Al-Qaeda in America

I do not believe there is any thing remotely like Al-Qaeeda in this world..
i can clearly visulize Mr Osama Bin Laden and Mr Mullah Mohammed Umer reporting to the CIA center is USA
This is Agent Umer and Osama Sir, we are on the right track Sir, We will need some more terroism in the name of Al-Qaeeda Sir,

The sophistication and accuracy of 911 if far far beyond the cave dewllers like Afghans .....yes they are fierce fighters but in their own land....but their fighting ability is naive .....they are not sophisticated high tech fighters

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re. #46
Good Point!

re. #44
See, arjun_m, you had it wrong all the while. It wasn`t the joos; it was the hindoos! :)

Urstruly,
For what it`s worth, I`m with you on the Sept.11 issue. At the very least, actions of the US state dept and the media has raised more questions than they have answered-- and answered unsatisfactorily when they have.

But re. the hindoos, you really need to get a grip, manny.

rgds,
PM

Urstruly:

First of all, I would like to apologize for not being able to spend more time on this site than it merits.

Second of all, I was talking in terms of our vision for Pakistan and then putting different pieces together. In this discussion therefore, I would like to invite other chowksters too to enlighten each other.

For example, if our vision for Pakistan is to make it a Muslim state role model for the entire world then how should we proceed. Some of the things that I have mentioned and you have posted to can be summarized as follows:

1. Develop our economy so that there is no inbalance between our military strength and overall economic strength.

2. Retain our strategic assets realizing that the West is against it. And retain them at all the cost in a responsible manner for without them the enemy is going to be too overwhelming.

3. Pass on the rule of the land to the representatives of the people. If a war has to be enforced upon us, the international media should not be able to paint it as war between the free world and a dictator like Saddam. People all over the world should know it as an attempt to enforce an unfair war upon free people.

I would like to discuss with anyone how Afghanistan / Talibans fit into the path that leads us to our Vision, how should we treat our Islamic ` extremist` elements in order to use them as a resource, how should we build a positive image of Pakistan in the Western mindset so that a war becomes impossible to be enforced on us, etc.

In summation, how can we obtain our above-mentioned strategic plan and at the same time not become next Iraq?

Ahmadzai

I don`t think what I wrote is depressing it is actually heartening if we choose to be pragmatic. The question of US leaving Afghanistan is not a question of ``IF`` anymore, it is a question of ``When``. And it is not a mystery either. If we take a look at the domestic politics of US we see that currently, Democrats and Liberals do not resist Bush`s foreign and domestic policies, and if they do they do it half-heartedly. And Republicans don’t dissent because they are running the show, why would they criticize themselves, especially, in this jingoist fever that they want the nation to keep in. But the fact remains that at the end of the day it will be Bush and Republican who will be held responsible for what they are doing and not Democrats. If I were a Democrat I would let Bush do what he is doing internally and externally because anyone with a least bit of common sense and who is not suffering from Jingoist fever, can put the two and two together and see that Bush is sinking himself into a bottomless pit. Democrats will wait until the election year and then soon the Afghanistan issue will be all over. By that time the freedom struggle in Afghanistan would gain full inertia and the Democrat and Liberal media will blow it out of proportion and suddenly the ``liberation`` of Afghanistan will become a very unpopular war. That will be the perfect time to cash on this new wave of anti-war dissent among the people. Keep in mind that during Iran Embassy hostage crises the Republicans secretively urged Iranians to prolong occupation of the Embassy and it helped Ronal Reagan to get elected. That is how the politics work in US – like everywhere else. So what I suggested above is the only way Democrats can beat Bush otherwise there is no way in this jingoist fever.

Keeping that time frame in mind the best option that Pak Army has is to phase out of the political structure of Pakistan completely and handover powers to the people`s representatives. It was the people who after the humiliation of 1971 pulled Pakistan out of the quagmire – and they can do it once again. It is prudent for common Pakistanis to stand rank and file behind those who are at the forefront of the struggle to preserve the constitution and sovereignty of Pakistan at this moment.

ahmedazai #63 So you are an expat like me (and I think more than half of the rest of the chowkies). I assume this is because the internet is more easily accessible (via cable modems and DSLs) in the west than it is in Pakistan. Although, with cable TV already a reality in Pakistan, I assume cable internet service will be too.
It would be interesting to see if a few years from now the maulvis find a way to misuse the cable network and so decide to stop cutting cables off. This has been their standard reaction to the introduction of new technologies for the past century - they first decried the loudspeaker as the ``devil`s voice``, then discovered that they could use it to become the ``maulvi`s voice`` and the rest is history.

Tahmed32 at # 59:

``How are things in the frontier (I think you mentioned you live in NWFP) with the maulvis in charge?``

Unfortunately, the last time I visited my home province was in the summer of 2001 when I visited Pakistan. But I am in touch with my land.

``Are they surprising everyone by doing something constructive, or merely burning cassette tapes and cutting TV cables?? ``

Mullas will keep burning cassette tapes amd cutting TV cables. They will surpeise me if they go beyond this.

Urstruly at # 60:

Impressive capturing of the events even though the depressing picture is giving me a heart attack ;)

However, my questions to you now is what is your solution to take Pakistan out of this quagmire? I mean you have outlined all the problems that confront us today. You know them, I know them and the entire world knows about them. But tell me how do we (Pakistanis) go about solving our problems? I would request you to kindly answer in terms of the long-term Vision that you have for Pakistan, the mid-term Mission to meet the vision, and the short-term action plans to meet the Mission.

I am looking forward to exchanging our viewpoint on this matter, perhaps in 4-5 hours time.

Paging PaagalInsaan!

You said on another thread: ``The FBI does not want to catch the local Jihadi terrorists.`` ``the US government clearly wants to protect the local Jihadis``

Hey here is one possible explanation- set a thief to catch a thief. A bit far out, because why would one radical Wahabi-funded Islamist organisation hate another?:

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=EDITS&file_name=edit3%2Etxt&counter_img=3
(not a permanent link so read it soon)

``.. Far more significant is the least known import of the reemergence of Lashkar on the global context. With the disruption of the Al Qaeda and other similar terror networks following the 9/11 attack, it is Lashkar that will, and is, spearheading the Islamic jihad. It is a Wahabi organisation, unlike other terror groups that follow Deobandi tradition. Wahabis are more orthodox than Deobandis. The Saudi rulers are Wahabis and have been the most generous contributors for the Wahabi cause in the past several years. A conservative estimate put Saudi Arabia`s annual contribution to the Islamic cause (camouflaged as religious, educational and charitable) at over $ 10 billion.

Lashkar has, like the Al Qaeda, a wide network of associations and affiliations across the globe. In all probability, it is being resurrected as an alternative to the Al Qaeda headed by Osama bin Laden, the Saudi billionaire whose antipathy to the royal family is no secret.

A resurgent Lashkar could effectively checkmate bin Laden without disrupting the radical Islamic cause.The new Lashkar and its affiliates could-learning from the Al Qaeda`s operational strategy-avoid spectacular attacks and instead concentrate on expanding its network across the globe. ..``

ahmadzai

Taliban are a part of history now. Therefore, whether one supports them or not is immaterial. However, this should not deter us from analyzing history to chart our present and future course of action. And the best way to analyze history is by doing comparison of past and present. We can do this comparison if we explore the answer to the question whether Afghanistan is better off after Taliban or not.

Here is what I wrote a few days before the carnage upon Afghanistan was about to be unleashed and an interactor asked me why shouldn`t Pakistan help US to put Taliban to sleep:

That was then:

My support for Afghans/Talibans is based on two contentions:

1. Political
2. Humanistic

1. Political: I support Talibans or any Afghan government, whether it is by Martians or by Klingons as long as :

- It is pro-Pakistan,
- It does not become a liability to Pakistan
- It maintains law and order in Afghanistan
- It controls drugs and weapons trafficking
- It keeps our armed forces free from its Western Front and more concentrated on Eastern front.

Even the most rabid Taliban haters would grudgingly admit that Talibans have delivered all that in past 5 years. I do not want to go into past when for the past 45 years pro-Indian Afghanistan governments have been claiming Pakhtoonistan and I don’t want to discuss either why India is providing full financial aid to Northern Alliance neither will I discuss why India is providing full diplomatic and financial support to Northern Alliance envoys to US and Europe. Any Paksitani who has his mental faculties intact can put two and two together from this. Besides, it is completely beyond me why should Pakistan interfere in the internal matters of Afganistan-just to piss their government off?

2. Humanistic:

For the past 20 years Afghans had to face genocide by Russian Army in which over a million Afghans lost their lives. 5 millions have lived in subhuman conditions in refugee camps for decades. They can`t plough their fields because every inch is booby trapped with mines. No building is intact. There are no bridges, no schools, no hospitals, no nothing. On top of that US and Western countries not only withdrew their support but also subjected them to a slow genocide with sanctions. Where the f-uck is Marshal Plan here. Where the heck is great contribution of US to humanity here? If Pakistan and other organizations help them live just another day then what is nobler than that. Lets admit it that Afghanistan is a post apocalypse waste land where humanity is just hanging by a thread.


And this is now:

1. It is an obvious fact that the Northern Alliance i.e. ethnic Hazara, along with American occupation is ruling Afghanistan. This rule is only strong as long as it has the backing of US Air Force. This is an unnatural arrangement, which can even rift a civilized society apart, what to talk of tribal society of Afghanistan. As soon as Americans decide to leave, a horrible civil war is inevitable, which will definitely effect Pakistan also. US is spending well over ½ a billion per month to keep its presence there – not to mention the political cost. The pipeline from Central Asia is a pipedream. Who the hell is going to protect it? Even in Pakistan, with Army in absolute power, government cannot protect its gas pipelines from warlords in Baluchistan without paying them. If there were massive reconstruction in Afghanistan then there was a chance that the pipeline would have been safe but instead a freedom movement is already in progress. The history of soviet occupation is being repeated again - where resistance began after a year and used to gain momentum during the warmer months. US is also using soviet tactics by destroying the whole villages in the vicinity of resistance fights. Despite strict censorship and full collusion of Western media such news are now events of everyday. Not a day goes by when US establishment is not attacked. In short Afghanistan has become an economic and political liability to Western occupation. Just imagine when something as vulnerable as a gas pipeline will be in place and US army and their allied warlords will charged to protect it. As long as the economic and political costs are bearable the Oil Cartels and Western occupation are there but they are rapidly losing ground. The overwhelming number of people in their own countries are beginning to dissent and there are weekly protests of millions in their own countries. Some people are already questioning Afghanistan as well and as the dust from Iraq settles down people will question Afgansitan.

2. Not only Afghanistan but also Pakistan and several other Muslim countries have lost their sovereignty in the aftermath of Afghan carnage. People usually try to avoid thinking on these lines because it puts them in a very uncomfortable position and it demands action on their part; so currently people stick their heads in the sand and pretend that all this is a bad dream. But let me assure you that it is not.

3. The trade of drugs is on the up again and US occupation is looking the other way to avoid local resistance. And so is the trade of illegal weapons, that is how warlords (and resistance) in Afghanistan finance themselves.

4. As soon as the Taliban were removed, India found courage to gather its 1 million strong army at our borders. And not only that, it threatens a nuclear attack and keeps its army at the borders for a year. GOP has started selling drinking water now to cover up the costs to keep an equitable posture with India.

5. India has established Air command centers and airstrips in Northern Afghanistan.

6. Iran is rightfully expecting to be next after Iraq and in desperation trying to form military alliances with any one it can. In exchange of a defense contract with India it has allowed India to establish air command centers in Iran.

7. The way the military regime was isolated in the world prior to 9/11, it seemed likely that they would have left government to civilians after completing 3 years and holding elections. But now they are forced upon us with the full support of Western colonial powers, where military in exchange looks after their colonial interests. In Turkey Army is in such position for the past 80 years. Welcome to the enlightened Paksitan of attaturk as well.

8. If and when US leaves Afghanistan, it is totally absurd even to think that, US will help us overcome its aftershocks. Pakistan Army already has an exit plan in place if that happens – they will return the government to the politicians, as they did in 1971, and retire to Boston but where is the exit plan for the people of Pakistan. Are we, the one who are cursed to think, are preparing our people for the worst?

I leave the verdict after this comparison onto you.

ahmedzai #56 Glad to have you on board chowk. I am indeed one of the long-timers here, and chowk provides a good break from what I am doing. You certainly have more patience than I do with some folks on chowk. How are things in the frontier (I think you mentioned you live in NWFP) with the maulvis in charge? Are they surprising everyone by doing something constructive, or merely burning cassette tapes and cutting TV cables??

In response to Urstruly at # 46:

Although we hate terrorism in all its forms and shapes, we cannot have parties assumed guilty unless proven innocent.

All terrorists held in jails should be provided access to judiciary and to their kith and kin. This has been the stance of human right groups also.

Similarly, Indian Government cannot be allowed to point fingers at Pakistan on `terrorism` when neutral observers and international media is not allowed in Indian administered Kashmir. India cannot assume the role of accuser and the judge at the same time.

Therefore, I completely agree with your messages in this respect. However, I don`t agree with your stance on Talibans. Even the most ardent supporters of Talibans now agree in terms like `they were uneducated and not familiar with the ways the Government is run these days` and `yes, they should have listened to us to hand over OBL to Americans as a mark of respect for we stood with them in hard times`.

My own view is that Pakistan should have washed our hands off Talibans from the day 1. Extremists are untrustworthy and brothers in crime no matter which religion they belong to.

tahmed 32 at # 43:

``I was amused to see you (new to chowk) trying to have an intelligent discussion with the messrs...``

Well, I am amazed at the fact that how some people are running their hate campaigns while others do not want to get into any discussion with new commers. I think that older chowksters are too comfortable around with each other and they are best left this way.

As far as I am concerned, I have enjoyed this site this far. It is very very different from what I had been surfing on, very very nerve shattering and mind boggling too.

Thanks and I wish you all the best.

ana_dobarah #55 Thank you! Thank you!
(Bows to sound of audience clapping. Goes off stage. Returns as audience continues applause, and bows again. This time is joined by messrs. arjun and urstruly, who also take their bows. Newspaper reviews the next day are ecstatic: ``While stage manager tahmed deserves praise for providing an overview of the whole situation, the real credit goes to the two fine actors, messrs. arjun and urstruly. Reading their posts it is difficult to tell which one is more cuckoo than the other!! ``).

tahmed ji: bas i just have to give `daad` where `daad` is due...your commentary on this whole situation is so refreshing, it totally makes up for me not being able to watch any World Cup matches!!! :-)