Nehru’s Legacy: Time to pay tribute
Aparna Pande January 3, 2007
#868 Posted by harish_hyd on January 23, 2007 5:07:39 am
#865 by Yasser
I am surprised that British citizen Salman Rushdie, whose entire family lives in Karachi, is being claimed by the saffron brigade as their own.
Umm...sorry to rain in on this parade of self-delusion, but here`s what Salman Rushdie himself had to say in an interview on NDTV.
Barkha: Because clearly there are references to India, there is references to Kashmir, there are references to New York, Bombay, London. But is Karachi part of Salman Rushdie.
Rushdie:Not really, I know which side I am on in, the cricket test.
Barkha: And which side is that?
Rushdie: Its always India, India-Pakistan - no problem for me.
As for Victor Menezes ... who the hell is he.
Paki ignorance never ceases to amaze me. If this is the plight of a supposedly well-heeled Paki, one can only imagine what average Abdul`s IQ would be.
Victor Menezes
The ``World Famous`` Indians don`t live in India nor would they ever live in India because of the shithole it really is.
But isn`t it the Paki women who`re getting raped in order to get visas to Canada? Wonder why that is if Pakistan were the paradise you`re claiming it is.
The ``World famous in Pakistan`` Pakistanis live in Pakistan and doing very well right here.
Sure..like Cecil Chaudhary, who couldn`t get a promotion because of his religion, or Mohammed Yousuf, who had to convert in order to bolster his chances of becoming the captain.
I am surprised that British citizen Salman Rushdie, whose entire family lives in Karachi, is being claimed by the saffron brigade as their own.
Umm...sorry to rain in on this parade of self-delusion, but here`s what Salman Rushdie himself had to say in an interview on NDTV.
Barkha: Because clearly there are references to India, there is references to Kashmir, there are references to New York, Bombay, London. But is Karachi part of Salman Rushdie.
Rushdie:Not really, I know which side I am on in, the cricket test.
Barkha: And which side is that?
Rushdie: Its always India, India-Pakistan - no problem for me.
As for Victor Menezes ... who the hell is he.
Paki ignorance never ceases to amaze me. If this is the plight of a supposedly well-heeled Paki, one can only imagine what average Abdul`s IQ would be.
Victor Menezes
The ``World Famous`` Indians don`t live in India nor would they ever live in India because of the shithole it really is.
But isn`t it the Paki women who`re getting raped in order to get visas to Canada? Wonder why that is if Pakistan were the paradise you`re claiming it is.
The ``World famous in Pakistan`` Pakistanis live in Pakistan and doing very well right here.
Sure..like Cecil Chaudhary, who couldn`t get a promotion because of his religion, or Mohammed Yousuf, who had to convert in order to bolster his chances of becoming the captain.
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#867 Posted by CoolAL on January 19, 2007 11:18:12 am
# 866
Tell me, do you really believe this crap you spout? I would find it amazingly entertaining if you did.
Oh, I would also urge you to read through some of your interacts to that article, I found them to be quite entertaining as well.
Tell me, do you really believe this crap you spout? I would find it amazingly entertaining if you did.
Oh, I would also urge you to read through some of your interacts to that article, I found them to be quite entertaining as well.
#866 Posted by MantoLives on January 19, 2007 4:51:46 am
Uba 864,
Well done.
Read that again. Then read Nehru`s statements. You`ll see who wanted what and who was what. But then again, Indian Chowkies are known to suffer from blindness every now and then.
Sanatani,
You spoke about contigious units. The word ``units`` is the key. By partitioning Punjab and Bengal the situation changed. Then the same courtesy should have been accorded to all provinces of British India.
CoolAl
Ah... Cecil Chaudhry`s interview from 2001 eh?
Truth be told .. in 2001, I used to believe similarly. Infact my arguments were along the same line. I too believed that India had proved itself blah blah blah nonsense. And that we Pakistanis needed to prove ourselves.
Then I realised that most of what we were told about India was a media PR effort. The intercommunal disharmony became obvious.
It goes without saying that Pakistan is far from perfect and has all the flaws that the great Pakistani hero Cecil Chaudhry has pointed out... but India is even worse...
Well done.
Read that again. Then read Nehru`s statements. You`ll see who wanted what and who was what. But then again, Indian Chowkies are known to suffer from blindness every now and then.
Sanatani,
You spoke about contigious units. The word ``units`` is the key. By partitioning Punjab and Bengal the situation changed. Then the same courtesy should have been accorded to all provinces of British India.
CoolAl
Ah... Cecil Chaudhry`s interview from 2001 eh?
Truth be told .. in 2001, I used to believe similarly. Infact my arguments were along the same line. I too believed that India had proved itself blah blah blah nonsense. And that we Pakistanis needed to prove ourselves.
Then I realised that most of what we were told about India was a media PR effort. The intercommunal disharmony became obvious.
It goes without saying that Pakistan is far from perfect and has all the flaws that the great Pakistani hero Cecil Chaudhry has pointed out... but India is even worse...
#865 Posted by MantoLives on January 19, 2007 4:41:41 am
Ah ... I see a lot of saffron dhotis on fire as usual. In any event... the point has been adequately made.
I am surprised that British citizen Salman Rushdie, whose entire family lives in Karachi, is being claimed by the saffron brigade as their own. As for Victor Menezes ... who the hell is he. Fareed Zakaria, the scion of that Rafiq Zakaria, is the only person who can be conceded.
I do the spot the difference. The ``World Famous`` Indians don`t live in India nor would they ever live in India because of the shithole it really is. The ``World famous in Pakistan`` Pakistanis live in Pakistan and doing very well right here.
#864 Posted by uba on January 18, 2007 12:43:36 am
Ayesha Jalal holds:
``By apparently repudiating the need for any centre, and keeping quiet about its shape, Jinnah calculated that when eventually the time came to discuss an all-India federation, British and Congress alike would be forced to negotiate with organised Muslim opinion, and would be ready to make substantial concessions to create or retain that centre. The Lahore resolution should therefore be seen as a bargaining counter, which had the merit of being acceptable (on the face of it) to the majority-province Muslims, and of being totally unacceptable to the Congress and in the last resort to the British also. This, in turn, provided the best insurance that the League would not be given what it now apparently was asking for, but which Jinnah in fact did not really want`` (The Sole Spokesman; page 57).
``The Lahore resolution of the League does not look forward to the proposed regional states assuming immediately, as they are formed, powers of defence, external affairs, communication, customs, etc. This argues that there should be a transitional stage during which these powers should be exercised by some agency common to them all...
Jinnah disowned it and even repudiated the Committee`s locus standi. (For the text of the Report vide The Pakistan Issue edited by Nawab Nazir Yar Jang Bahadur; Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, Lahore; 1943; pp 73-92). It was not unanimous. A leak to the press created a sharp controversy. But these lines in the Report showed keen perception:
``A common coordinating agency would be necessary...; for, under the third principle of the Resolution, it will be impossible to implement effectively the provisions of safeguards for minorities without some organic relationship subsisting between the States... an agreed formula has to be devised whereby the Muslims shall share the control at the Centre on terms of perfect equality with the non-Muslims`` (page 88). In plain words, Pakistan would spell the ruin of Indian Muslims unless it had an ``organic relationship`` with the rest of India.
Jinnah did not wish publicly to concede a Centre. Confident of his tactical skills he thought he would pull it off when the chips were down. He miscalculated. The Congress was not interested in sharing power. His abrasive rhetoric impaired his credentials as an interlocutor.
Nehru wrote in his jail diary on December 28, 1943:
``Instinctively I think it is better to have Pakistan or almost nothing if only to keep Jinnah far away and not allow his muddled and arrogant head from (sic) interfering continually in India`s progress`` (Selected Works of Jawaharlal Nehru; First Series; Vol.13; page 324). He accurately predicted: ``I cannot help thinking that ultimately the Muslims of India will suffer most`` (ibid; page 24).
``By apparently repudiating the need for any centre, and keeping quiet about its shape, Jinnah calculated that when eventually the time came to discuss an all-India federation, British and Congress alike would be forced to negotiate with organised Muslim opinion, and would be ready to make substantial concessions to create or retain that centre. The Lahore resolution should therefore be seen as a bargaining counter, which had the merit of being acceptable (on the face of it) to the majority-province Muslims, and of being totally unacceptable to the Congress and in the last resort to the British also. This, in turn, provided the best insurance that the League would not be given what it now apparently was asking for, but which Jinnah in fact did not really want`` (The Sole Spokesman; page 57).
``The Lahore resolution of the League does not look forward to the proposed regional states assuming immediately, as they are formed, powers of defence, external affairs, communication, customs, etc. This argues that there should be a transitional stage during which these powers should be exercised by some agency common to them all...
Jinnah disowned it and even repudiated the Committee`s locus standi. (For the text of the Report vide The Pakistan Issue edited by Nawab Nazir Yar Jang Bahadur; Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, Lahore; 1943; pp 73-92). It was not unanimous. A leak to the press created a sharp controversy. But these lines in the Report showed keen perception:
``A common coordinating agency would be necessary...; for, under the third principle of the Resolution, it will be impossible to implement effectively the provisions of safeguards for minorities without some organic relationship subsisting between the States... an agreed formula has to be devised whereby the Muslims shall share the control at the Centre on terms of perfect equality with the non-Muslims`` (page 88). In plain words, Pakistan would spell the ruin of Indian Muslims unless it had an ``organic relationship`` with the rest of India.
Jinnah did not wish publicly to concede a Centre. Confident of his tactical skills he thought he would pull it off when the chips were down. He miscalculated. The Congress was not interested in sharing power. His abrasive rhetoric impaired his credentials as an interlocutor.
Nehru wrote in his jail diary on December 28, 1943:
``Instinctively I think it is better to have Pakistan or almost nothing if only to keep Jinnah far away and not allow his muddled and arrogant head from (sic) interfering continually in India`s progress`` (Selected Works of Jawaharlal Nehru; First Series; Vol.13; page 324). He accurately predicted: ``I cannot help thinking that ultimately the Muslims of India will suffer most`` (ibid; page 24).
#863 Posted by KaalChakra on January 17, 2007 1:38:49 pm
re: soysauce #849
Nehru`s misfortune was that he led an ancient, poor, envervated nation which was big only in size then. So he had to be civil to (beg from) American Presidents whom he did not regard his equal. Had a man like that been born in a country of real power and standing....
(Or may be, it is for the better that such idealists do not get that much power. When they latch on to ideas (say socialism, in his case) they can go all dreamy-eyed).
Nehru`s misfortune was that he led an ancient, poor, envervated nation which was big only in size then. So he had to be civil to (beg from) American Presidents whom he did not regard his equal. Had a man like that been born in a country of real power and standing....
(Or may be, it is for the better that such idealists do not get that much power. When they latch on to ideas (say socialism, in his case) they can go all dreamy-eyed).
#862 Posted by DrDr on January 17, 2007 12:04:59 pm
I know of a Xtian extended family in seattle from pakistan who claim they emigrated coz of discrimination. They say its tough 4 xtian kids there..
#861 Posted by CoolAL on January 17, 2007 11:07:04 am
This is too easy. Here is what Cecil Chaudhry has to say. Form the chowk archive no less !! ;-)
Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ
Q. Did you ever experience any discrimination at any stage in your service because you were a Christian?
I was cleared for promotion to the rank of an Air Commodore by the Air Board but was not approved by Zia, who in any case was supposed to be a rubber-stamping authority. No Chief, Shamim or Jamal had the moral fibre to tell me why. Would I then be wrong to conclude that it was my religion that came in the way?
Q. Does the Christian Community have faith in the future of Pakistan as a State, which is in line with the Founder of the nation’s speech of 11th August?
Not just the Christian Community but all the non-Muslim citizens are fighting for their rights as guaranteed by the Founder. We are totally disillusioned by what is happening to Pakistan. We created Pakistan, we are developing Pakistan, we fought gallantly for the defence of Pakistan against external enemies and now we are fighting against the internal enemies who are trying their utmost to destroy Pakistan.
Q. Has induction of Pakistani Christians in the Armed Forces particularly the Air Force increased or decreased from 1947 till 2000?
It has definitely decreased and there are a number of reasons for this. Because of gross discrimination against the minorities Christian youth have become demoralized and generally do not attempt to join the Armed Forces. Actually seeing highly professional officers being by-passed for higher promotions and eventually being superseded, thus asking early retirement, especially during the Zia era, has been a strong contributing factor. Lastly, a large number of educated Christian families have since migrated due to frustration.
Q. How would you compare the state of religious tolerance and equality of opportunity between India and Pakistan?
With deep regret I have to admit that there is no comparison. India is a proven secular country and the state of religious tolerance and equality is far better than that of Pakistan.
Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ
Q. Did you ever experience any discrimination at any stage in your service because you were a Christian?
I was cleared for promotion to the rank of an Air Commodore by the Air Board but was not approved by Zia, who in any case was supposed to be a rubber-stamping authority. No Chief, Shamim or Jamal had the moral fibre to tell me why. Would I then be wrong to conclude that it was my religion that came in the way?
Q. Does the Christian Community have faith in the future of Pakistan as a State, which is in line with the Founder of the nation’s speech of 11th August?
Not just the Christian Community but all the non-Muslim citizens are fighting for their rights as guaranteed by the Founder. We are totally disillusioned by what is happening to Pakistan. We created Pakistan, we are developing Pakistan, we fought gallantly for the defence of Pakistan against external enemies and now we are fighting against the internal enemies who are trying their utmost to destroy Pakistan.
Q. Has induction of Pakistani Christians in the Armed Forces particularly the Air Force increased or decreased from 1947 till 2000?
It has definitely decreased and there are a number of reasons for this. Because of gross discrimination against the minorities Christian youth have become demoralized and generally do not attempt to join the Armed Forces. Actually seeing highly professional officers being by-passed for higher promotions and eventually being superseded, thus asking early retirement, especially during the Zia era, has been a strong contributing factor. Lastly, a large number of educated Christian families have since migrated due to frustration.
Q. How would you compare the state of religious tolerance and equality of opportunity between India and Pakistan?
With deep regret I have to admit that there is no comparison. India is a proven secular country and the state of religious tolerance and equality is far better than that of Pakistan.
#860 Posted by Sanatani on January 17, 2007 5:46:33 am
Re: # 858
Absolutely brilliant.
Also consider the following list
What do the following have in common
Abdul Ghafoor
Anawara Taimur
AR Anatulay
MOH Farook
RK Theko
They are all muslims who became chief ministers of Hindu majority states Bihar, Assam, Maharashtra, Pondicherry and Manipur.
Not that I consider it an achievment. One thing I personally am thankful for to the post Shah bano backlash that these f**krs will never head a Hindu majority state again
Absolutely brilliant.
Also consider the following list
What do the following have in common
Abdul Ghafoor
Anawara Taimur
AR Anatulay
MOH Farook
RK Theko
They are all muslims who became chief ministers of Hindu majority states Bihar, Assam, Maharashtra, Pondicherry and Manipur.
Not that I consider it an achievment. One thing I personally am thankful for to the post Shah bano backlash that these f**krs will never head a Hindu majority state again
#859 Posted by VRV on January 17, 2007 5:42:18 am
Re: # 858
Majumdar,
Wow, that`s really great.
Btw, who`s the Kerala Christian in Bush administration who pushed India-US deal in the field of nuclear cooperation? One more born-again guy Bobby Jindal, the gubernatorial candidate for Lousiana (lost, of course but he`s the Republican candidate for Governor). Mr. Jindal was the youngest advisor to the US govt (in the field of medicne, I think) b4 he became the gubernatorial candidate.
What abt Mahesh Bhupathi and Leander Peas, Sania Mirza.....many more successful minorties?
I read that Salman Rushdie`s family migrated to the El Dorado and Salman worked for radio/TV of Pakistan in Karachi b4 he moved out of that country. Anyway now he identifies himself with India than with Pakistan. That`s more than eloquent.
Majumdar,
Wow, that`s really great.
Btw, who`s the Kerala Christian in Bush administration who pushed India-US deal in the field of nuclear cooperation? One more born-again guy Bobby Jindal, the gubernatorial candidate for Lousiana (lost, of course but he`s the Republican candidate for Governor). Mr. Jindal was the youngest advisor to the US govt (in the field of medicne, I think) b4 he became the gubernatorial candidate.
What abt Mahesh Bhupathi and Leander Peas, Sania Mirza.....many more successful minorties?
I read that Salman Rushdie`s family migrated to the El Dorado and Salman worked for radio/TV of Pakistan in Karachi b4 he moved out of that country. Anyway now he identifies himself with India than with Pakistan. That`s more than eloquent.
#858 Posted by majumdar on January 17, 2007 4:36:42 am
Manto mian,
Diff between Indian and Pakistani minorities.
Dr. Nazir S Bhatti- leading writer, world famous in Pakistan, Salman Rushdie writer - world famous in the whole world
Mary Lou radio personality world famous in Pakistan, Fareed Zakaria newsman- world famous in the whole world
Leon Menezes, HR Professionals world famous in Pakistan, Victor Menezes banker - world famous in the whole world
Spot the difference
Regards
Diff between Indian and Pakistani minorities.
Dr. Nazir S Bhatti- leading writer, world famous in Pakistan, Salman Rushdie writer - world famous in the whole world
Mary Lou radio personality world famous in Pakistan, Fareed Zakaria newsman- world famous in the whole world
Leon Menezes, HR Professionals world famous in Pakistan, Victor Menezes banker - world famous in the whole world
Spot the difference
Regards
#857 Posted by devkant on January 17, 2007 3:30:01 am
#856 by sanatani on January 17, 2007 2:45am PT
lets add to this list: -
field marshall sjf manechshaw,
mufti md syed,
barkatullah khan,
dr. manmohan singh,
gen jj singh,
gulam nabi azad,
Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed
captain arminder singh,
zakir hussain,
prakash singh badal,
pratap singh kairon,
giani zail singh,
Amin ud-din Ahmad Khan
monto bhaiya...unlike your pathetic list of non muslims in pakistan who have never gone beyond tokenism, the list of minority indians here are the ones who are either chief ministers of states, generals of the army, persident of the country or governer of the states.
in short, the buck stopped at them for their respective responsibilities.
the above list is not even complete. there are still more names that can be added. lets see you come up with something better.
rgds,
devkant.
lets add to this list: -
field marshall sjf manechshaw,
mufti md syed,
barkatullah khan,
dr. manmohan singh,
gen jj singh,
gulam nabi azad,
Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed
captain arminder singh,
zakir hussain,
prakash singh badal,
pratap singh kairon,
giani zail singh,
Amin ud-din Ahmad Khan
monto bhaiya...unlike your pathetic list of non muslims in pakistan who have never gone beyond tokenism, the list of minority indians here are the ones who are either chief ministers of states, generals of the army, persident of the country or governer of the states.
in short, the buck stopped at them for their respective responsibilities.
the above list is not even complete. there are still more names that can be added. lets see you come up with something better.
rgds,
devkant.
#856 Posted by Sanatani on January 17, 2007 2:45:38 am
Re: # 855
Let me add Gen SF rodigues name here and mantolies pls let us talk of min people of this level i.e. cabinet ministers of soem improtnt portfolios like home, defence, finance, railways or heads of states or heads of armed force services to whic I could also add
Admiral Ronnie Pereria and OS Dawson
Air Chief Marshalls Idris Latif, DA La Fontaine, Engineer, Arjan Singh, Dilbagh Singh,
Sanatani
Let me add Gen SF rodigues name here and mantolies pls let us talk of min people of this level i.e. cabinet ministers of soem improtnt portfolios like home, defence, finance, railways or heads of states or heads of armed force services to whic I could also add
Admiral Ronnie Pereria and OS Dawson
Air Chief Marshalls Idris Latif, DA La Fontaine, Engineer, Arjan Singh, Dilbagh Singh,
Sanatani
#855 Posted by devkant on January 17, 2007 1:59:02 am
854 - monto....now what do we do....produce a list of famous minorities in india?????
lets start with 3 names: -
1) K Anthony,
2) George Fernandes,
3) Dr. Kalam.
rgds,
devkant.
lets start with 3 names: -
1) K Anthony,
2) George Fernandes,
3) Dr. Kalam.
rgds,
devkant.
#854 Posted by MantoLives on January 17, 2007 12:42:03 am
Here are some famous Christians off the top of my head... they are certainly more than 15...
A R Cornelius the most admired Chief Justice of Pakistan and the founder of Cornelius Lane and Mufti, Pakistan`s number 1 law firm.
Cecil Chaudhry PAF GDP
Mervyn Middlecoat PAF GDP
Peter O Rieley PAF GDP Nishan-e-Jurat
Alexandar John Bishop
J. Salik - Popular christian leader and politician
General Julien Peters of the Pakistan Army
Jamshed Marker - Pakistan`s erstwhile representative to the UN
Mira Phailbus- Pakistan`s leading educationist
Michael Nazir Ali- Now Church of England
Joseph Felix- a leading Pakistani educationist
Joseph P Boota- leading Pakistani lawyer
Dr. Nazir S Bhatti- a leading writer
Mary Lou the famous Pakistani radio personality and wife of
Leon Menezes, one of Pakistan`s leading HR Professionals and a radio celebrity
Natasha De Souza, singer, actress par excellence from Karachi
Sunita Marshal,
The Benjamin sisters ..3 of them
Marjorie Hassan, a leading writer,
and her son, Mekaal Hassan, Pakistan`s godfather of music... both practising beliving christians.
Akram Masih Gill- PML Q leader
Mushtaq Victor - Federal minister, PML Q Leader
And these are just a few that have come to my mind... there are many more.. singers, musicians, writers etc...
Pakistani Hindus...
(I am leaving out scheduled castes for now)
1. Sobo Gianchandani, politician par excellence
2. Rana BhagwanDas Supreme court justice
3. Raja Trivedi Roy (though he converted to Buddhism at some point)
4. Deepak Parwani
5. Anil Dalpat
6. Danesh Parbharkar Kaneria
7. Ameet K. Jajothan
I have to go for Lunch... so I`ll complete this list later.
A R Cornelius the most admired Chief Justice of Pakistan and the founder of Cornelius Lane and Mufti, Pakistan`s number 1 law firm.
Cecil Chaudhry PAF GDP
Mervyn Middlecoat PAF GDP
Peter O Rieley PAF GDP Nishan-e-Jurat
Alexandar John Bishop
J. Salik - Popular christian leader and politician
General Julien Peters of the Pakistan Army
Jamshed Marker - Pakistan`s erstwhile representative to the UN
Mira Phailbus- Pakistan`s leading educationist
Michael Nazir Ali- Now Church of England
Joseph Felix- a leading Pakistani educationist
Joseph P Boota- leading Pakistani lawyer
Dr. Nazir S Bhatti- a leading writer
Mary Lou the famous Pakistani radio personality and wife of
Leon Menezes, one of Pakistan`s leading HR Professionals and a radio celebrity
Natasha De Souza, singer, actress par excellence from Karachi
Sunita Marshal,
The Benjamin sisters ..3 of them
Marjorie Hassan, a leading writer,
and her son, Mekaal Hassan, Pakistan`s godfather of music... both practising beliving christians.
Akram Masih Gill- PML Q leader
Mushtaq Victor - Federal minister, PML Q Leader
And these are just a few that have come to my mind... there are many more.. singers, musicians, writers etc...
Pakistani Hindus...
(I am leaving out scheduled castes for now)
1. Sobo Gianchandani, politician par excellence
2. Rana BhagwanDas Supreme court justice
3. Raja Trivedi Roy (though he converted to Buddhism at some point)
4. Deepak Parwani
5. Anil Dalpat
6. Danesh Parbharkar Kaneria
7. Ameet K. Jajothan
I have to go for Lunch... so I`ll complete this list later.
#853 Posted by arjun2 on January 16, 2007 11:20:31 pm
#850 by devkant on January 16, 2007 10:22pm PT
a few christians,
Mohd Yusuf?
a few christians,
Mohd Yusuf?
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