The Irreverent Hero Islam Forgot

Ref MantoLives #384

[Yawn. Now you are sounding like a broken record.]

Gandhi was a caste-ist fascist racist pig.

Eklavya,

When a Shankaracharya visits a dalit locality to baptize a temple, does that mean the Shankaracharya has assumed responsibility over the religious lives of the population along with the temple/God or he just merely emphasizes that he is just the care-taker of God and he has nothing to do with the worshippers.

If the notion, Shakarar thinks for the worshippers too, is right, then can we conclude that the worshippers would not hate to see one of them occupying the coveted post?

guru, nkg, cheem sahib

You all made very good points. Essentially, I am a very optimistic person, and know that so long as the direction is right, and we keep moving and changing ahead, we will reach our goals. (Thumbs up to all of you).

Re: # 372 Ekji,

Quickly: India has changed! The crux you missed was Upanayan part in my post. Pendulum moved to extreme of westernization few years back but now younger generation is in search of roots and true spirituality. Sanatan Dharma (hate to use hinduism because it is not a religion or dogma started by an individual) answers their questions without being dogmatic.

dont know much about Shankaracharya except some dispute Chatrapati Shivaji had in installing a lwer caste as a Shankaracharya of Kolhapur. As I recall to be a Shankaracharya one needs to be a celebate thru out ones life. You asking Harijan to be Shankaracharya is like asking Dalai Lama to be chosen from White Plains New York and not from Snowy Maountains in Asia. They choose lama based on revelation to the earlier Lama. With my limited level of consciousness I do not understand their selection process. Should I make a big deal of that? Does this Shankaracharya affects me? Does he send fatwas for me to act upon? Why should I care who is vice-chancellor of the university which me or my kids are not going to attend?

My own exposure to Sanatan Dharma / Hinduism was through the rituals (4 fasts per week and extreme religiosity) of my mother. Got little understanding of the philosophy and reasons behind those when read and interacted with Swami chinmayananda and his disciples. The ritual which I followed of fasting and going to Hanuman temple on Saturday, started at age 7 as a prayer for the quick recovery of neighbor/friend's mother. She was suffering from cancer. Rituals start for most of us in this innocuous way. Now I cannot give that up. As a teen I could safely hide behind Hanuman and not deal with raw sexual desires and later sublimate into hobbies and interests. Whenever I stopped fasting some weird melancholy set in.

Sanatan Dharma is association with Swami Chinmayananda starting from 78 in Pawai, Mumbai, hugs and company of Ma Amrutananda, bhiksha my wife gives to assorted swamis when they visit our part of the world, introduction to TM and wonderful westerners in the fold and most importantly Bikram Yoga. I have my own rope tied to my neck. As Cheema conveyed what is the point in trading that for someone else's, which might look sexy at this moment. When the talk of religion stops true spirituality begins. I should be only be concerned for next Dharana-Dhyan-Samadhi so that I set myself free atleast for some time.

"
Ma Amritananda once described ego like this: "There was a cowherd boy who took his cows to the meadows every morning and brought them back to the cowshed at the end of the day. One evening, as he was tying the cows up for the night, the boy found that one of them was missing her rope. He feared that she might run away, but it was too late to go and buy a new rope. The boy didn't know what to do, so he went to a wise man who lived nearby and sought his advice. The wise man told the boy to pretend to tie the cow, and make sure that the cow saw him doing it. The boy did as the wise man suggested and pretended to tie the cow. The next morning the boy discovered that the cow had remained still throughout the night. He untied all the cows as usual, and they all went outside. He was about to go to the meadows when he noticed that the cow with the missing rope was still in the cowshed. She was standing on the same spot where she had been all night. He tried to coax her to join the herd, but she wouldn't budge. The boy was perplexed. He went back to the wise man who said, "The cow still thinks she is tied up. Go back and pretend to untie her." The boy did as he was told, and the cow happily left the cowshed.

This is what the guru does with the ego of the disciple. The guru helps untie that which was never there. Like the cow, due to our ignorance, we believe that we are bound by the ego when, in fact, we are completely free. We need to be convinced of this, however".

As there are not many guru's like that in Western Culture, we can help each other Let Go of what really is not there. The only commitment to allow such a process is an intent for "gnothi seauton",...Gnow Thyself.

Vicente Marco © 2002, 2005

"

BTW, RSS/DnyanPrabhodini trains lower castes and women to become priests. Many women priests conduct marriages and cremation sanskar. (Ch. Shahu started this 100 years back. Himself became Sanskrit scholar.) There is a movement in making people aware of all the Sanskars one has to go thru in ones life, so that a person can enter into different phases of life knowingly and with commitment for some values. Wish I was born 30 years later. When I see these youngsters I see a pleasant dawn of real India.

Hope all these personal things help some one. I need to stop visiting chowk.

Re: # 363

Yawn. Now you are sounding like a broken record.

Re: # 378
Ekalavya...
These Sankaracharya are just kind of leaders of some obsolete group. Why don't you join R K Mission ( Ramakrishna Mission)? Once you are sanyasi ( after 7 years of Brahmacharya), you will get some name like Swami XXXananda....No previous life...
Brahmins of yesteryear used to be called as Dwija ( born twice). When you complete Brahmacharya, you are sage ( Swami)...

Re: # 380; Eklavya

I'd be honoured to meet you and tahmed both; that may not be as far fetched as you think!

Gotta go

Re: # 356 Tahir

who stepped on your 'poochhal' today paaji?

Cheema ji, since there is no sufi here around, we can safely confess that at the end of the day, we all face fairly similar problems, and respond in fairly similar ways. For all our 'differences' if tahmedji, you, and I (or some other friends from chowk) had occasion to meet we will get just along perfectly.

---------------

That sufi reference is a bit of private joke. I have deliberately built a little history of determinedly rejecting all sufi claims of 'sameness' just so we take another look at a few of our basic assumptions. :):)

Re: # 370; Eklavya:
"tahmedji, I wish things were as simple or as good as that".

I rest my case sir. the above applies not just to Hinduism but other man-made religious traditions just the same, 'semitic/abrahamic' nonsense no exception (btw, most bog-standard Muslims wouldn't have a clue what 'Abrahamic' is! or the connection with Judaism/Christianity etc; this is a old concept recently re-introtuced by the West and Muslims alike; 'the west' so they can keep this nonsense under some control; Muslims because it gives them a sense of satisfaction that they 'belong' to the group of the HAVES of the world, albeit going through a bad phase at present!).

My advice as a well-wisher is, if you are dis-illusioned or disgruntled with your ancestoral traditions, don't try to find solace in another; from a practical viewpoint things may not be much different when you get down to the nitty gritty. That is why converts always appear more enthusiastic because they are trying to justify their decision not just to the world around them, but more importantly to themselves (it is obvious and well known that more than 98% of individuals continue to believe in the nonsense they have been taught since childhood; some 'so-called enlightened' folk delude themselves by 're-interpreting' this same nonsense to make some sense out of it; it retains its original label/title though!).

Best to rely upon one's own metal in this world, I reckon. Use the brain one has been given by nature through millions of years of evolution (OR from a fairy from a parallel universe - depends which version one 'believes' I suppose).

I don't know the 'answer' to the big 'question' any more than any other from the human species; may be it IS 42! Just don't think Zaphod Beeblebrox is any better in that respect than yourself!

Again (before someone jumps down my throat again), believe in Santa Clause for all I care, just don't hold your breath with regards to your wishes though!

Sorry for a slightly dis-jointed post, very busy at present. Must rush but will talk soon when I have more time.

Cheers.

ajeya, it is true that my lower caste associations might give me a little chip on my shoulders, but should you (or any one of us) be surprised by that?

That's the point I tried to make earlier about Baba Sahib too.


[Shankaracharayas don't mean anything much to me, beyond than the knowledge and wisdom they bring with them. I am only interested the position's symbolic value. Yes, I dream of a dalit shankaracharya one day - because the tradition itself is too valuable to be given up and without my lower caste brothers on it it is too denuded of humanity to REALLY win my personal admiration.

I admire it, but not TOTALLY, as teenagers might say.]

Now, you may argue all this is teenager logic anyway. I have no problem with being a teenager with dreams on matters so important to all of us. :)

#373 tahmed32

[More seriously - too much of what passes as "religion" is merely primitive culture. It is only the core that makes sense and is timeless. Thus: 200 years ago, maulvis in Turkey were up in arms because the ottoman caliph was being pushed by the UK govt (in turn due to lobbying by Abolitionists in UK) to end the custom of slavery (which included open markets for female slaves sold as concubines). The maulvis were up in arms against this saying the practice of concubines is permitted in Islam and this was an attack on Islam.

Time passed, Turkish culture evolved so women are no longer sold and today no maulvi would dream of considering female slaves to be part of Islam. Same for hinduism.

So, just be happy that you are a hindu who through the powers of his common sense has freed himself from the shackels of the past and so does not need to look at the "greener grass" on other pastures ... and is thus a Shankaracharya. ]

A good and sensible post. But let me correct a typical Abrahamic way of thinking:

If you are referring to Hindu "culture" as Hindu "religion", then your post is accurate. But if you are referring to hindu "philosophy" as Hindu "religion", then your post is not. If you take the time to read the Hindu philosophers (the philosphies of Dualism, non-Dualism etc.), you will find that they are based on incisive, non-dogmatic arguments, and have very little to do with what passes for "hindu culture". You are free to argue and disagree, and NO ONE BELONGS TO IT. It is just philosophy - a way of looking at and analyzing the world. It is a far cry from djinns swooshing around and muhammad riding his horse over the moon.

While it is true that human nature and thus human culture in different parts of the world have a lot in common with each other, hindu philosophy and the Abrahamic philosophies (or the lack thereof) have little in common.

#370 Eklavya

[We must work to be able to offer EVERYONE who prepares himself or herself through learning and other commitments the SAME respect, not deprive them because of some "caste restrictions" that more and more Hindus now find silly, at least ideally.]

Would you like to give us an example of ANY ONE "low-caste" hindu who "prepared himself or herself through learning and other commitments", but were "deprived" because of caste restrictions?

[My guess is that to be formally one has to be a brahmin to be nominated a Shankaracharya. The position doesn't mean much to many many Hindus, but it is important symbolically.]

See my previous question to you about "nomination".

[As I said, if my grandfather heard me say this, he would have thrown a fit, but then he lived at a different time, and we live in a new time. At least I can dream :)]

Yes. Like the Martin Luther "I have a Dream" speech. You are not fooling anyone with this father/grandfather story. It is pretty clear that you are the prototypical "low-caste" hindu chowk-resident with a very big chip on your shoulders.

#372 Eklavya

[guru ji, if Hinduism is the religion of people, then it has to be the religion of the 'lower castes.' So obviously, it is the lower-caste sages who have kept us alive and going.

But I just want to be able to formally see one of them nominated a shankaracharya...It will a great symbolic thing, and will obviously upset many many good people, just because it has never been done before :)]

I am not sure what you are saying from your "lower caste hindu" perspective, so would you do me a favour and give us some historic references for these "nominations" that you are talking about?

Then maybe I'll have a better understanding of your perspective. Because, as of now, I don't have a clue.

Thanks tahmedji, if not myself, at least I can campaign to make vengat or my friend muthu shankaracharyas if they would like to consider that position. :)

[I know, this idea might be upsetting some friends. Apologies in advance. It's a dream some of us want to dream.]

#370 Shankaracharya Elavya Bhai: I trust you are not a brahmin and yet you are a Shankaracharya. I rest my case. :-)

More seriously - too much of what passes as "religion" is merely primitive culture. It is only the core that makes sense and is timeless. Thus: 200 years ago, maulvis in Turkey were up in arms because the ottoman caliph was being pushed by the UK govt (in turn due to lobbying by Abolitionists in UK) to end the custom of slavery (which included open markets for female slaves sold as concubines). The maulvis were up in arms against this saying the practice of concubines is permitted in Islam and this was an attack on Islam.

Time passed, Turkish culture evolved so women are no longer sold and today no maulvi would dream of considering female slaves to be part of Islam. Same for hinduism.

So, just be happy that you are a hindu who through the powers of his common sense has freed himself from the shackels of the past and so does not need to look at the "greener grass" on other pastures ... and is thus a Shankaracharya.