Science Is A Dead End Career

This author has been educated as an engineer (IIT Madras) and as a physicist (Caltech), and sees substantial differences in the education of engineers and physicists, especially since he had to contend with those differences in making the transition from engineering to physics.

A simple example would be the differences in the engineering and physics curricula in what is taught of complex analysis.

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There was a gap of about twenty years between when Newton made the discoveries that went into the Principia and when he wrote the Principia. Newton spent the greater part of his life doing theology, and not physics. Hardly the attitude of one seeking to produce new products and services.

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-arun gupta

Urstruly

``Then I tried to focus the telescope towards some earthly stars, if you know what I mean. But unfortunately the place where we were did not help much to write a new chapter in the book of Peeping Tom. ``

Well it seems this is the next best use of a telescope other than what it is meant for:)) I remember that in my undergraduate years, there was a huge and expensive telescope owned by astronomy cell. Apart from watching the usual exciting celestial events from the sixth storey of faculty building, many students also tried to watch the movement of ``earthly stars`` many times but in vain. However this did not deter some desperados and last I heard some of them succeeded in focussing it ``right`` from some particular location.

Cheers

In re MacGupta:

``It is sheer historical revisionism to suggest that Newton, Gauss or Euler were engineers

seeking to create new products and services.``

Proper revisionism is just fine. When new facts and interpretations appear, revisionism occurs. Those who oppose valid revisionism are simply `preists`.

``One who claims this may want to study how and when for example, Newton wrote his Principia.``

This writer did, and then came to the conclusion that Newton was an engineer.

``It is true that sometimes engineers are at the cutting edge of science, and then they do

create new science. More often, they push a technology far enough that then a

scientific experiment that was previously not feasible could then be done.``

Fair enough.

`` But for most part, engineering work results in science that is immediately applicable to

the problem at hand.``

Wonderful, praticularly for taxpayer-funded research.

``There are an enormous number of discoveries ranging from radioactivity to continental drift to general relativity to quantum theory that had zero

application when they were discovered.``

One should read a bit more about the circumstances of those discoveries, instead of relying on journalistic accounts and convenient boxes in

textbooks.

``Another indication is the difference in the physics and mathematics curricula between

physicists and engineers.``

This writer has not seen any significant

differences, except as they relate to fields

of specialization.

Dear Hameed.

Thanks for the mailing address but where I am right now (Detroit) it wont help much. When I was in Pakistan I did get a chance to use telescope at Punjab University, Dep. of Physics/Astronomy. A friend of mine was writing a thesis while I visited him. We used to go to the lab. after watching the last show of a Punjabi movie with heriones having astronomically big you know what....anyway the experience of looking into heavens, its awe and its beauty has captivated my soul ever since. It is extremely addictive too.

While I was in Karachi I was a not so frequent visitor to a cousin who was working with SUPARCO. The experience was frustrating-too much light pollution coupled with dust and smog. Then I tried to focus the telescope towards some earthly stars, if you know what I mean. But unfortunately the place where we were did not help much to write a new chapter in the book of Peeping Tom. I do remember going to Jiwani and Makli a couple of times and then interior Sind turned into a no man`s land after dark.

Though I am totally imprisoned by the gravity now, including my spare time, yet I did manage to see the full lunar eclipse last year here at the university observatory.

Urstruly # 23

Given an opportunity, public in Pakistan (and elsewhere too) have responded very positively to astronomy-related events. I was once part of AMASTROPAK (The Amateurs Astronomical Society of Pakistan) and we held several observing sessions in Karachi, where we would set-up telescopes (borrowed from members, SUPARCO, and Karachi Planetarium) for observations of Mars, Saturn etc. The turnout for these events was always tremendous (at least a few hundred people). Once every 4 months, we would also arrange a bus for members to go to Hub Chowki in Balochistan for darker skies. We used to get about 50 people for these trips.

Currently, Lahore Astronomical Society (LAST) is providing similar opportunities. I think, next week (nov 17) they are driving out several hours from Lahore to observe the Leonid meteor shower. LAST meets once a month and after every meeting they set-up telescopes for viewing. If interested, LAST`s contact is Omar at pulsar@brain.net.pk .

-Salman

tahmad321 # 15

Only if telescopes were cheeper in Pakistan, the star-gazing would have been the most popular profession. Yours truly had been an avid star gazer himself in his time:)

It is sheer historical revisionism to suggest that Newton, Gauss or Euler were engineers seeking to create new products and services.

One who claims this may want to study how and when for example, Newton wrote his Principia.

It is true that sometimes engineers are at the cutting edge of science, and then they do create new science. More often, they push a technology far enough that then a scientific experiment that was previously not feasible could then be done.

But for most part, engineering work results in science that is immediately applicable to the problem at hand. There are an enormous number of discoveries ranging from radioactivity to continental drift to general relativity to quantum theory that had zero application when they were discovered. Some continue to have no application.

Another indication is the difference in the physics and mathematics curricula between physicists and engineers.

- Arun Gupta

The contributed piece is marred by the common misperception that many ``scientists`` (particularly US-trained/influenced physicists) have that engineers refine and exploit science. Like all simplistic beliefs, that is sheer and complete nonsense.

Engineers create science as they seek to produce new and improved products and services. Newton, Gauss, Euler, etc. were engineers. Not only did they indulge in curiosity-driven research, they were fully impelled by prevailing needs for new products as well as market forces. Engineers continue to do the same. If they need to investigate some issue, they do so -- and develop new mathematics as well as discover new scientific principles thereby.

To engineer is human.

The following lines are a sad reminder of how bad things can be for scientists:

A green little scientist

In a green little way

Mixed some green little chemicals

In a green little way

The green little grasses

Now tenderly wave

Over the green little scientist`s

green little grave.

I can add that, whatever needed to be discussed on Chowk is already discussed.

No new thoughts are coming, except the same repetition of already known positions, and public relationing.

Does it mean Chowk has no future.

Just kidding.

OTHER TOP TEN DEAD END CAREERS

10: Smokin’ hookah, wearing Fez, playing politics.
9: Counting beans (in Mexico or in a high-rise tower)
8: Making fluorescent glass bangles or iridescent Soorma.
7: Being filthy (as in filthy poor or filthy rich) in Desiland.
6: Teaching ‘common sense’ in the Madaaris.
5: Teaching ‘tolerance’ in Desi High Schools.
4: Disengaging earnest-hotheaded interactors.
3: Apprenticing as a trainee-Mahout.
2: Writing poems (specially the trans-creative kind)

(a tie)

1: Writing these Top Tens.

RE: Hameed

Gosh! People are getting paid just for looking at the stars. Rabba main kithay jaNwaN:). CaraN bana bana keh jhalay thee gayay aaN.

Let me first summarize my post:

Science is NOT a dead end career and this is NOT the end of science.

Since its a long reply, I will sub-divide it into different sections:

About Alan Hale:



Before I move on to the specifics of those issues, let me talk about

Alan Hale first. Alan Hale got his degree from the Astronomy Department

at New Mexico State University (Las Cruces), where I am currently

finishing my PhD in astronomy. He is the only graduate of the

department (MS. or PhD.) who is unemployed. The department

keeps a pretty good record of the jobs its graduates are getting.

Almost all of the graduates who wanted a job in academia

have been successful in getting a job in academia and all

those who wanted to go into industry have been successful

getting in there. So how do we explain the situation of

``world-famous``, unemployed astronomer, Alan Hale? The department

statistics suggest that there is, in general, nothing wrong with

NMSU astronomy graduates...and I will leave the rest for your

imagination.

About being ``world-famous``: Discovering a comet doesn`t make

a person genius. In fact it doesn`t even require a professional

astronomer to discover a comet. This is neatly illustrated

by the fact that, the often forgotten, co-discoverer of

comet Hale-Bopp, Bopp is an amateur astronomer, who happened

to be at a star party when he spotted this ``fuzzy`` thing and

reported it to the International Astronomical Union.

I would have been concerned about the state of job-situation

if Alan Hale would habe been responsible for the explanation

for the orgins of comets and then be un-employed. Rather

being humble about his fortuitous discovery, Alan Hale expoited

his fifteen-minutes of fame by generalizing

his personal failures to the entire community and he especially crossed

the line when he discouraged a nine-year old girl, with

a passion for astronomy, from persuing her love.

The End of Science?



I think the fallacy of this over-confident thinking has already been

pointed out in one of the replies. A lack of imagination, in part

of John Horgan in thinking of other problems, does not mean that

we know every thing. Similar predictions were made at the end of

the 19th century, when we thought we were confidently floating in

aether. To put things in perscpective, these 19th century

``end of science`` prophecies came at a time when our galaxy

was considered to be the entire universe, light was just thought of

as a wave, there was no limit on how fast things could travel,

the continents were thought to be stationary, Sun was powered by

gravitaional contraction, space and time were seperate and absolute,

and the quantum nature of matter was still unknown, not to mention

the impact of these discoveries on technology and society of the

20th century as a whole. Yet the 19th century pundits of ``end of science``

were as confident as John Horgan.

Today, apart from the unexpected, we don`t even know what more than

90% of the universe is made-up of (dark-matter problem), are

there any parallel universes, is speed of light really a barrier,

is there a more fundamental unit of matter than electrons and

quarks (superstring theory?), are there more earth-like planets

out there, how did life originate on Earth, what is the fate of the

universe, etc. This may be the ``end of science`` for John Horgan, but

not for science itself.

Science is a dead end career?



Pople don`t go in pure sciences to make a lot of money. For else,

they would choose Computer Science, MBA, or a medical degree.

The pull towards pure sciences is due to the love of the field and

the desire to learn about the world that surrounds us. And

in return, we actually get paid!! We get paid for persuing our

hobby. How cool is that! How many people can claim that?

After finishing the degree, astronomy post-docs earn

about $35,000-$45,000, and, in general, are exteremely happy

about it. I am applying for post-docs this year, and I am excited

about the prospect of being paid that much just for doing

research. Sure I won`t be able to buy a really expensive

car immediately, but I won`t be living hand-to-mouth either.

Is there a shortage of postdoc positions? No. In fact, currently, we

are going through one of the best periods of employment in astronomy.

The only valid complaint regarding this is that not all of the

postdocs get a permanent faculty position. This is true...but

more than 50% do. Is this fair? I think so. Not every body gets into

graduate schools either. You need to have certain credentials

to get into graduate schools and the same thing applies to

permanent academic positions. In Utopia, everybody

would get an advanced degree followed by a faculty position.

But, in Utopia every computer scientist would also be making

as much money as Bill Gates. Unfortunately, for this

Utopian society we would have to wait till the 24th century

when Captain Picard will be exploring new worlds and

civilizations.

Currently, astronomy, like biology, is going through a boom.

Hubble Space Telescope has obtained breathtaking images,

which have also captured the imagination of the general

public. Astronomy makes the headlines quite often

(astronomers have also started to be seen as lead characters in

movies...e.g. Charlie Sheen in ``The Arrival``, Jodie Foster

in ``Contact``). Other Space telescopes either have already been

launched (like Chandra X-ray telescope) or are going

to be launced soon (like SIRTF--Space Infra-red Telescope Facility).

Similarly, numerous new ground-based facilities are coming up, promising

new discoveries with every gaze at the sky. Far from being

a dead end career, this is one of the most exciting times

to be an astronomer. I am sure same things can be said

about other fields, especially genetics.

My view has been focused on astronomy. But I had to respond since

Alan Hale is an astronomer, and his opinion was used as the

center-piece of the article. I apologize for the long reply.

-Salman Hameed.

urstruly #14 it is true that modern scientific research is led by governments, corporations etc. However there is more to it: many comets, asteroids etc. are discovered (and named after) private individuals who spend many hours in the early morning behind telescopes in their backyards. In a interesting use of the internet the SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) initiative invites individuals to make their computers available for analyzing data collected by telescopes (visit the site http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ for more on this). Anyone with a computer linked to the internet can easily participate in this very interesting exercise. Given the challenges of daily life for most people in South Asia, a lack of interest in science can be excused. But can the same be said for those in South Asia who happen to be not so challenged for daily existence?

I would partially agree with Saima Shah for her interpretation of the situation.

One must understand that the nature of scientific investigation has changed diametrically in the past 60-80 years. Now it simply is just not possible to carry out experimentation in your garage any more. Experimentation for the physical sciences have become very complex and very expensive-the hub of such efforts have shifted from an individual to a team. The only avenue that is left for individual endeavor is theoratical sciences like pure mathematics and study of cosmos etc.

Despite these grass root level changes, the scientific investigation still depends on the attitude of society towards such endeavors along with individual efforts. The rise and decline of a civilization is indicated by its attitude towards science and knowledge-and vice versa.

In developed and developing countries the scientific investigation is now dependent on three elements:

1. Corporations
2. Government
3. Universities.

Corporations are a self propelling element-its prime mover is market. The role of government and universities is dependent on the society`s attitude. The situation is not hopeless at all-it only has become a little bit more streneous on Nerds and Geeks-there is more pressure on them to fit in.

re. Fozia #12

Amen to that, sister!