Moral Bankruptcy of Political Leadership in Pakistan

#169 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Cliftonbridge, the feudal lords, Bibi/baba etc did not have us on the brink of economic collapse. It was the US sanctions throughout the 90s which had Pakistan on the brink of collapse. Everything was of-course forgotten after 9/11.

Pakistan was economically much worse on 11 September 2001 than it was on 12 October 1999.

Read my FP article The Myth of Growth:Pakistan's Lost Opportunity

So give due credit to 9/11 (gyarhween shareef), and not musharraf.... !

Masadi sahib,

I presume you would believe that Mush and teh current Pak Army set up is anyways working on the behalf of the imperialist forces. So why bother removing one figurehead and place another. Might as well just blackmail/co-erce Mush into greater co-operation.

Regards

TAhmed sahab what made you say rf786's support for Mush was ethnically motivated? I think he made some really good points i dont think you should automatically dismiss them.

Pakistani's have the shortest attention spans ever, it wasnt so long ago that the feudal lords had us on the brink of economic collapse. And we'll be lucky if the next round of Bibi/baba works out any better. Doesnt help to start out denying the past.

#167 Zeemax writes "What do you read into that masadi?"

I read into it what I have been saying for months now and what was written at the end of 163:

"I think the "Musharraf" part of the game has reached its final turning point. The guy's goose is cooked.....literally..."

The US wants him out and the Pak Army will arrange it for them .........the Americans figure: what better way to remove his uniform than to cook his a$$... = )

#166 Posted by masadi,

Yes. Some US woman representative of the embassy was saying that they will not support 'uniform' if it stands in the way of elections.

What do you read into that masadi?

Ha ha, #163 below I wrote on Aug 3 that the deal has failed, and today August 5 both are hostile to each other in the open....and the issue, the Uniform......note #163 carefully again, there is something else that says which will come to pass soon enough....in all probability...

#158 Posted by abu_safwaan

[...lets try something different that has worked for other nations namely TRUE DEMOCRACY..not the Muslims Q kind. ]

It is not a coincidence that there is not a single Muslim country that has a true democracy. Turkey doesn't. Malayasia doesn't. The reason Turkey has a semi-Islamic government as opposed to a fully Islamic one is because Europe is right next door. The reason Malayasia has a quasi-democratic government is because it is 40% non-Muslim. All these Muslim countries have different cultures and different histories - but only two things in common - they are ALL Islamic, and ALL undemocratic.

The reason this is so is that in any Islamic country, for any opposition party, Islam becomes a convenient tool and a cause that they can get common people to rally around. In any democracy, there will always be lots of people with complaints and grievances. And these people's grievances can always be channelised in the cause of Islam, and the people can be easily rallied under the flag of Islam. The opposition leaders start playing on the people's Islamic sentiments - it is a cause that NOBODY dares to oppose. Pretty soon you have leaders trying to outdo each other in religious fervor - and it becomes a downward spiral from there.

This is not possible with ANY OTHER religion. It is only possible with Islam. And THIS IS WHY there will NEVER be any Islamic country with TRUE democracy.

This is the truth. This is how it is. Unfortunately. Regardless of whther I am a "damn Hindu" or a "Hater".

Re: # 158

Dear Abu Safwan Sahib

Agreed.

Musharraf's deal with the Americans (and their chosen prospect for Pakistani leadership, the BB) have failed. Today the Bushman called him to deliver a final warning about his insistance on keeping his uniform and being president at the same time. The Americans wont let their previous peon ruin the timetable they have set for their "Iran project". The crisis that will preempt that has to be manufactured by the ISI and the Pakistan Amry leadership, and the Musharraf-man is standing in the way of its smooth execution. I think the "Musharraf" part of the game has reached its final turning point. The guy's goose is cooked.....literally...

tahmed,

If you ever get over your anger, read my post #150. There, I provided you with what you had earliler asked for. So I am not sure what to make of your outburst in #151. I am tempted to guess that you did not read #150 and simply assumed what it said.

Khair. The very first revelation from Quran was “Iqra”. In the same spirit, I can only remind you: Read, idiot; read.

Portions of Abdus Salam's speech

"GAUGE UNIFICATION OF FUNDAMENTAL FORCES

Scientific thought and its creation is the common and shared heritage of mankind. In this respect, the history of science, like the history of all civilization, has gone through cycles. Perhaps I can illustrate this with an
actual example.

Seven hundred and sixty years ago, a young Scotsman left his native glens to travel south to Toledo in Spain. His name was Michael, his goal to live and work at the Arab Universities of Toledo and Cordova, where the
greatest of Jewish scholars, Moses bin Maimoun, had taught a generation before.

Michael reached Toledo in 1217 AD. Once in Toledo, Michael formed the ambitious project of introducing Aristotle to Latin Europe, translating not from the original Greek, which he did not know, but from the Arabic translation then taught in Spain. From Toledo, Michael travelled to Sicily,
to the Court of Emperor Frederick II.

Visiting the medical school at Salerno, chartered by Frederick in 1231, Michael met the Danish physician, Henrik Harpestraeng - later to become Court Physician of King Erik Plovpenning. Henrik had come to Salerno to compose his treatise on blood-letting and surgery. Henrik’s sources were the medical canons of the great clinicians of Islam, Al-Razi and Avicenna, which only Michael the Scot could translate for him.

Toledo’s and Salerno’s schools, representing as they did the finest synthesis of Arabic, Greek, Latin and Hebrew scholarship, were some of the most memorable of international assays in scientific collaboration. To
Toledo and Salerno came scholars not only from the rich countries of the East and the South, like Syria, Egypt, Iran and Afghanistan, but also from developing lands of the West and the North like Scotland and Scandinavia.
Then, as now, there were obstacles to this international scientific concourse, with an economic and intellectual disparity between different parts of the world. Men like Michael the Scot or Henrik Harpestraeng were singularities. They did not represent any flourishing schools of research in their own countries. With all the best will in the world their teachers at Toledo and Salerno doubted the wisdom and value of training them for advanced scientific research. At least one of his masters counselled young Michael the Scot to go back to clipping sheep and to the weaving of woollen cloth.

In respect of this cycle of scientific disparity, perhaps I can be more quantitative. George Sarton, in his monumental five-volume History of Science chose to divide his story of achievement in sciences into ages, each age lasting half a century. With each half century he associated one central
figure. Thus 450 BC - 400 BC Sarton calls the Age of Plato; this is followed by half centuries of Aristotle, of Euclid, of Archimedes and so on.

From 600 AD to 650 AD is the Chinese half century of Hsiian Tsang, from 650 to 700 AD that of I-Ching, and then from 750 AD to 1100 AD - 350 years continuously - it is the unbroken succession of the Ages of Jabir, Khwarizmi, Razi, Masudi, Wafa, Biruni and Avicenna, and then Omar Khayam - Arabs, Turks, Afghans and Persians - men belonging to the
culture of Islam. After 1100 appear the first Western names; Gerard of Cremona, Roger Bacon - but the honours are still shared with the names of Ibn-Rushd (Averroes), Moses Bin Maimoun, Tusi and Ibn-Nafi-the man who anticipated Harvey’s theory of circulation of blood. No Sarton
has yet chronicled the history of scientific creativity among the pre-Spanish Mayas and Aztecs, with their invention of the zero, of the calendars of the ‘moon and Venus and of their diverse pharmacological discoveries, including quinine, but the outline of the story is the same - one of undoubted superiority to the Western contemporary correlates.

After 1350, however, the developing world loses out except for the occasional flash of scientific work, like that of Ulugh Beg - the grandson of Timurlane, in Samarkand in 1400 AD; or of Maharaja Jai Singh of Jaipur in 1720 - who corrected the serious errors of the then Western tables of
eclipses of the sun and the moon by as much as six minutes of arc. As it was, Jai Singh’s techniques were surpassed soon after with the development of the telescope in Europe. As a contemporary Indian chronicler wrote: “With him on the funeral pyre, expired also all science in the East.”
And this brings us to this century when the cycle begun by Michael the Scot turns full circle, and it is we in the developing world who turn to the Westwards for science. As Al-Kindi wrote 1100 years ago: “It is fitting then
for us not to be ashamed to acknowledge and to assimilate it from whatever source it comes to us. For him who scales the truth there is nothing of higher value than truth itself; it never cheapens nor abases him.”

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is in the spirit of Al-Kindi that I start my lecture with a sincere expression of gratitude to the modern equivalents of the Universities of Toledo and Cordova, which I have been privileged to be associated with Cambridge, Imperial College, and the Centre at Trieste.

Interesting:

"Abdus Salam's speech at the Nobel Banquet, December 10, 1979

Your Majesties, Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen,

On behalf of my colleagues, Professor Glashow and Weinberg, I thank the Nobel Foundation and the Royal Academy of Sciences for the great honour and the courtesies extended to us, including the courtesy to me of being addressed in my language Urdu.

Pakistan is deeply indebted to you for this.

The creation of Physics is the shared heritage of all mankind. East and West, North and South have equally participated in it. In the Holy Book of Islam, Allah says

"Thou seest not, in the creation of the All-merciful any imperfection, Return thy gaze, seest thou any fissure. Then Return thy gaze, again and again. Thy gaze, Comes back to thee dazzled, aweary."

This in effect is, the faith of all physicists; the deeper we seek, the more is our wonder excited, the more is the dazzlement for our gaze.

I am saying this, not only to remind those here tonight of this, but also for those in the Third World, who feel they have lost out in the pursuit of scientific knowledge, for lack of opportunity and resource.

Alfred Nobel stipulated that no distinction of race or colour will determine who received of his generosity. On this occasion, let me say this to those, whom God has given His Bounty. Let us strive to provide equal opportunities to all so that they can engage in the creation of Physics and science for the benefit of all mankind. This would exactly be in the spirit of Alfred Nobel and the ideals which permeated his life. Bless You!

GT writes " Are you saying that the whole SC episode is a poodle dance "

Yes that is what I was saying all along, it was Army sponsored, Army executed and Army decided....the whole shebang, though in the midst it did achieve a dynamic of its own among a limited segment. The article I posted was proof in so far as history shows institutional regularity, and there was nothing in the current episode that would prove a "structure changing" revolution...

Arif Bhai,

its not dictatorship thats the issue, its incompetence and corruption and not just of the financial kind either. If any of the dictators that we have been awarded with had the moral character to rid or even tried to break the status-quo by taking meaningful steps to abolish slavery of jageerdars, tried to eliminate the prevalent class system, demolished or just tried demolishing evil bureaucracy and instead of sleeping with the corrupt and thali kayy baygan syasatdaan to just prolong their dicatorship and actually did something to improve the sorry conditions of masses, believe u me pakistani nation wouldnt be this turned off by the name musharaf.

its not that civilians would be much better, its the fact that for the past 60 years we have been trying armed forces at the helm of affairs, how can it be any worse, lets try something different that has worked for other nations namely TRUE DEMOCRACY..not the Muslims Q kind.

good article...

Re: # 148

Deedee

Says who? Regurgigating western propganda does not make it right. Hitler and El Prezidento Bush elected democracies both can be proud of their human right achievements. Its all relative, that maybe difficult for your monolithic mindset to comprehend.