly not the dominant, form of Islam in Pakistan, as my interaction with numerous Pakistanis from different walks of life revealed to me.
“Radical Islamist groups are not a true reflection or representative of Pakistani Islam”, a social activist friend of mine from Sindh explains. “State manipulation of religion”, he argues, “has had a major role to play in promoting radical Islamism in Pakistan”, which, he says, “is largely an expression of elite politics and Western imperialist manipulation”. “To add to state patronage of such groups”, he points out, “there is the fact of mounting economic and social inequalities, sustained military rule, the continued stranglehold of feudal lords and the absence of mechanisms for expressing democratic dissent, all of which have enabled radical Islamist groups to assert the claim of representing normative Islam against other competing versions and visions of the faith.”
In some parts of Pakistan, such as Baluchistan and the North-West Frontier Province, he says, electoral support for Islamists “reflects anti-American sentiments rather than popular demands for theocratic rule”. Such groups, he says, have gained added strength from the ongoing conflict in Kashmir by “tapping into Pakistani nationalist sentiments on this issue in the same way as Hindutva groups used the Kashmir conflict in India, both seeking to present the issue in religious terms”. “In short”, he claims, “the limited support that radical Islamist groups enjoy in Pakistan reflects less a fierce commitment to their ultimate agenda of strict Islamist rule than a protest against the system which, ironically, has abetted such groups for its own purposes”.
“The task before Indians and Pakistanis seriously concerned about the future of our common subcontinent”, says another friend of mine, a journalist from Lahore, “is to rescue our religious traditions from the monopolistic claims of the radicals. Islamism in Pakistan and Hindutva in India feed on each other while claiming to be vociferous foes. We need to revive popular forms of religion, such as sufism and bhakti, that are accepting of other faiths and that at the same time are socially engaged and critique the system of domination that produces radicalism as a reaction while at the same time using it as a means of stifling challenges to it.”
The writer is post-doctoral fellow at the International Institute for the Study of Islam in the Modern World, Leiden. He also edits a web-magazine called Qalandar, which can be accessed at www.islaminterfaith.org
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 02 03 story_3-2-2006_pg3_3
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#43 Posted by MantoLives on February 3, 2006 4:03:27 am
Must have something to do with people like you who have given Hindus a bad name.
#42 Posted by harimau on February 3, 2006 2:30:31 am
Ref Mantolives #27
[Harish...
On the two points you raised now...
1- Lack of Hindu soldiers in the army
2- Officially sanctioned discrimination...
........I have queried people from the army on this and they have no answer.]
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
The answer is blowing in the wind.
Yasser, dear boy, the answer is you guys in Pakistan don`t trust the hated Hindus.
Just listen to the wind.
[Harish...
On the two points you raised now...
1- Lack of Hindu soldiers in the army
2- Officially sanctioned discrimination...
........I have queried people from the army on this and they have no answer.]
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
The answer is blowing in the wind.
Yasser, dear boy, the answer is you guys in Pakistan don`t trust the hated Hindus.
Just listen to the wind.
#41 Posted by MantoLives on February 3, 2006 12:42:39 am
Blah blah blah...
You`ve been shown up to be quite the idiot by Subroto and other Indians and now I realise that responding in kind to your ignorant comments is unnecessary.
You`ve been shown up to be quite the idiot by Subroto and other Indians and now I realise that responding in kind to your ignorant comments is unnecessary.
#40 Posted by veeresh on February 2, 2006 11:52:19 pm
Yasser/39 - I never said India was a land of milk and honey, did I?
AFAIK, the reason you are jumping up and down is because I pointed out the real similarities between LaHore and Nawanshahr to you and others.
Fine, I apologise. LaHore is not like N`Shahr. N`Shahr is now more like Vancouver BC, in fact people say that even Uxbridge and Hounslow are like N`Shahr.
I agree that LaHore is more like Singpoora (a lower-middle locality outside Hajipur). OK?
+++
On minorities in Pakistan - approximately 60% of the population in and around Nankana Sahib/Yateem Khana areas outside LaHore call themselves ``Jat Sikh Muslims``. Many of them are ready to revert back, given half a chance. Is that what is giving you nightmares, Yasser?? Never mind, I shall put in a good word for you.
+++
Indikad75 - thank you. My weight is a terrible problem, so I have given up. But you must try cholle bhature at ``Lahore Stall``, Krishna Market, Lajpat Nagar I, ultimate stuff.
+++
AFAIK, the reason you are jumping up and down is because I pointed out the real similarities between LaHore and Nawanshahr to you and others.
Fine, I apologise. LaHore is not like N`Shahr. N`Shahr is now more like Vancouver BC, in fact people say that even Uxbridge and Hounslow are like N`Shahr.
I agree that LaHore is more like Singpoora (a lower-middle locality outside Hajipur). OK?
+++
On minorities in Pakistan - approximately 60% of the population in and around Nankana Sahib/Yateem Khana areas outside LaHore call themselves ``Jat Sikh Muslims``. Many of them are ready to revert back, given half a chance. Is that what is giving you nightmares, Yasser?? Never mind, I shall put in a good word for you.
+++
Indikad75 - thank you. My weight is a terrible problem, so I have given up. But you must try cholle bhature at ``Lahore Stall``, Krishna Market, Lajpat Nagar I, ultimate stuff.
+++
#39 Posted by MantoLives on February 2, 2006 11:15:51 pm
anti-hypochrist...
Well my friend I did not claim that Pakistan was perfect... at any time. Veeresh on the other hand proclaimed India as a utopian land of honey and milk... My point was the whole routine of trying to figure out who laundry is dirtier is pointless...
This point is obviously lost on this cow we call Veeresh who routinely terrorises my articles with his stupid posts... - mercifuly he has learnt his lesson and not attacked my latest article.
#38 Posted by antihypochrist on February 2, 2006 7:15:59 pm
#5 YLH,
Why only restrict to recent times? Lookup the numbers in your 59 years of history. Except for perhaps Shias, the rest of the minorities in your country are miniscule in numbers. They cannot afford to rub you the wrong way. Gujarat riots are bad. But would there be a Godhra in your country ? Hindus burning down buses ?
The fact that rioting hadn`t spread to other states in India says something my dear lawyer.
Why only restrict to recent times? Lookup the numbers in your 59 years of history. Except for perhaps Shias, the rest of the minorities in your country are miniscule in numbers. They cannot afford to rub you the wrong way. Gujarat riots are bad. But would there be a Godhra in your country ? Hindus burning down buses ?
The fact that rioting hadn`t spread to other states in India says something my dear lawyer.
#37 Posted by jang on February 2, 2006 3:24:47 pm
there is a difference in dilli gol-gappas and mumbai (called pani-puri in mumbai).
Dilli: kinda minty jal-zeera, less spicy, no filling.
Mumbai: spicy-garlicy, usually with potato-sprouted mung filling.
also, chat in dilli tends to have fried potato shavings (salli as in salli boti) and in mumbai its sev (super-thin fried besan noodles)
in summer, we here have all kinds of chilli cook-offs and bar-b-que competitions, veeresh its time to have gol-gappa fest..we will invite the bombay panipuri house from karachi.
Dilli: kinda minty jal-zeera, less spicy, no filling.
Mumbai: spicy-garlicy, usually with potato-sprouted mung filling.
also, chat in dilli tends to have fried potato shavings (salli as in salli boti) and in mumbai its sev (super-thin fried besan noodles)
in summer, we here have all kinds of chilli cook-offs and bar-b-que competitions, veeresh its time to have gol-gappa fest..we will invite the bombay panipuri house from karachi.
#36 Posted by MantoLives on February 2, 2006 2:40:21 am
Inkidad...
Yes absolutely ... I agree that 1- Ummah is a myth 2- Indian Muslims are committed to their country.
This is not what is being discussed here btw.
Yes absolutely ... I agree that 1- Ummah is a myth 2- Indian Muslims are committed to their country.
This is not what is being discussed here btw.
#35 Posted by MantoLives on February 2, 2006 2:38:39 am
No my dear hypocrite...
It goes the other way around. This bear of a man comes and disrupts all my articles by making stupid and inane comments..
So this is a courtesy call.
#34 Posted by antihypochrist on February 2, 2006 12:15:06 am
YLH, you are blindfolded with your love for Jinnah, and hatred towards India. Your very first interact to this article came as quick as a reflex, and it is very clear to all of us - no matter how forceful and objective you try to come out as in your arguments, you are one another Indian basher
#33 Posted by indikad75 on February 1, 2006 11:35:43 pm
Dear Veeresh bhai,
Before I get into other things, let me congratulate you for this delightful piece. Beating of Retreat has been a favourite ever since the time I first saw it. I was one of those ``fauji brats`` sitting on the carpets, though a couple of decades after you were there. To this day I make sure I dont miss BoR on DD (thats the only day we watch DD, I guess); especially the nonpareil `ABIDE WITH ME`. One word to describe this hymn : soul-stirring! The coordination between the band and the guy on the Tubular bells is out-of-this-world. The Drummer`s Call is another classic. I dont think they play Colonel Bogey anymore. The emphasis is more on Indian tunes these days at the BoR.
About Mr.YLH, I think he should have been ignored in the first place. That would have ensured that this didn`t become (irrespective of the article being discussed) the usual India Vs. Pak thing.
Harimau,
Just a couple of points:
1. Interact #24: ``99.99% of Indian Muslims are committed to India and not to Pakistan and certainly not to the Ummah.``
Agree 100.00% ! The Ummah, btw is a myth.
2. Interact #28: ``Is there a requirement somewhere in the Koran that Muslims have to whine?``
Please direct your comments towards the people (or whiners- and you have them in every community) who are making them rather than at their religion. Do you realise that (in your own words) ``99.99% Indian Muslims who are committed to India`` also consider the Koran their holy book. Why drag it into this debate and hurt their sentiments ?
To end, Veeresh bhai, I was in Delhi last year this time and tried out the `chola-bhatura` and `gulab-jamun` in front of the INSA building at ITO. Thankfully, Pet bhi kharaab nahin huwa aur maza bhi khoob aaya.
BTW what was your weight after that Rs.62.00 wala feast ? ;)
Before I get into other things, let me congratulate you for this delightful piece. Beating of Retreat has been a favourite ever since the time I first saw it. I was one of those ``fauji brats`` sitting on the carpets, though a couple of decades after you were there. To this day I make sure I dont miss BoR on DD (thats the only day we watch DD, I guess); especially the nonpareil `ABIDE WITH ME`. One word to describe this hymn : soul-stirring! The coordination between the band and the guy on the Tubular bells is out-of-this-world. The Drummer`s Call is another classic. I dont think they play Colonel Bogey anymore. The emphasis is more on Indian tunes these days at the BoR.
About Mr.YLH, I think he should have been ignored in the first place. That would have ensured that this didn`t become (irrespective of the article being discussed) the usual India Vs. Pak thing.
Harimau,
Just a couple of points:
1. Interact #24: ``99.99% of Indian Muslims are committed to India and not to Pakistan and certainly not to the Ummah.``
Agree 100.00% ! The Ummah, btw is a myth.
2. Interact #28: ``Is there a requirement somewhere in the Koran that Muslims have to whine?``
Please direct your comments towards the people (or whiners- and you have them in every community) who are making them rather than at their religion. Do you realise that (in your own words) ``99.99% Indian Muslims who are committed to India`` also consider the Koran their holy book. Why drag it into this debate and hurt their sentiments ?
To end, Veeresh bhai, I was in Delhi last year this time and tried out the `chola-bhatura` and `gulab-jamun` in front of the INSA building at ITO. Thankfully, Pet bhi kharaab nahin huwa aur maza bhi khoob aaya.
BTW what was your weight after that Rs.62.00 wala feast ? ;)
#32 Posted by MantoLives on February 1, 2006 5:18:30 am
Its not like people-Muslims and Christians- haven`t become Hindu in India...
Do you think Deepak Perwani will ever become a Muslim? Rana Bhagwandas will ever become a Muslim? The Hindus of Clifton will never become a Muslim... Ramesh Kumar will never become a Muslim... the Hindu MPs and Christian MPs will never become Muslims...
So lets keep this issue aside... the fact that this is what you`ve got shows how unbalanced you are and have been for the last 7 years.
#31 Posted by harimau on February 1, 2006 12:03:40 am
Yasser, dear boy, can you explain why Yousuf Youhanna suddebly saw the light and embraced the True Faith?
Do you think Irfan Pathan will ever become a Hindu?
Do you think Irfan Pathan will ever become a Hindu?
#30 Posted by MantoLives on January 31, 2006 10:15:39 pm
harimau
yawn.
Yes India is shining...mooning.
yawn.
Yes India is shining...mooning.
#29 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on January 31, 2006 9:18:35 am
#25, Veeresh {``Beer on pavement cafes, not right now. ``}
Veeresh,
One of my fondest memories about India is that hot day in Bombay right on Juhu Beach, enjoying even hotter chicken tikka and washing the delicious snack down with very cold Kingfisher beer - in the big bottle. :)
Veeresh,
One of my fondest memories about India is that hot day in Bombay right on Juhu Beach, enjoying even hotter chicken tikka and washing the delicious snack down with very cold Kingfisher beer - in the big bottle. :)
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