Making a Martyr of Saddam
Karamatullah K Ghori January 3, 2007
#21 Posted by ZahraJ on January 10, 2007 11:43:04 pm
Re: # 19
Zeemax - I am sorry your rationale lacks something. Somehow I think you know what it is. I had expected you to be fair and insightful. Despite a practical approach towards life, I am guilty of nurturing some staunch idealistic beliefs. And those beliefs make me wonder why some Muslim rulers are so easily exploited by non-Muslims. Is it something to do with the inner corruption? Or is it the bad external influence ? Probably, both. If your inside is rightly aligned, then no external influence can make you stumble.
Zeemax - I am sorry your rationale lacks something. Somehow I think you know what it is. I had expected you to be fair and insightful. Despite a practical approach towards life, I am guilty of nurturing some staunch idealistic beliefs. And those beliefs make me wonder why some Muslim rulers are so easily exploited by non-Muslims. Is it something to do with the inner corruption? Or is it the bad external influence ? Probably, both. If your inside is rightly aligned, then no external influence can make you stumble.
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#20 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on January 8, 2007 11:12:11 am
ZahraJ`s rhetoric smacks of sectarian violence. :)
As a Shia, I don`t feel the urgency or importance of siding with Maleki just because he is a Shia or hating Sadman Houston just because he was a Sunni. Vive le difference.
As a Shia, I don`t feel the urgency or importance of siding with Maleki just because he is a Shia or hating Sadman Houston just because he was a Sunni. Vive le difference.
#19 Posted by zeemax on January 8, 2007 12:22:04 am
#17 by ZahraJ
Your view is not uncommon of those who look at the most recent events from a moral standpoint as if history began last Monday, or the one before.
Your highlighted comments i.e. ... ``So, when tears fall left, right and center on American invasion of Iraq and finding a remaining shoe of little Fatima or Yousuf (as shown on Chowk`s front page) then similar resentment should be expressed when a Muslim in power violates a fellow Muslim in any capacity. Ironically, that is covered under the facade of ``despotic manners`` and no accountability.`` ... adequately typify the mindset referred above.
What you forget, however, is that before the american invasion found Muslims in power violating fellow Muslims in Iraq, and decided to lynch Saddam for all those deeds ... it was the Americans who had not only installed Saddam in power but also armed him to the teeth with conventional as well as chemicals directly and indirectly through Europe, had encouraged him to invade Iran, had sustained him in power despite his `violation` of his fellow Muslims, and called his massing of troops at the Kuwait border as his `internal affair`. I am sorry. History did not begin last week.
It is not a question of Muslim/Non-Muslim ruler here. It is the motive behind the lynching that is being questioned. Saddam was lynched for the same reason that Salvadore Allende was found in a gutter. And Allende was neither Muslim, nor despotic ....
Your view is not uncommon of those who look at the most recent events from a moral standpoint as if history began last Monday, or the one before.
Your highlighted comments i.e. ... ``So, when tears fall left, right and center on American invasion of Iraq and finding a remaining shoe of little Fatima or Yousuf (as shown on Chowk`s front page) then similar resentment should be expressed when a Muslim in power violates a fellow Muslim in any capacity. Ironically, that is covered under the facade of ``despotic manners`` and no accountability.`` ... adequately typify the mindset referred above.
What you forget, however, is that before the american invasion found Muslims in power violating fellow Muslims in Iraq, and decided to lynch Saddam for all those deeds ... it was the Americans who had not only installed Saddam in power but also armed him to the teeth with conventional as well as chemicals directly and indirectly through Europe, had encouraged him to invade Iran, had sustained him in power despite his `violation` of his fellow Muslims, and called his massing of troops at the Kuwait border as his `internal affair`. I am sorry. History did not begin last week.
It is not a question of Muslim/Non-Muslim ruler here. It is the motive behind the lynching that is being questioned. Saddam was lynched for the same reason that Salvadore Allende was found in a gutter. And Allende was neither Muslim, nor despotic ....
#18 Posted by ZahraJ on January 7, 2007 4:06:24 pm
Re: # 14
Zain - I am sorry if you were not able to connect the dots. You need to read things in the right context. I understand when it comes to a Muslim tyrant vs. a non-Muslim tyrant, some fellow Muslims will always highlight the ugliest stuff of the non-Muslim tyrant and will still try to locate some semblance of holiness in the Muslim tyrant. That`s what it all boils down to. There is very little focus on introspection. It`s not about beating our own shortcomings to death . It`s about accepting what is not there and looking into ways to improve. It`s the latter that is completely missing.
Take Care.
Zain - I am sorry if you were not able to connect the dots. You need to read things in the right context. I understand when it comes to a Muslim tyrant vs. a non-Muslim tyrant, some fellow Muslims will always highlight the ugliest stuff of the non-Muslim tyrant and will still try to locate some semblance of holiness in the Muslim tyrant. That`s what it all boils down to. There is very little focus on introspection. It`s not about beating our own shortcomings to death . It`s about accepting what is not there and looking into ways to improve. It`s the latter that is completely missing.
Take Care.
#17 Posted by ZahraJ on January 7, 2007 3:56:59 pm
Zeemax - 15 & 16 (the after thought)
Sometimes it`s worth posting the take of a layman since he is more passionate and less hestitant in holding back his true sentiments. That`s the reason this fellow`s comments made their way over here. Your post # 15 is no different from the cab-driver`s views. In fact, you stance is a complete replica. Let`s not forget in a free world, everyone is entitled to her or his views.
Your question could have been included as a survey question on cnn online and other ezines provided you had taken that initiative earlier. I have been away so did not follow-up on all the gory details of his execution. I cannot seem to find the article where Maliki`s stance was posted in detail. His rationale for removing the gone Muslim ruler asap had its own reasoning. Some may believe it was the American pressure, others may not.
I guess in the heat of emotions you made a poor judgement of using the term ``statesman`` for the gone ruler of Iraq. By definition, ``a statesman is someone who exercises political leadership wisely and without narrow partisanship. Also, who is well versed in the principles or art of government.`` You seem to refute your own stance. If his ways were despotic, then that`s not in line with the characteristics and attributes one would imagine a Muslim statesment to uphold. ?
There were several human rights` violations attributed to this gone ruler. That includes many horrific tales of violating fellow Muslim men and women. So, when tears fall left, right and center on American invasion of Iraq and finding a remaining shoe of little Fatima or Yousuf (as shown on Chowk`s front page) then similar resentment should be expressed when a Muslim in power violates a fellow Muslim in any capacity. Ironically, that is covered under the facade of ``despotic manners`` and no accountability. That`s very amusing way of looking at the world that includes both muslims and non-muslims as rulers, leaders, and dictators. This episode is about Iraq and the curse that the whole world is facing because of the on-going turmoil in Iraq. Comparing the situation in Iraq to another country`s making or breaking is not the resolution to this on-going turmoil on Earth.
Happy New Year.
Sometimes it`s worth posting the take of a layman since he is more passionate and less hestitant in holding back his true sentiments. That`s the reason this fellow`s comments made their way over here. Your post # 15 is no different from the cab-driver`s views. In fact, you stance is a complete replica. Let`s not forget in a free world, everyone is entitled to her or his views.
Your question could have been included as a survey question on cnn online and other ezines provided you had taken that initiative earlier. I have been away so did not follow-up on all the gory details of his execution. I cannot seem to find the article where Maliki`s stance was posted in detail. His rationale for removing the gone Muslim ruler asap had its own reasoning. Some may believe it was the American pressure, others may not.
I guess in the heat of emotions you made a poor judgement of using the term ``statesman`` for the gone ruler of Iraq. By definition, ``a statesman is someone who exercises political leadership wisely and without narrow partisanship. Also, who is well versed in the principles or art of government.`` You seem to refute your own stance. If his ways were despotic, then that`s not in line with the characteristics and attributes one would imagine a Muslim statesment to uphold. ?
There were several human rights` violations attributed to this gone ruler. That includes many horrific tales of violating fellow Muslim men and women. So, when tears fall left, right and center on American invasion of Iraq and finding a remaining shoe of little Fatima or Yousuf (as shown on Chowk`s front page) then similar resentment should be expressed when a Muslim in power violates a fellow Muslim in any capacity. Ironically, that is covered under the facade of ``despotic manners`` and no accountability. That`s very amusing way of looking at the world that includes both muslims and non-muslims as rulers, leaders, and dictators. This episode is about Iraq and the curse that the whole world is facing because of the on-going turmoil in Iraq. Comparing the situation in Iraq to another country`s making or breaking is not the resolution to this on-going turmoil on Earth.
Happy New Year.
#16 Posted by zeemax on January 7, 2007 4:06:35 am
All said and done, Saddam was guilty of just one thing ... not killing the Dujail plotters, nor gassing of the Kurdish rebellion, nor the Iran/Iraq war over the marshes. It was enriching himself with the country`s fortunes in a despotic manner alongwith his sons. For that, he should have been deposed and exiled in shame, just like Papa Doc of Haiti, or Umaro Deko of Nigeria, or the Shah of Iran. Not hung through a kangaroo court. That was political, and far from justice.
#15 Posted by zeemax on January 7, 2007 3:53:32 am
ZahraJ,
Who is your favourite statesman? Name me one, and I`ll tell you how many he was responsible for killing, whether while quashing rebellions or otherwise.
Just one. Thanks, and I shall be eternally grateful.
(P.S. And please don`t ask your cabbie ... )
Who is your favourite statesman? Name me one, and I`ll tell you how many he was responsible for killing, whether while quashing rebellions or otherwise.
Just one. Thanks, and I shall be eternally grateful.
(P.S. And please don`t ask your cabbie ... )
#14 Posted by malik99 on January 6, 2007 10:48:17 pm
Zahra #13 - Your point in post # 13 is separate from the one you made in #6 and which I responded to.
I agree with many of the things in #13 , that Muslims dont necessarily stop killing on Eid day so why criticize the killing of Saddam on eid day.
Also, projecting thoughts of a cabbie as if they represented the thoughts of a majority of muslim world is a bit naive. For example, his comment that ``Since he was a Muslim, it was inhuman to give him death penalty`` does not make sense at any level.
regards
I agree with many of the things in #13 , that Muslims dont necessarily stop killing on Eid day so why criticize the killing of Saddam on eid day.
Also, projecting thoughts of a cabbie as if they represented the thoughts of a majority of muslim world is a bit naive. For example, his comment that ``Since he was a Muslim, it was inhuman to give him death penalty`` does not make sense at any level.
regards
#13 Posted by ZahraJ on January 6, 2007 6:17:03 pm
Re: # 10
Either you are naive or you do not want to accept what`s missing among the Muslims. It`s ok. On a recent cab ride, the cab driver (a Moroccan) made a few very interesting remarks. According to him:
- A leader like Saddam did not deserve this fate.
- Since he was a Muslim, it was inhuman to give him death penalty.
- Maliki has neither any moral courage nor guts to implement such a drastic step. (Exactly your sentiments)
- No matter how bad a Muslim leader is, he does not deserve to be killed. (It`s his born right to be brutal)
- Every leader kills and it`s an essential part of rising up. (Since he knew a little about Pakistani leadership in the past, he tried to draw some parallels and spoke passionately about the Moroccan Kings and their shenanigans.)
- The issue of 1980s killing was a facade. (Since the killing of Kurds was not even stamped and proven by any deity, therefore those Kurds must have been hallucinating.)
- It was terrible that a fellow Muslim was executed on the day of Eid.
- When Saddam was alive, none of the sectarian issues ever arose. (Obviously!)
I won`t be surprised if majority of the Muslim world thinks like that. Ironically, majority of the Muslim world completely ignores the hovering bad karma on their fellow Muslim brethren who belong to a different sect in Iraq. Did the Iraqis stop killing on holy days and special events? If they did, then we must appreciate the discipline among the Iraqi Muslims. Beyond that, there is nothing to be said.
Either you are naive or you do not want to accept what`s missing among the Muslims. It`s ok. On a recent cab ride, the cab driver (a Moroccan) made a few very interesting remarks. According to him:
- A leader like Saddam did not deserve this fate.
- Since he was a Muslim, it was inhuman to give him death penalty.
- Maliki has neither any moral courage nor guts to implement such a drastic step. (Exactly your sentiments)
- No matter how bad a Muslim leader is, he does not deserve to be killed. (It`s his born right to be brutal)
- Every leader kills and it`s an essential part of rising up. (Since he knew a little about Pakistani leadership in the past, he tried to draw some parallels and spoke passionately about the Moroccan Kings and their shenanigans.)
- The issue of 1980s killing was a facade. (Since the killing of Kurds was not even stamped and proven by any deity, therefore those Kurds must have been hallucinating.)
- It was terrible that a fellow Muslim was executed on the day of Eid.
- When Saddam was alive, none of the sectarian issues ever arose. (Obviously!)
I won`t be surprised if majority of the Muslim world thinks like that. Ironically, majority of the Muslim world completely ignores the hovering bad karma on their fellow Muslim brethren who belong to a different sect in Iraq. Did the Iraqis stop killing on holy days and special events? If they did, then we must appreciate the discipline among the Iraqi Muslims. Beyond that, there is nothing to be said.
#12 Posted by nasah on January 4, 2007 9:55:08 am
Ah that executioner-face Maliki and his fat puppet neck -- if I was not an opponent of capital punishment -- I would have loved to put the noose around his made-in-heaven-for-hangin neck -- and pulled the trap door on that blot-on-a shia-martyrdom......
#11 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on January 4, 2007 8:15:47 am
#10, Malik Sahib
Very fitting remark - if the situation were not so morbid, I would say that your rebuttal was quite funny.
Very fitting remark - if the situation were not so morbid, I would say that your rebuttal was quite funny.
#10 Posted by malik99 on January 4, 2007 5:53:32 am
zahraJ # 6 writes ``Why is that Muslims think that every step in Iraq is dictated, planned and executed by the Americans?``
I think it may have something to do with the presence of 150,000 american soldiers, thousands of tanks, artillary, bomber planes, gun ship helicopters, and the small fact that Maliki owes his very life to the american protection.
But I am not sure.
I think it may have something to do with the presence of 150,000 american soldiers, thousands of tanks, artillary, bomber planes, gun ship helicopters, and the small fact that Maliki owes his very life to the american protection.
But I am not sure.
#9 Posted by smartsyco on January 4, 2007 2:35:18 am
He who pays the piper calls the tunes
we don`t need to say anything else ....... the best quotation ever .....................i think said for the same situation
we don`t need to say anything else ....... the best quotation ever .....................i think said for the same situation
#8 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on January 3, 2007 8:24:28 pm
Mr. Ghori,
Having said what I said in #7 and having agreed with your well-presented case against the occupiers, I must emphasize that, in the final analysis, the responsibility for justice and freedom lies with the natives. Whether it`s Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Pakistan, or Somalia, the citizens of each of these countries have to learn not to let foreigners dictate the agenda of their lives. They have to stop becoming canon fodder for the nefarious goals of mullahs, dictators, kings, demagogues, and tribal chiefs. They have to learn to respect AND love each other, regardless of creed, sect, race, province, or tribe. Secularism, true democracy, rule of law, and equality for everyone will be the eventual salvation of the people in our neck of the woods. There is no point in blaming others for our own shortcomings. People, even those who wish you harm, tend to respect those who respect themselves. As for Muslims, respect is too high a goal; we need to learn to tolerate each other and those who are unfortunate to live among us.
Having said what I said in #7 and having agreed with your well-presented case against the occupiers, I must emphasize that, in the final analysis, the responsibility for justice and freedom lies with the natives. Whether it`s Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Pakistan, or Somalia, the citizens of each of these countries have to learn not to let foreigners dictate the agenda of their lives. They have to stop becoming canon fodder for the nefarious goals of mullahs, dictators, kings, demagogues, and tribal chiefs. They have to learn to respect AND love each other, regardless of creed, sect, race, province, or tribe. Secularism, true democracy, rule of law, and equality for everyone will be the eventual salvation of the people in our neck of the woods. There is no point in blaming others for our own shortcomings. People, even those who wish you harm, tend to respect those who respect themselves. As for Muslims, respect is too high a goal; we need to learn to tolerate each other and those who are unfortunate to live among us.
#7 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on January 3, 2007 8:02:26 pm
Ghori Sahib,
Extremely well-written article with a uniquely captivating condemnation of a thoroughly bankrupt, diabolical, and immoral agenda. I agree that the more appropriate place to try Sadman Houston would have been The Hague. Mr. Ghori, you have articulated a well-sequenced accusation against the perpetual perpetrators of evil and their vengeful clients in Baghdad.
As a Shia, I totally resent and wholeheartedly refute the puppet Maliki`s subservient complicity in this orchestrated murder. Maliki`s merciless Interior Ministry goons, on loan from a perverted Shiite cleric`s personal militia, torture, kill, and terrorize Iraqi civilians who happen to be Sunnis. Maliki stands exposed as the little terror in the schoolyard who wants to eat his victims alive only when they have been overpowered by intervening grownups.
Extremely well-written article with a uniquely captivating condemnation of a thoroughly bankrupt, diabolical, and immoral agenda. I agree that the more appropriate place to try Sadman Houston would have been The Hague. Mr. Ghori, you have articulated a well-sequenced accusation against the perpetual perpetrators of evil and their vengeful clients in Baghdad.
As a Shia, I totally resent and wholeheartedly refute the puppet Maliki`s subservient complicity in this orchestrated murder. Maliki`s merciless Interior Ministry goons, on loan from a perverted Shiite cleric`s personal militia, torture, kill, and terrorize Iraqi civilians who happen to be Sunnis. Maliki stands exposed as the little terror in the schoolyard who wants to eat his victims alive only when they have been overpowered by intervening grownups.
#6 Posted by ZahraJ on January 3, 2007 7:35:38 pm
[The Americans have no doubt used the client Maliki regime in Baghdad to do their dirty work. The whole operation, from beginning to end, carries American finger- prints all over it, just as Saddam’s sham and flimsy ‘show’ trial did, from beginning to end. ]
Mr. Ghori - Did you even read Maliki`s stance? Why is that Muslims think that every step in Iraq is dictated, planned and executed by the Americans?
Mr. Ghori - Did you even read Maliki`s stance? Why is that Muslims think that every step in Iraq is dictated, planned and executed by the Americans?
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