17 August 1988

zia did not have the remotest connection with 25 cavalry .

he was told to take over 22 Cavalry .

Every few months I check out Chowk to see if there is anything interesting going on.

fuzair: good to see you back on chowk.

what you write about Zia's personal life is the same as what a late uncle of mine (who was Zia's roommate when they were junior officers) also confirmed - i.e. he did not hang out at the officers mess with other officers and was given to saying his prayers. nor did my uncle ever mention Zia drinking.

Some basic corrections, if I may be so allowed:

Zia was sent to Jordan as head of the Pakistani Military Training Mission there, not to command an IS brigade. The Pakistanis are supposed to have planned Black September for the Jordanians, not sure about this but likely to be true. The GoC 2nd Inf. Div. resigned his commission (although an East Banker, he was married to a Palestinian) in the middle of battle and Zia stepped in and took over as GoC on his own initiative before the already confused and muddled Jordanians screwed things up completely (although, given PakArmy performance in 1965 and 1971, I'm one to talk!). This is why King Hussein was eternally grateful to him.

Zia was G1 Ops in Multan with the Armoured Div but not slated to command a unit, the professional kiss of death. Gul Hassan sacked the CO of 25 Cav (I think that was the unit; Zia's laDlas later on) for his units miserable performance and told Zia to take over. That is what saved him.

Zia was ALWAYS personally devout and a misfit in the Mess as a junior officer; would hang out with JCOs, etc. He NEVER drank but was always a chamcha of the highest order. The rumours of him being a secret drinker are nonsense. I've even heard that idiot Sumit Ganguly repeat them on NPR.

Regards.

Re: # 22

I find this hard to believe but will take your word for it.

But somehow subtle interaction with Foreign Millitary attaches in Delhi and Amman left me with entirely a different perspective.

Casualties in Kargil in Officers was nowhere close to Indians and neither in any of the other 3 wars. It has no history of strategically imaginative ops like Siachen (which incidentally was concieved at the battalion level confirmed at brigade and hen cleared at AHQ).

Also unlike the Prussians the only other army with a state the Pak army has never had an extremely high personal code of conduct moral, ethical and profesional as defined by the existing times.

Sanatani

#25 ....yes..but...moreover...however...

...the standards of the pakistan military, are quite good at the enlisted and lower ranks.......and are significantly poor at the higher ranks....anyone who does not realize this has not seen the military from the inside, or has not seen much of the outside world.....

......you can divide the pakistan military into three groups: enlisted, lieutenant to colonel (flying officer to wing commander in paf etc.) brigadier and above.....

.....from a purely fighting point of view, the first group is dedicated, honest, brave, poorly paid with little part in any of the corruption etc. associated with the pakistan military.......this group constitutes 90% (?) or more of the military.....

...the second group is dedicated, generally honest, brave.....relatively poorly paid, also, with little part in the corruption associated with the military....this group has one problem, in that, it is heavily indoctrinated and has very little knowledge of the world outside the military.....

....the third group is where the problem starts.....this group is quite incompetent, corrupt, self-centered, heavily indoctrinated and is a huge beneficiary of the legalized corruption that is now a big part of the military.....

.......for a long time, the military, itself, remained relatively immune from this third group.......while the rest of pakistan suffered due to it.......however, now the military has, itself, as an insitution been impacted, heavily, by the incompetency and civilian adventures of the third group.....

there are, at any one time, around 125 army generals, 20-25 paf generals and a smaller amount of navy generals......it is this group of 160 or so people who decide the destiny of pakistan....specifically those generals who are in the army.....this is the real national assembly of pakistan.....

the rest of the military (about 550,000 people) are, basically, the awam of the army......contrary to popular belief, lt. col and below do not have a very good lifestyle, have little chance to indulge in corruption, etc.....

this, however, changes the moment one becomes a brigadier.....only a tiny % become brigadiers and generals......however, they, then, own the country....

the biggest asset the military has - specifically the army - is that it always protects its own, and never splits.....look at how they have taken care of musharraf.....

i have always stated on this site that it the political parties stay united, they can sort out the army very easily.....they united on musharraf - the icon of military power in pakistan - and within two weeks he was gone.......

its not that difficult........however, the political parties in pakistan are prone to divisions.......which is why the military always dominates them, even though the military, as per rules is supposed to be subordinate to them........

Re: # 3
Pavo, Arjun...
That means, CoAS is a political post than professional military one. No distinction between civil administration and military...Is it based on Islamic principle?

Yes, there was disillusionment due to lack of logistic planning, aims and the disowned nature of conflict.

Ijaz sahib,

I remember Amin sahib writing somehwere that the young officers got completely disillusioned after Kargil. Is that right?

Regards

Sanatani,
I do not agree. I attended a military seminar in Singapore in 1999. It was called Pacific Armies Military Seminar in which the entire NATO countries and 36 besides them took part. Two officers a brigadier and colonel represented Pakistan. They were apparently the most creative and articulate. The standard of young officers still remains very high in the army. Their casualty ratio in Kargil and FATA compared to oveall casualties is very high.
The problem arises with the courses related to vertical mobilisation. That is where stereotypes begin to form and brilliants like Agha Amin get weeded out for being non conformists. All officers attending foreign courses do extremely well.

I have had chance to read books written for Military Stategy of many countries. Both India and Pakistan have nearly the same scripts and stereotypes. I could best describe them as funnel visioned.

In my post to my Bhra Zeemax I had said that the avrage Panju muslai is fit only to be a subedar and that too a crude boorish thuggish bully. Pavo has confirmed my opinion that the Bak army lacks calibre in their officers. This was told to me by a retired Indian army officer who was unofficially shown a report made by the Israelis on the Pak army much before Zia's death. This is what had prompted brasstacks and had it succeeded the rogue nation would have ceased to exist in it present form. (CIA had a high level mole in the Indian army and tipped Bak off).

Having said that the calibre of the Indian army's officer corp is good but not gr8 due to the same reasons mentioned here. However in the Indian army the calibre of some officers is exceptional the kind apart from the Israelis no one has. It is painful to say this but the calibre of the Indian army's Muslim officers is frighteningly great i.e. on a ratio basis they (no of great to good to useless) are the best in the Indian army better than the Maratha, Sikh, Jat, Dogra and Madrasis. I am not including Rajputs as while uniformly brave they lack the killer instinct of the above mentioned few.

And the reason is not surprising the Only Muslims who ruled in India are the Bhaiya Muslims and the one off amongst them who joins the army does only and only out of patriotism.

It is any wonder that Zaki and Jamil Mahmood (incidentally the youngest ever Lt General in the Indian army who tragically died in a helicopter crash and would otherwise have made chief)are universally revered officers in the army.

Our problem is that our (political leadership) is lacking testicular fortitude towards people generally lacking testicular fortitude.

Sanatani

Agha Amin Sahib

Why the pot shot at BCCI and Agha Hasan Abedi? Assuming Zia had the CIA in his pocket then why deal with small fry (BCCI)? Can you kindly elaborate. Thanks

"perhaps born in mid seventies, that right after Jordan."

that explains why he became very religious. leadership is always higher consciousness than those who are lead.

In fact it is us collectively ask for our leadership, mostly subconsciously/subliminally etc. Trillions and trillions of living being and even those non-living ask for Sun to live and provide energy and it does day after day. It's almost like a dream we collectively are engineering/creating.

Spiritualization broadens the mind but looking at Zaid Hamid it seems there is some thing in Shanti (aka Islam in arabic) that either makes one melancholic, angry and life hating. Why this guy does not have smile on his face.

The lady Hina miraj is goddess like. Indians will hesitate nuking bakiland because of her. This Zaid guy can shoot us hiding behind her.

when was he in Jordan?

Given that she was about 14 in 1988, perhaps born in mid seventies, that right after Jordan.