Why are Pakistanis so Foreign? It’s the Americans’ Fault!

Why are the Pakistans so foreign? It`s the Americans`!`` is something, I feel, was written in confused desperatiuon. I am not saying this as a put-down because I too, have been in the same annoying questioning mood many times when I couldn`t find the answers to things that bugged me.

I like the old American Indian cliche, ``Don`t criticze a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.`` Better yet, I like the code myfather taught me to live by. ``Don`t criticize a man until you have sat in his chair and ponderedd why he thinks the way he doess and how/why he developed his philosoph of why things wwork or should work.

I think the best REPLY was from Meeko with the reference to overpopulation. Increasing the population of any country is done quietly and discretely. Even thos involvedd don`t know the resuslts until later.

Twenty-five to thirty years ago I picked the following from a TV Program concerning China and its educational system. ``China has 164 thousand kindergartens; 900 thousand Primary Schools; 160 thousand Middle Schools and 589 Colleges and Universities. However, 6 percent of China`s children will never go to school and 12 percent of those who get through Primary School will never go to Middle School; 50 percent of those that do, never finish. Less than 5 percent will ever go to college and 3 percentof those that do, never finish.``

This is true of any country that is overpopulated including the United States. If you want to see poor kids that can`t go to decent school in the United States, travel through the statesof Louisiana, Georgia, Kentucky and Virginia, just to name a few quickly. We are told that there isn`t enough money to build the schools and supply the teachers and medical attention required. Thi is pure undiluted political hogwash. We had immediate money to fight Desert Storm over oil; We had immediate money for Kosovo and Foreign Aid. Why not immediate money for our own schools and people? Do you have these problems in Pakistan? I guess so. But at least, China is doing something about its

population explosion.

Being concerned with overpopulation isn`t anything new. More than 200 years ago Thomas Robert Malthus (1766-1824), apioneer in modern population studies, an economist and a sociologist, wrote a paper in 1798, Asay on the Principle of Population``. He contended that poverty and distress are unavoidable because population increases faster than the means of subsistence. As a check on population

growth he thought the only checks were war, famine and disease. After much heat from the Churches he revised his paper in 1803 and added, ``Moral resttraint as an additional curtailment to overpopulation.`` Butmoral restraint did not work then, it doesn`t work today and it never will. To control the sex drive of the world is an impossibility.

Dr. Stephen Mumford heads the Center for Research on Population and security (http://www.population-security.org/intro.htm) He is a leading researcher and writer on population issues. He has published six books and 89 articles on the subject. Dr. Mumford says the Catholic Church hierarchy thwarted efforts to alleviate the world population crises. By hierarchy, Dr. Mumford means ``...the priests, bishops, cardinalss and the Pope--not the laity.

Twenty-eight yearas ago, in 1971, I purchased the book ``The World Today`` by Clyde Kohn and Dorothy Drummond, published by McGraw-Hill. It is a book on the patterns and cultures of the world. Although the book is 28 years old, here is what it says on page four.

``You had a birthsay last year. So did 3.5 billion other people. You and most of the these 3.5 billion will have another birthday this year. So will 65 million more who were born during the past 12 months.

``From this statement you can gather that the population of the world is growing rapidly. Every minute of every hour there are 125 more people on the face of the earth. Every hour of every day the population increases by 7,500. Every day of the year, at the present rate of growth (1971), the world`s population increases by 180,000. Thus in just one years, there are 65 million more people on earth than there was last year. At this rate of growth, it is expected that in 1980 there will be abaout 4.5 people in the world. By the year 2000 there will be 6 billion people``.

From the book, ``Don`t Know Much About Geography`` by Kenneth C. Davis, page 99, ``Today (1992) at leasts 100,000 people in Bombay pay rent for the right to sleep on a small stretch of sidewalk.`` This is what overpopulation can do!

In closing I wish to thank Mr.Simke for causing my old brain to stimulate with memories of things I used to do when I was young.

Kevin: This article is simply an argument with a heavy dose of hyperbole. Anyone blaming Westerners in general for ``everything``, is by definition generalizing (as I certainly did in the short article). The impetus for cooperation comes from Riane Eisler`s ``Chalice and the Blade`` (1987).

When will the collective people of Western European lineage be absolved of responsibility for every crime (percieved or real) against humanity?

*Especially if these ``crimes`` are aginst non-caucasians *

Geez, you`d think we were devils or something....

Anita,

So we seem to agree that self-help/empowerment is the way to go. Burki and Shaukat Aziz, the only two names I recognized, are affluent men, hence my issue about material wealth. In any case, I was also reacting to the over emphasis on `brand names` like ivy leagues.

As far as `stooping to stereotype`, well, what can I say, Anita, you stereotyped the lot of us in an article that I didnt agree with. I didnt call it `stooping`. Anyway, I apologize if I seemed to have attacked you personally; that was not my intention. The best of us stray and need to be nudged back on the raah-e-raast.

When I spoke of poorer desi`s, I was talking about desis here, not in Pakistan. And, actually, upon reflection, my question/assumption about your knowing poorer desis is not very relevant. People in Pakistan are surrounded by poverty and misery; that doesnt mean anything. So, lets forget about that. You agree there are Pakistani`s in the US who are not as `successful` and `affluent` as some of their more privileged counterparts. That`s fair enough.

I am still not convinced that recognizing there is racism and that there are not very `succesful` desis in the US means we are looking for handouts or indulging in `self-victimization`. Also, I dont agree that African Americans/Black Americans are where they are due to a similar ideology. Maybe we can go into it later.


RE: SS
Saad, understanding what you write and agreeing with it are two different things. Whatever, ...:)

SR,

When I said some other ordinary desis, I meant ordinary, unlike the ones I had mentioned, who whether or not originally privileged, have since become quite well known. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. But, thanks for pointing it out; I hope I have clarified it for everyone.

Re: Shan Anwar

``And, Anita, nowhere have I said that Pakistanis are a disadvantaged community in America. I know as well as anybody that as a group, Pakistanis and South Asians in general are fairly successful..``

Thanks, the above is the only point I have been arguing. You are perfectly accurate in pointing out that marginalized individuals exist, in our community and in many other communities. And often their needs are not articulated. Also that racism exists against fresh immigrants and may also exist against poor second generation Pakistanis. In my experience, there are many racial tensions between poor Pakistanis and African Americans - often b/c they are competing for the same jobs. Some Pakistanis I know who work in the security area (guards etc) where they are a minority in an environment almost exclusively black, feel they have to contend with a lot of racism in the work environment.

So yes, I agree, all is not hunky dory with all Pakistanis in the US. But at the same time, the community as a whole has done very well for itself in the US.

RE: Saad

(1) The sky isn`t blue. Its black. Only if seen from the surface of the earth it gives the illusion of being blue.

(2) The earth is not round. It is buldging out around the equator and a bit, how should I say, ``compressed`` at the poles. Hardly your picture perfect round.

(2) Water may or may not be liquid at room temperature. Depends on where your room is (latitude and altitude) and whether or not it has climate control.


[:-))

...SR

When I accidentally stumbled upon this Chowk the range of articles and the commenrts I read were a pleasant surprise. Since then I have been visiting this site daily. Much to the detriment of my better half in residence. But lately I am alarmed at the level of dicussion and the sub-terranean name calling. Can I please plead with all of you not to lower the level of discussion?

Who are we?

I suggested a hyphenated solution. American-Pakistanis or Canadian-Pakistanis. Create any label .PakistaniX? A few minutes of conversation and we KNOW who we are. The dilemma is an agreement on a label for us.

Who am I?

A Canadian by residence. hailing from a major dysfunctional city of a major Islamic state that ostensibly belongs to a world Ummah.

Hence I am this X.

As a rate-payer I would love to see some of my tax dollars go towards alleviation of real or perceived miseries of people from my label X.


Steve, you may glow in the dark, but please
check facts. Your indriect apology is graciously accepted.

Hasti ke mat faraybe main aajaaiyo Asad
Aalam tamaam, halqa-e-daam-e khayal hai.

(Steve, this is Ghalib`s couplet. Yusuf Husain
translates it thus:

O Asad, be not deceived
By this existence;
Thw whole universe is nothing
But a noose of the snare of thought.

Regards.

Re:Pappaguppa

Thank you for contributing to this discussion. No way do I think you are a loser. You said it yourself, you are proud of what you do - I have used many a cab in Manhattan on weekend trips from Boston and have almost invariably had thoughtful, enjoyable conversations with the driver and gotten off thinking, wow, what a guy! I describe one such incident in my essay, ``In Defense of Desipun`` when the gentleman refused to even charge us fare.

Whether somebody drives a cab, is a thalay wala, a nanny, a carpenter, a teacher, a physician, a scientist, a cook, a night attendant at Seven Eleven stores, everybody`s work is important, and as such, should be respected. My whole argument is this. That we shouldn`t label you ``disadvantaged``. That word in America is almost synonymous with loser, it perpetuates a sense of fatalistic hopelessness, which most Pakistani cab drivers (and Indian nannies)I`ve talked to, don`t seem to have. Many are very optimistic about their children`s future, a value that all Pakistanis, regardless of socio-economic status share.

AZ

Well said, sir. Thanks.

Some more thoughts, Bad Girl. If you are a fan of Akhter Hameed Khan (I`ve had the privilege of being taught by him) you should know that self-victimization of communities is the very antithesis of everything he believes in. He is one of the biggest propounders of self-help I know.

This may surprise you, but I am a fairly left-leaning individual - committed to social activism. My insistence on community pride and self-help as a basis for development, rather than claiming victim status (the victim-as-hero psyche) stems from having worked in both models and seeing the former work, while the latter has failed miserably. The Aga Khan Health Service, Education Service, and the Rural Support Program are wonderful examples to learn from. I worked with them for a year in Gilgit and Chitral and have kept in touch with their progress through friends who are still there - its amazing with a little bit of direction, how much these incredibly disadvantaged communities have been able to do for themselves. This, in fact, is my chosen career path. At present, I am working on writing grants through various development agencies to build a self-sustaining model of tracking TB (largely a social disease) and other infectious epidemics in Karachi through major improvements in health infrastructure, hoping to relocate to Pakistan within the next couple of years.

On the other hand, the victim status conferred on all Blacks in the US has led to the complete erosion of whatever little faith they had in their own abilities. I see hopeless individuals everyday, many of whom I have known for almost 3 years now - extremely bright individuals, but so caught up in the vicious cycle of self-hate, and blaming all of society for their woes, that the only way out is to be on drugs and alcohol. This is the magnitude of the problem that individuals like Henry Louis Gates, Jr., for example, have to overcome - fostering a whole new mindset, a radical paradigm shift on an entire community totally defeated by its victim status.

I hope that this does something to explain where I am coming from. Would love to hear your own personal experiences from your work in these, or similar areas. Shan`s too.

Anita

Re: Bad girl

Bad girl, I have no idea why this has become a discussion of haves and have nots. And boy, have you stooped to stereotyping yourself! All these assumptions about me and the kind of desis I know. I happen to be from a very middle-class Karachi family with PIB colony origins. Do not even have the benefit of a Cambridge system education (matric product, through and through). And I have many poor relatives in Pakistan, and some poor relatives here in the US. Saad`s grandmother still lives in PIB Colony.

Then you go on to assume that Saad and I equate material wealth with success. In the list of desis in America that Saad mentioned several individuals are not heroes because of material wealth. They are scientists/extraordinary physicians. Ayub Ommaya invented the Ommaya Reservoir, an ingenious contraption designed to drain fluid away from the brain in cases of increased intracranial pressure, Teepu Siddique is at present our only likely Nobel Prize in Medicine hope. He discovered the genetic abnormality that causes Lou Gehrig`s disease. Nausherwaan Burki is a pulmonologist in Kentucky who was Imran Khan`s brain behind the Shaukat Khanum Hospital.

I agree with you that the Jilani sisters, Akhter Hameed Khan, and Edhi are also great individuals, certainly heroes in every sense of the word. But you miss the central point. We are talking about the achievements of the desi community of America. All these people live in Pakistan!

Anita

Re: Shan Anwar

Shan, the statistics you quote are not very helpful in supporting your premise that Pakistanis are a disadvantaged community. The 1990 INS yearbook figure of approx 17000 non-visitors includes 5000 students. Why the assumption that a large part of the rest are not professionals, other skilled workers, wives, parents, children of professionals etc.

Nowhere have I said that there aren`t poor Pakistanis in America or that we as a community shouldn`t try to confront their problems and help them. My whole argument is that race shouldn`t be used as the basis of justifying that help. We don`t need to push for victim status to achieve our goals as a community. All under-priveleged people would benefit from a little re-distribution of wealth, whether they are Pakistani, West Indian, Hispanic, or black - and in this country obsessed with material wealth, profit margin, the bottom-line - an odd grouping of racial and linguistic differentiation, and gross over-tribalization have been used to make an argument for helping those whom no one wants to help. It has resulted in incredible self-doubt and self-defeatism in these minorities. Henry Louis Gates`(Chair of Harvard`s Afro-American Studies) ``Thirteen Ways to look at a Black Man`` and James Weldon Johnson`s ``The Autobiography of an Ex-Colored Man`` may help you arrive at some understanding of the destructiveness of this self-victimization behavior.

We started out wanting to figure out what our cultural identity is, and more importantly what our children`s should be - should we force our children to be different? If so, why? Should we go with a South Asian identity, or with Islamic. We haven`t even scratched the surface of this central issue that Steve Simske has raised, b/c we keep going round and round in circles about whether we are an under-priveleged minority in the US or not. Very frustrating!

Re: BG

Just a minor correction. Akhtar Hamid and Asma Jehangir (formaely Asma Jilani) are no `ordinary` desis. I don`t know about the other two you named, but these two are, by any measure, VERY AFFULENT. And at least in the latter case are of the ivy league ilk. Looks can indeed be deceptive.

RE: SS
``The antidote is simple and no secret; our victors have known of it for hundreds of years: affluence.``

I wish it were that simple.
Basic law of economics: scarcity of resources.
Basic outcome in a capitalist global system with power imbalances: haves and have-nots; with the haves fighting to maintain the status quo.
I guess its convenient to think the answer is simple if one is affluent. ask someone whose been trying to get affluent without having been born into a wealthy, educated family.

``It is worth noting, as an aside, that the reluctance of some desis to find pleasure and inspiration in the success of other desis is another by-product of this same post-colonial psychosis``

Saad, you have still not convinced me that I need to find pleasure and inspiration in the success of other desis, especially if success is defined by an unjust social order that institutionalizes heirarchies. If I dont agree that making lots of money = success, or getting into princeton = success, then i have no reason to rejoice. I dont care if its desis or non-desis who achieve so-called `success`. I am inspired by Edhi, Vandana shiva, Akhtar Hameed Khan, Asma Jahangir and some other ordinary desis whose names you wont know. But only because they have succeeded in ways that I think are valuable.

As for the rest of your..er... monologue, sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me :)

Thanks for all the references, Shan. They are very useful.