Through Bloodshed and Tears

Jang...
I have seen one of my college professors (in Civil Engineering Department). He had compltede his PhD in Univ of Wisconcin (in early 60s). While in Department, he used to be dressed as pure professor and hardly used to interact with students in Bengali. While at home, he used to be pure Bong Brahmin ( white dhoti...morning puja etc...)...

laddu bhai, understandably we both individually and collectively are hurt as much as anyone else is when our specific religious practices and beliefs are ridiculed. So I apologize if I gave any other impression.

But you know perfectly well the kind of society we will end up with if we among ourselves began to take away our own freedom to criticize (even ridicule) our own beliefs. To be able to openly disagree with others and to dismiss others' beliefs is fundamental to who we were, are, and want to be.

But one understand the context in which your concern arose. We are all trying to struggle with the same dilemma - trying to find the right balance that doesn't change us fundamentally while still protects all that is important to us.

Don't lose patience, laddu bhai. I have a feeling we will find a way - a good balance.

My sentiments were echoed by other practicing hindus are well - this is from TOI

R.K.Bagchi, Hyderabad, says: Only cawards attack Hinhuism, since they are sure of no reprisals...A Crowning Cawardice Mr Karunanidhi ?
[6 Nov, 2008 2008hrs IST]

Sumesh, India, says: If he has guts, mention the same to Muslims to remove beard, cap, wearing burkha. I would love to hear that and see the consequences too.
[6 Nov, 2008 2007hrs IST]

Swami, Chennai, says: Will Mr. MK ask the muslims the rational behind wearing the cap in their head and will he explain why he and his party leaders wear the cap during Ramzan parties?
[6 Nov, 2008 1956hrs IST]

GCLODHA, MUMBAI, says: Please ask C.M. of Tamilnadu that his relegious demands applicable to other relegion's followers.
[6 Nov, 2008 1955hrs IST]

Re: # 25

kaal ji,

I was putting karunanidhi's remark in a different context and then evaluating whether he would have dared to make this remark..........

it is like someone asking muslims not to circumcise themselves and carry the mark of covenant with their Allah on their bodies.

laddu

What nonsense is that! Please cool down. Our history is full of great men who criticized tilak and janeyu (and everything else). Why should anyne 'take their head off'?!

This taking head off appraoch is totally contradictory to the ego-less philosophy you youself believe in, laddu. Let's not even think along those lines because that would be completely unIndian.

I bet if DMK goon like Karunanidhi were to make a remark regarding 5 K-s like he did regarding tilak and janeyu then his head would have been immediately off!

Actually, these gundas pick on easy targets , because Hindus are the most tolerate when it comes to their religious practices.

Actually some Sikh should have come forward and volunteered to take off the head of that karunanidhi goon.

Re: # 14

"...You should stop wearing the janeu or tilak when you go to work for your MNC if you want to move with the modern times..."

Jang ji,

You cannot have double standards with respect to religious practices an symbols of non-sikhs.

If sikhs should be allowed to wear 5 k-s then every hindu has a right to his tilak and janaeyu.

There is no way you can justify 84 riot.
I can recall some events in South Bengal. People looted Gurudwara money in West Bengal for the sake of looting. Those were CPI(M) supported goons, who enjoyed the killing of Congress leader from the money they have looted from Gurudwara....double whammy...it was just simple loss of human sanse....

Re: # 14
Jang...
You know, my room mate was Brahmin and often used his janeu to support mosquito net...this sacret thread has no meaning today...
Today, if you are Professor at a University, you are real Upadhyay brahmin, not the Bihari/UP Upadhyay-ji ( last name), who is cleaning public toilets of Delhi/Mumbai....


I am not against the 5Ks of Sikhs. But, if you are in such a situation that people misunderstand your dress/symbols, it is better avoid it...in Jasmin Deshe Jadachara ( while in Rome do as Romans do)...

Re: # 13
delhi...
you need not believe existing caste system in present context......

some of the useless rituals we bongs ( may be others also follow) during marriage that if you go deep into it, you will feel very ashamed; but then it is kept for ritualistic purpose....no real intention...

#18 Posted by majumdar on November
No doubt good point.

You are right, they are Brahmins (though Mehtas can be both Brahmin and Baniya, so I am not sure about Mehtas of Torrent).

But as you will see I am trying to generalize millions of people:-). And in that case generalization should be close to overall/general truth.

If you collect random samples of Brahmins of say 1000 familes each from different parts of India, you will see that in many cases if they owned land sometime back, they have lost it (and they never utilized it properly), those who owned small businesses have lost businesses, and most of them are relying on jobs, government or whatever, teaching etc. You can say that it is true for all middle class people in India, but you can see the difference in numbers if you check how Kshtriyas and Vaishya community either utilized land better or kept their businesses going in more cases. And Sikhs and Punjabis have done extremly well in agriculture and business respectively.

The difference in attitude is there, even though you can find significant numbers of individuals who are exceptions. There is an attitudinal difference caste/sect and even region wise, which comes out of particular sub-culture or group-psychology.

I think that in case of humans hardware is never that different in a given period (say, 100 years), it is software that creates major/minor differences.

What is so good with Gujaratis, that they own so many motels in USA? What is so good in telgus that they end up in USA even if they graduated from some xyz college (while north-indian are less capable of landing in USA even if they are frombetter college); I am not saying coming to USA is an achievement, but again it is the difference/degree that is important here.


Everything is made up of energy, but things are different depending upon how this energy is constrained to create different particles, atoms, molecules, substances:-) (This was just to ensure that I look a complete idiot as my above lengthy discussion may not have proved that:-))

Pinku,

But because they are not that capable of generating wealth, Brahmins

What caste are the founders of Infosys, what caste are Iyengars of the TVS group or the Mehtas of Torrent, if I may ask?

Regards

Ke ho gayo bhai...?

Sikhs are an excellent sect. They are extremely courageous much more than most others, they don't go by status and can adopt any profession with equal sincerity and diligence. Only thing that has become slightly bad with them is that they started taking religion a bit seriously. Which is always wrong (religion is almost always good for nothing).

I can compare Sikhs with Brahmins, Brahmins are very few in number, very few of them are rich, most of them are poor or middle class, but their intellectual presence is immense, more than any other sect. But because they are not that capable of generating wealth, Brahmins as a community remain poor and they can not raise the living standard of their community because of lack of money (but they can and they always become good teachers, good intelectuals and so on, but that doesn't bring lot of money money, nor it produces lot of products??)

On the other hand, Sikhs go equally for all professions, they can excel in anything and are capable of generating wealth out of their hard work. So they can always raise living standard of their community.

This is how psychology of a Brahmin (even if an idiot) and a Sikh (even if subdued) differ. But both are good for society, if they live together. They are complimentary. But as no caste is needed, no religion is needed, in future the good qualities should merge. We don't need Brahmins as a sect who are either dumb or pursue intellect/art in a crazy way, even if they are poor. Be Budhdhist there, like Chinese, some individuals will behave like Brahmins and that will be goood enough. Let individuals be free to pursue their ideas, skills individually and not as per caste/sect.

What Indians need to do is: to merge their castes harmonioulsy, a Brahmin should marry a so called low caste... so a normal psychology can quickly generate... a son of a Brahmin and Shudra will neither be over-confident nor be too-diffident just because of his caste:-)

hmmm will have to create an ilog out of this, the easiest way to create an ilog

cool al, DMK goons have taken over madras and ltte has taken over jaffna. shit happens.

Sorry to be so blunt and I also ask this with the utmost respect.

Why did the Sikh Community allow Bindranwale to occupy the Akal Takth and use the Harmandir Sahib's premises to store 50 caliber machine guns, AK-47s, explosives etc.?

Was it not a foregone conclusion as to what would happen? Regardless of the politics played by Indira Gandhi in promoting Bindranwale?

How can the Sikh community scream about the sanctity of the golden temple being desecrated by the Indian Army when they themselves allowed it to be desecrated without as much as a protest by Bindranwale?

I don't remember now but the raid was into the temple was lead by sikh soldiers of the Indian Army was it not? Also, Bindranwale was given adequate time to vacate the premises. The raid did not happen without warning.

I find it hard to believe that Sikhs were ever discriminated against in India. In fact, compared to other states they were the most pampered community. Punjab and its people were looked at with awe in South India. Their culture and food were accepted as something to aspire to for the rest of the country. Bollywood was in love with Punjabi culture. How can anyone believe that Sikhs were discriminated against?

I think it was a superiority complex that allowed sikhs to be manipulated by Pakis to create trouble in India. The fact is a section of the population allowed themselves to be manipulated into terrorism. Eventually the sikhs themselves solved the problem led by KPS Gill. But I still hear all this anguish from one section of the people. I find that a pity.

Please someone put this into perspective for me. I am just a dumb South Indian trying to understand a part of history I saw unfold on TV.

NKG sikhs SHOULD wear 5 Ks. otherwise they are not sikhs. its modern world that needs be more tolerant of sikh dress-code, not the other way around. 5K are simple tokens, do not offend or discriminate. You should stop wearing the janeu or tilak when you go to work for your MNC if you want to move with the modern times. if the modern world is tolerant of the hippies and low-waist jeans on fat buttocks, it better be comfortable with the sikh attire.

the day sikhs cease to be sikhs will be a huge loss to the religious diversity of this planet.