Ancient Pakistan

It is interesting to learn that Islamic society do value their pre-islamic past. Islam is a young religion. Its presence in the Indian sub-continent cannot mean that nothing existed before it. Indian civilization is an ancient one, and pakistanis must recognize that this is their ancient past. Pakistani brothers and sisters, you must recognize that this your heritage as much as it is mine! This may not make the mullah`s happy who look to the book for everything, but life is much larger than any book.

I would like others to look at the other interesting aspects of ancient jihadis:- the Gazis, the looters, plunderers, rapists and the Jihadis par excellence. Who would like to convert everybody in their image. The ultimate immortality:

Zahiru`d-Din Muahmmed Babur(CE 1526-1530)
Source: Babur Nama
Place:Chanderi (Madhya Pradesh)

In AH 934 (CE 1528) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours...We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had been daru`l - harb for years was made into a daru`l-islam.
Babur`s poem on killing Hindus

For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer;
I battled infidels and Hindus.
I determined to become a martyr.
Thank God I became a Ghazi(killer of non-Muslims)
Quoted in Dr. Harsh Narain`s article:Rama-Janma Bhumi Muslim testimony
Indian Express Feb,26,1990 Place:Uttar Pradesh
Since the establishment of Zahiru`d-Din Ghazi`s rule ...officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously destroying Hindu faith. We cleared of the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.
Guru Nanak on Babur`s atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says:

Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn`t You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)
On the condition of Hindu women in Babur`s monster rule:

Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God`s Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)
On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:

First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)
Back to the table


Jahangir(1605-1628)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri

Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar`s orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.

Jahangir`s torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.

Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)
The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor,

``Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny).`` The Guru accepted death by torture
Back to the table


Shah Jahan(1658-1707)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being ``blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire``. Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.
Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.

Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori


When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.
Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique


Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords.
Back to the table

Aurangazeb(1658-1707)
Aurangzeb considered himself ``The Scourge Of The Kafirs`` (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.

Source: Maasi-i-Alamgiri


Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh`s two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money.


Guru Tegh Bahadur`s Supreme sacrifice for Kashmiri Hindus
In 1674 CE Aurangzeb ordered that the Hindus of J&K be converted to Islam by force from the Kashmir side. Harassed beyond any human measure by Sher Afgan Khan, the Governor of Kashmir, the prominent Brahmins of Kashmir led by Pandit Kirpa Ram (who later became Sanskrit tutor of Guru Govind Singh, appeared before the Guru at Anandpur on the 25th May, 1675 CE, and appealed for protection. In His infinite compassion Guru tegh Bahadur assured them total protection. Guru proclaimed His resolve to protect the Dharma of Bharath,
``Go and tell the Governor that Guru Tegh Bahadur is our leader. If you convert him to Islam, we shall become Muslims of our own accord.``
On getting this message, Aurangzeb ordered the arrest of the Guru. For courting arrest, the Guru started towards Agra from Anandpur on the 11th July, 1675 CE At Agra, when the soldiers came to arrest the Guru.
Aurangazeb tortured Guru`s disciples before his own eyes to break Guru`s resolve.
The qazis asked Bhai Mati Dass a disciple of Guru ,

``Embrace Islam and enjoy the pleasures provided by the goveInment. Moreover when you die as a Muslim, you will go to heaven where there will be streams of milk, many kinds of wine to drink and beautiful women to enjoy. If you do not embrace Islam, your body will be sawn into two.``
Bhai Mati Dass replied,
``I can sacrifice hundreds of such heavens for Dharma. I don`t need women nor wine. I see all the happiness in the path of Dharma.``
After his refusal, the qazis asked him his last wish, to which he replied,
`When I am being cut with the saw, let my face be towards my mentor so that I may behold my Guru till my last breath and he may keep on seeing me so that he may be convinced how happily I reach my last destination.`
By the order of the qazis, the executioners sawed Bhai Mati Dass into two by axe on the 8th November, 1675 CE, in Chandani Chowk, Delhi.
On the 9th November, 1675 C.E, the Qazis ordered that Bhai Dayal Dass be seated in a cauldron of boiling water... Before putting Bhai Dayal Dass in the cauldron of boiling water, the qazis said,

``There is still time. Embrace Islam and save yourself from pains otherwise you will face greater agony than your companion. You have seen how cruelly he was sawn.``
Bhai Dayal Dass replied,
``You could not harass my companion. Did you notice, how calmly he was meditating on the word of his Guru when he was being sawn. Having made mockery of bodily pains, he had diffused into the Supreme Being. Hurry up and let my soul attain unity with the Lord.``
On his reply in the negative, the executioners sat him in the cauldron of boiling water. He stayed on sitting in the water with an unwavering mind. His flesh separated from his bones and his soul merged into the Supreme Being.
(Source: From the work of Sri.Santok Singh Jagdev.Published by SGPC)
Established in His Divine resolve of Dharma Guru Tegh Bahadur tolerated all the tortures of Aurangazeb with smile. Guru Tegh Bahadur was threatened and given a choice to embrace Islam or death.

Guru chose Death rather than deviating from the path of Dharma. Guru sat in meditation and was beheaded by Aurangazeb. Aurangazeb killed Guru physically but Guru`s words eternally power the hearts of every child of Hindustan. He had said in the face of death:
Bah Jinahn di pakariye
Sar dije bah na chhoriye
Tegh Bahadur bolya
Dhar payae dharma na chhoriye
Give up your head,
but forsake not those whom you have undertaken to protect.
Says Tegh Bahadur, sacrifice your life,
but relinquish not your Dharma
Atrocities on Sikhs by Mughal officers(1748)
In 1748 CE Mughals appointed Meer Mannu as Governor (Subedar) of Lahore and also as a Nawab of Multan. A fanatical Muslim he wanted to kill all Sikhs.He gave money to Muslims who would bring him a Sikh head. He ordered that all Sikh women in Jails to be provided with specially made heavy flour grinding instrument named Chakki. Sikh woman happily would sing the Shabads of Nanak and grind flour whole day.They preferred hard work and toil to the choice of Islam.
Meer Mannu then ordered that all Sikh infants be killed unless they or their mothers should get converted to Islam. More than 300 Sikh infants were killed by Muslims and their dead bodies given back to their mothers. History of Hindustan records with pride and veneration that not a single Khalsa mother got converted to Islam.

#68 Good one ... you know no one thinks of something as basic as the place value system ... but try and imagine higer math in roman numerals !! You`re right about ``we stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us`` bit. The enlightenment of europe was impossible without the rediscovery of the greek classics (preserved by the arabs while europeans destroyed every copy during the dark ages), the chinese paper and printing technology (the oldest book in the world is the buddhist ``Diamond Sutra``) and indian (arabic) mathematics !!

Aasif #66 Job 1 is of course watching out for Number 1 (yourself). No doubt. And one needs to make sure one`s children are raised to be self-sufficient human beings, not hate-filled monsters nor hungry little parasites. And surely if one has migrated to a foreign land, then one should in fact try to contribute what one can to one`s immediate community (in the foreign land) and one can even forget all about Pakistan (or India or whereever one came from).

But I think it would be a mistake in today`s world. The Old Country is now as close as your TV remote. Only by understanding and appreciating the positive aspects of the country of their forefathers, while at the same time appreciating the country of their immigrant parents, will the children be able to grow up as the above-mentioned human beings.

Furthermore, no country can live in isolation any more (as Bush realized after 9/11, and did a 180 degree turn in terms of isolationism). Expats can and should serve as bridges between the two countries they spend their lives in. This is probably the biggest gift they can leave behind for their children after taking care of raising them properly.

roohi #67 Now, after reading your post and ``googling`` on the internet, I know about the Bakshali Manuscript. :-) Actually, I read up a bit on the history of Indian math as well. While I did some internet research for the above article, and the article was largely inspired by an article in the Scientific American by Prof. Kenoyer who has been doing a lot of digging (literally and figuratively) into the IVC lately, I can lay only an interested layman`s claim to archeology. So, I cant say what Pakistani sources have to say about the manuscript. I think I will do some more digging on this when I visit Pakistan next though...

From the little I checked, it seems the Bakshali Manuscript was written around 400 AD (although for some reason they seem to be having difficulty dating it properly, with estimates ranging from 100 AD to 750 AD). It was written around the time of the golden age of Jaina math. Jaina math served as a bridge between earlier math from the vedic period and the classical math of India of between the 6th and 12th centuries AD. The first Indian satellite incidentally was named after a mathematician Aryabhata from the classical math period. The significance of Jaina math (undertaken by the Jains) seems to be that it introduced the theory of numbers as an abstraction - this took math a step beyond where it had been developed in even earlier times in India which basically related to commercial and religious uses of math. Jaina math introduced the concept of infinity (which it conceived in terms of various dimensions - length, area, volume, and time). In addition to the famous concept of zero, the math included algebra (including simultaneous and quadratic equations), fractions and decimals, the pi and other mathematical concepts.

With the end of the classical period (12th century AD), the Arabs (Baghdadis in particular) invited hindu mathematicians over, mastered the math. This was the golden age of Arabs, when they appreciated other cultures. The Europeans picked up the math from Arabs, and so the numbering system is called Arabic numerals to this day, and algebra (which seems to me to be another copy job the Arabs did from Indian math) too entered the english language from some arab root (al-something). Of course, by learning from others, the Arabs were able to make their own contributions as well (algorithms, from al-Khwarizm) being the best known.

And so as Newton said, we stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us. Those giants being from every part of the world.

Long post, but this seems like a fascinating piece of history. And God Bless Google for putting it at our fingertips.

Hi Tauheed - Wondering if you had ever heard of the Bakhshali Manuscript through Pakistani sources ? It`s really interesting if you`re into Math ... no one gives subcontinental math the credit it deserves in it`s contribution to the world ...

``The Bakhshali Manuscript is the name given to the mathematical work written on birch bark and found in the summer of 1881 near the village Bakhshali (or Bakhshalai) of the Yusufzai subdivision of the Peshawar district (now in Pakistan). The village is in Mardan tahsil and is situated 50 miles from the city of Peshawar.``

``An Inspector of Police named Mian An-Wan-Udin (whose tenant actually discovered the manuscript while digging a stone enclosure in a ruined place) took the work to the Assistant Commissioner at Mardan who intended to forward the manuscript to Lahore Museum. However, it was subsequently sent to the Lieutenant Governor of Punjab who, on the advice of General A Cunningham, directed it to be passed on to Dr Rudolf Hoernle of the Calcutta Madrasa for study and publication. Dr Hoernle presented a description of the BM before the Asiatic Society of Bengal in 1882, and this was published in the Indian Antiquary in 1883. He gave a fuller account at the Seventh Oriental Conference held at Vienna in 1886 and this was published in its Proceedings. A revised version of this paper appeared in the Indian Antiquary of 1888. In 1902, he presented the Bakhshali Manuscript to the Bodleian Library, Oxford, where it is still (Shelf mark: MS. Sansk. d. 14). ``

RE: #65 by tahmed32:
While I do care about what happens to 2-3 generations down the road, my immediate concern is what I will see in my lifetime and that of my children. Things will go much worse before they get better and prevailing norms are all pointing in that direction with a few exceptions. For people who have put their lot in a foreign land their connection to the mother country will not survive beyond a generation or two. Hence their ambivalence is justified. If you know of people who have dealt with any facet of the pakistani civil machinery (currently with an ugly military mask) and the exisitng laws on property and governance and the implementation of those laws, you will know how bad is the rot. When judges and their representatives contact you directly and ask for bribes for cases where you are the aggrieved party and if you don`t comply you loose the case or it is dragged on for years/decades. It is all quite surreal when the judge himself meets you in a place of worship and accepts the bribe and keeps saying ``maula barkat dai``.
subhanallah.
Regards,
Aasif

P.S. On sri vidya dhar (rsridhar), leave him alone he is beyond help.

rsridhar #63 The bamian buddhas were not within pakistan, and pakistan can hardly be considered responsible for them. Like any other country, Pakistan is responsible for safe custody of ancient relics that lie within its borders. And to a large extent it has lived up to its responsibility, despite the chronic resource problems that all poor countries face.

You are in any case wrong in saying that Pakistanis were silent on the Bamian buddhas. As I recall, it was in fact Pakistan that spearheaded the international appeals to the taliban to spare the statues including visits to Kabul for this purpose by special representatives.

You quote from some mullah on his women hatred philosophy. This is not relevant to the article, but since you bring it up let me say that by presenting the words of an extremist as if they represented the entire society you are simply fooling yourself.

Let me try to correct your false impression of Pakistan vis-a-vis India in this matter (not that I think I will succeed) by presenting you with the following simple fact: The availability of sonogram technology was used by would-be parents to kill female fetuses in large numbers in India. The extent of these killings of females was so large that today there is a serious shortage of brides across India, particularly Haryana (by one generally accepted estimate it is about 40 million!!). We have no such problem in Pakistan, since the idea of using medical technology to identify girl-fetuses never really caught on in Pakistan.

But as I said, I dont expect such facts to cloud the ideology of ``Pakistan Bad, India Good`` that seems to be drilled in the minds of surprisingly many Indian posters on chowk. I would go so far as to say that you need to start worrying about the brainwashing that is evident among Indian posters. That does not mean that we Pakistanis dont need to worry about similar brainwashing in our madrassahs, and I also decry the ``India Bad, Pakistan Good`` ideology that is reflected in our schools and press and political discussions. Its just that your problems are at least as big as ours the way I see it - they just get less press since hindu extremism is a localized threat and not a global one. But the brainwashing is no less, and (at least from chowk it seems) more widespread.

Aasif #61 As I mentioned, time is against the fuedals - landholdings are split every generation thus reducing the power of individual feudals. The growing power of urban areas (due to rising population) vs. rural areas also works against them. The growing middle and professional classes are another factor.
Sitting in Sindh, the heartland of the feudals in Pakistan, the above may seem hard to believe. The rising threat is that of the mullahs I think. I have no doubt that even this threat has the tide of history against it and so will not succeed. But it can nevertheless put Pakistan back by a couple of generations if musharaff doesnt root it out. I am hoping that external pressures from the US and India (the latter in the form of peace overtures currently being made, not threats as the Indian governments have been inclined to do in the past) will help musharaff get his act together here.

re:#62 by tahmed32
Your saying that Pak is inheritor of a great civilization including Gandhara is academic when few in Pak protested when the Bamian Buddha statues were destroyed.
Anyway, Pak needs to correct the history that it is teaching its young minds in schools before this talk about ``being inheritors of a great civilisation`` becomes meaningful.

It is the same mentality that was silent at the destruction of Bamian Buddhas that seeks to destroy billboards depicting beautiful women because some feel they are ``unislamic``.
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2003-daily/05-07-2003/oped/o6.htm


Amirul Azeem, a Jamat Islami leader, explains the woman-hatred philosophy in his recently published article.
``It is neither unlawful nor unconstitutional to destroy the billboards that have women`s images. This action of destroying evil falls under the principle of self-help. The campaign to destroy the billboards was launched because the government had failed to take notice of this evil. The depiction of women on billboards is a cause of annoyance and shame. The billboards with women are akin to garbage. If the government fails to clear the garbage then it becomes the responsibility of the citizen to throw the garbage in the dustbin. In the same way it is the responsibility of the mullah to destroy the billboards that show women images``. (from above Url).



Another article in SAtribune talks about identity crisis in Pak. Pak churns out thousands of students from madrassas who are indoctined to a certain philosophy. This philosophy is not ``all encompassing``. It is excluvistic and hate-filled.
http://www.satribune.com/archives/jul06_12_03/opinion_chowdhuri.htm


``This crisis has its root in the fact that for some inexplicable reasons, Pakistan does not want to own the rich history of 3,000 years of the Indian subcontinent in spite of the indisputable reality that they know that they cannot claim to be the sole inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilisation and the subsequent history of the Indian subcontinent.

This becomes quite clear from even a cursory glance at the Pakistani school and college level history books. In fact, Pakistani historians are in a dilemma about whether to accept the golden age of Mauryas and Guptas of ancient India or not. Similarly, whether King Asoka, who is a part of the Indian subcontinent folklore, belongs to them or to India.

Therefore, Pakistani history books either skip or make just a cursory mention of some of the glorious periods of ancient Indian history. Apparently, Pakistani historians feel that projecting these Hindu and Buddhist Kings would be “blasphemous”.``

``Some of the Pakistani historians even propagate the ridiculous theory that the Mughal Kings ruled the subcontinent not from Delhi but from Lahore or Rawalpindi. They refuse to accept the fact that after Aurangzeb the Mughal Kings squandered their riches and proved to be incompetent rulers which enabled the British to usurp power from the mid-18th century onwards.

They argue that the British could conquer India because the Hindu Maharajas collaborated with the colonial masters and, therefore, the downfall of the Mughal dynasty was due to the machinations of the Hindu traitors who sold out the country to the British.``

With this kind of indoctrination going on for the past several decades, truth is always a casualty. Though it is good to know that some people in Pak may want to be associated with the rich heritage of IVC, Gandhara etc, they form a tiny minority.
Sridhar

RE #60 by tahmed32:
I think you still have to see who got elected from punjab and that will tell you whether the problem still exists or not. Religious parties are in for the long haul in NWFP and balochistan. Balochistan still has a lot of sardar power which is not a viable option. Feudals exist in punjab and sindh and my question was who is going to replace them in punjab. Except lahore there are very few alternative except the feudals (one cousin or another). Draining the swamps may mean draining the military budget and transferring what little wealth we have in education. Both vocational and traditional system of schooling. NGOs can do a lot but a lot more needs to be done. I agree with you on musharraf but then he should devolve some power to local authorities and let them do what they should be doing and step down himself.

I think veersh is out waiting for inspiration to strike after imbibing sooma and khmar. He is probably floating on a persian rug with a harley davidson. May the gods have mercy on the souls who are brave enough to try his satanic recipes.

RE #59 by faisaluno:
I agree with most of what you say with a few exception. The abuse of power by MQM and its cronies did affect a lot of people. A lot of people were killed and tortured but what the essshtaablishment showed on the media was blown out of proportion. They needed justification for the operation cleanups in karachi so a butcher house became a torture cell. MQM being one of the few middle class parties held a lot of promise but thanks to the angels in khakis and the politicians who could not tolerate such trifurcation (mult?) of power wanted to cut it down to size. The bhatta culture did target the awaam and there are a lot of disgruntled karachiites. All in all they did not target their except perhaps haqiqis which sadly our their own. May be another case too of much too soon. If anyone can control these jehadis in karachi it will not be the saint living close to nazimabad with his flowing beard strolling in the median turned into a park. It has to be the MQM. So hope springs eternel. To each his/her own kawab/kabob/kabab or dosa.

RE #58 by ijaz_gul:
Very interesting. Does this not coincide with what our neighbors said it all along? Any references to these biblical scholars?

Regards,
Aasif

ijaz gul #58 We should indeed be proud that we as pakistanis are the custodians of the a civilization that is significant not just to this region but to all of mankind - after all, the IVC represents one of the first ``baby steps`` mankind took anywhere in the world as it moved from the stone-age and formed human settlements. We are also sharing it with the rest of humanity, both for tourism and scientific scholarship, and for that I think we can credit not just the tourist agencies but also the Pakistan Archaeology Department as well as traditions set by people like Prof. Dani.

As for the Indians, they too are custodians of important settlements of this civilization in India, while recognizing that the civilization was centered around an ancient river in what is now Pakistan, and that the vast majority of the settlements, as well as Harappa which is considered to be the nerve center of this civilization, are in Pakistan. As such, Indian interest in this civilization is healthy I think. The only thing unhealthy I have noticed (in checking the internet) is the use of this civilization by competing ideological factions in India (notably Dravidian vs. Aryan) as well as some fake scholarship (e.g. books advertized from India that claim to have deciphered the IVC writing when in fact all recognized scholars agree that the writing remains undeciphered). But this should not cloud the fact that both India and Pakistan have something in common here, and joint responsibility to future generations to preserve and protect and learn more about this great civilization.

I should also note that this civilization is great not because of military power (during its time, there simply were not competing nations to conquer or to protect against), but due to the true hallmarks of a civilization: trade and commerce, town planning, creativity, being the most prominent as evidenced from the remains.

We Pakistanis are indeed blessed with a rich history. Gandhara is another great civilization that followed on the heels of the IVC, and Asoka was undoubtedly one of the most enlightened emperors the world has known (Bollywood, I may add, made a movie about him as well).

I just hope that one day we will be a prosperous enough nation for the average Pakistani to have the time and resources to enjoy the rich heritage left behind by these wonderful civilizations.

asif:

i am afraid you are comparing kawabs with dossas here. mqm leadership horrible as it is, did not target the awam. their beef was with another brilliant creation of our establishment, mqm haqiqi. sub-human jehadis and their mma sugar daddies on the other hand have absolutely nor regards for the life of ordinary paki. members of mma leadership, who have never seen a mike that they did not like turn strangely silent after incidences like the one that happened in quetta on friday. and amazing to see the shia party still staying with mma. and what is going through the minds of geniuses in our establishment? i mean they justifiably kicked mqm`s ass for crimes less heinous. what is going to take for the whip to fall upon the mullahs?

Aasif #57 The feudals are a dying problem I think as a result of urbanization and the splitting of landholdings from one generation of landlords to the next. They are largely finished as a force in most of panjab, and never amounted to much in nwfp. They will remain of course a force in Sindh and southern panjab for the next two or three generations, then they are gone. It is the jehadis who are the biggest threat now all across pakistan. The only way to clean them up i think is to ``drain the swamps`` where they grow (reform madrassas, end flow of funds to them, end special privileges that musharaff gave them whereby they ``won`` elections). musharaff is currently the only man on earth who can do that and he has not done half as much as he could have so far i think ...

As for veeresh...he does seem to have floated off into thin air ever since i suggested he provide the recipe which he said he had for that menu he had provided...nevertheless, I still retain faith that he will come floating back to earth at some point...

With reference to the Article by Toheed, it is a pity that the Indians are making good business of what is ours. They call it the Srivastava civilisation. As for us, the dilemma and coflict of our identity has cost us this piece of history.

In the Holy Bible and Torah, there is a reference in the Book of Genesis to the land of Havala and the Pishon that flew through it fed by five tributeries. This was the Eden of Adam and Eve before they were banished. Most Biblical scholars conclude that this river is Indus or the one that flowed next to it.

so we inherit a great land that ruled the world then and again during the mauryan empire when Chandra Gupta ruled from Taxila. The kingdom extended from what is now Bharat to central Asia, Greece and Egypt. Much of local folklore is also found in Homer`s poetry, The influence was carried from here to Europe through Arab traders.

RE:#55 by tahmed32:
Unfortunately most if not all of these MQM critters are local and therefore are not going anywhere. Except perhaps their leadership (much like the feudal, industrialist thugs up north) these people have no where to go. How about a deal: We democratize and cleanup the mess in karachi and you try to do the same up north. You have the added benefit of having the religious nuts waiting in the wings as soon as the feudals loose their grip. Karachi and to a certain degree lahore have a populace who is relatively well educated and extremely diverse. So all is not lost but who is going to cleanup quetta and peshawar? And jhang? and southern punjab etc. etc. I digress.
I have sampled the naan-daal in lahore many moons ago.. and I do agree it is exquisite (Don`t know about the chai as I am an anti-chai karachite (a rarity indeed!)) . BUT... we in karachi have this and a lot more. You know a true cosmpolitan multi ethnic city offers a lot to person who is not afraid to travel without a motorcade and is comfortable outside the cantonment.
On veersh .. well you have to read his posts more carefully and you will see a person not even trying to control his substance abuse.. :)

Regards,
Aasif