Sufi, Practice Love Because Mathematics is Difficult

ironman #29 Significance is relative. Relative to other forms of life on earth, man is no doubt very significant indeed in terms of his intellectual achievements. Relative to the overall scheme of things, as these intellectual achievements have themselves revealed, man is insignificant.

I dont think one loses an interest in something because it is an illusion: indeed, we are often more in thrall of what we know to be an illusion than of what we consider to be real. As an example: a movie audience will sit in rapt attention, fully absorved in a movie, for two hours. Try making them sit still like that in real life. The greatly expanded horizons and even dimensions that modern physics provide us, including the latest understanding of our entire universe being itself an illusion, makes this reality all the more interesting.

I do not wish to overstate the parallel between sufiism and physics, though, and basically agree with you that the former had only a fleeting understanding of what modern physics is now establishing. Some sufis were no doubt genuinely interested in persuing questions like ``why are we here``, but they had no real answers except vague speculations. And of course, sufiism is part of the peeri-muridi culture in muslim societies that is nothing more than primitive supersition, and does not being to compare with the majesty of modern physics.

tahmed32, Couple of points:

``Science has steadily pushed man from being the center of the universe to being an insignificant blip on an insignificant planet in an insignificant galaxy in a mighty universe...``


Wouldn`t you say the very fact Man has made this discovery proves he is no `insignificant blip`?!

I mean, can one put a limit on human intelligence and achievment. Can one say with assurance that man WILL NEVER reach the stars? He`s tiny all right...but not insignificant!

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You missed my question on the sufi issue. Let me put it another way.

Once we know something is unreal, we quickly lose interest in it. Even children are like that. Going by your assertion on illusion, a sufi or `enlightened person` (whatever that means) should have no interest in life.

However, the exact opposite seems to be true! Such people are seen to love life very intimately...experiencing it at a very fine level of awareness that evokes awe. Their writings and saying are testimony.

Why should a (sane) man sing paeans to illusion???

ironman #27 The sufis dont see anything more than you and I see, of course. Although many of them no doubt claim they see the holy prophet riding by, and others claim to have direct access to God, and so forth. That of course is nonsense, and it is fascinating just how many people buy that nonsense.
The only thing sufiism added that makes sense is that they did not accept what you and I (and the sufis themselves of course, and all other human beings) perceive as ``reality``. They considered this to be an illusion. But they of course did not have either the intellectual tools to even begin to understand exactly why reality is an illusion. Or to have any way to prove what they believed. It was an act of blind faith.

The is the pathbreaking work now being done by physicists is that they are finding out what lies behind that illusion. By determining that the subatomic particles of which our universe is made are themselves mere projections emanating from entities residing in another dimension, they are on the verge of stripping our entire universe, and every living creature in it, of the final layer of respectability that comes with being ``real``. A mind-boggling achievement when you think about it.

Science has steadily pushed man from being the center of the universe to being an insignificant blip on an insignificant planet in an insignificant galaxy in a mighty universe that we are now on the verge of determining is merely a projection emanating from a fifth dimension.

tahmed32,

``The deficit was then accounted for in the 1990`s through experiments in Japan and other places which indicated the reason: the sun released the predicted number of neutrinos, but after they were released by the sun two-thirds of them were transformed into the two other known varieties of neutrinos. The equipment used to measure neutrinos coming from the sun did not measure these other varieties.``

1990s eh? Seems just yesterday I was reading about it. I must be older than I imagine! Thanks for the info.


On the sufi thing, tahmed, you seem VERY certain they see what you say they see! In that case, what`s all this `human love` business in suficsm. I mean an illusion is an illusion, right? Why bother with our fellow humans at all?

ironman #25 I have no doubt that the sufis were simply aware that ``duniya aik maya hai`` (the world is an illusion), but had no clue (as indeed no one else did either until very recently) on the source of this illusion.

On the neutrino issue: I did a quick check, and it appears that there indeed was a problem because the observed number of neutrinos coming from the sun were a third of the predicted number (which was 65 billion neutrinos per second for every single square centimeter of surface area on earth!!). The deficit was then accounted for in the 1990`s through experiments in Japan and other places which indicated the reason: the sun released the predicted number of neutrinos, but after they were released by the sun two-thirds of them were transformed into the two other known varieties of neutrinos. The equipment used to measure neutrinos coming from the sun did not measure these other varieties.

tahmed32,

On the subject of mystic sayings on reality and illusion, I think we can all rest assured that these sayings do not intend to include particle physics in their realm!!


Incidentally, on the neutrino issue I remember reading about a problem in the theory and observation. Theoretically far, far more neutrinos should be produced by the sun than the practically observed number. Wonder if they solved that one.

ironman #21 it is of course rather obvious that ``superstrings`` is just a term used to refer to entities that are considered to exist at some microcosmic level, and that the term does not imply that these are tiny little pieces of string. In quantum physics, it is not uncommon for fanciful terms to be used for such entities (e.g. we also have entities with ``user friendly`` names like ``Strange Quark`` and ``Charm Quark`` but which do not mean that there are more strange or more charming than their other brothers and sisters like ``Up Quark`` and ``Neutrino``).

The last sentence in your post is interesting: the significant thing is that in fact quarks and bosons and neutrinos and other strange specimen of the subatomic world are more than mere mathematical abstractions - these have been actually observed (albeit in terms of their behavior) through very real physical experiments AFTER their existence was predicted by mathematical reasoning. E.g. neutrinos (zillions of which pass through your body every second) were ``captured`` via use of large containers of water dug deep inside earth. The rest were identified after atoms were smashed together using very real equipment costing billions of dollars and spread in a circumference of a few miles.

However, the relationship between superstrings and the rest of these subatomic particles is NOT that the latter are made out of the former (as you indicate). Subatomic particles are in fact considered to be PROJECTIONS in our three dimensional universe that are made using information maintained by superstrings that exist OUTSIDE these three dimensions. Atoms are then of course made up of these subatomic particles, and everything else is made up of atoms. That is why in my earlier post I used the analogy of the movie (i.e. our universe) being a projection of information maintained on a CD (i.e. superstrings).

So, after a search for meaning over the past few millenia, manking may in fact finally be coming to grips with what our universe is all about: an illusion created from information maintained in another dimension.

I leave it to you to contemplate the parallels between this conclusion to which the cutting edge of quantum physics is pointing towards today, and sufiism and indeed with other forms of religion (i.e. that what we perceive as reality is indeed just an illusion).

tahmed32 & ironman:

Considering the amount of sub-division that has been done by science rearding the nature of all that exists, it is still a bit too early to use the word Fundamental, thus trying to put a full-stop to what could lead to another fascinating truth. Don`t you think those vibrating strings still have something underlying their being here in the Universe as the basis of all that happens? I`m not sure about the nature of the vibrations, whether they are periodic sinusoidal or varying with the nature of the event and matter they are a part of, but what I do know is that the causal events bringing about those vibrations in the first place are what should be called the Fundamentals of it all... not some physical, invisible atom or string. So I agree with ironman when he says,

`But there`s no end for knowledge, is there. Lets say all atomic particles are indeed made of vibrating strings. Now what are these strings made of ?!!!`.

Naqshbandi, thanks for your reply #18.

``have you ever sat in front of someone and just felt all your stress, anxiety, melt away, felt a feeling of great tranquility overcome you and felt as light as a feather and cleansed on the INSIDE as if you have just come out of a long hot shower--all just by sitting in the presence of the Shaykh? Accompanied by a wonderful fragrance as well which remains with one for ages afterwards along with the fast beating of the heart.
Subhan Allah. (BTW the holy person was my Pir Sahib)``

I understand what you mean. However, since you are a research scholar (and not a layman as such) I would like to ask if you have analysed this phenomenon at all? The tranquility/buoyancy may be real, but have you traced its cause?

I mean, being in the presence of your master makes YOU happy. However, it doesn`t cure your warts or remove your sinus problems...and at a larger level, doesn`t affect the world one bit.

So, is it tranquility you are after? What`s your goal?

(Being a medical man, you should know well the causes of moods...simple chemicals in the brain).

tahmed,

``What makes the superstring theory fascinating I think is (which, as I mentioned, now incorporates the concept that our entire universe is merely a projection of knwoledge encoded in superstrings)``


My understanding after some minor reading of superstrings is that...there actually are no strings!

Mathematicians and Physicists think in terms of governing equations...without placing much value on the actual phenomena. Thus, they consider diverse phenomena like slowly-moving-fluids and flow-of-heat to exhibit similar behavior, since they can be described by the same equation.

Quantum behavior...in other words...the fact that atoms and sub-atomic particles prefer certain states (say 1,5,8,10...) and not (1,2,3,4..). This, someone noticed is remarkably similar to the way vibrating strings prefer certain states. They were then able to apply vib-string theory successfully to explain a large number of sub-atomic interactions.

So...there`s no string anywhere as such. Just the fact that assuming particles to be vibrating strings can bring a vexingly diverse range of atomic phenomena under one umbrella.

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But there`s no end for knowledge, is there. Lets say all atomic particles are indeed made of vibrating strings. Now what are these strings made of ?!!!

Gill #19 Agreed that in order to be considered seriously, any theory must be testable. Otherwise it is speculation.

Thus, by now the existence of atoms, and the basic operations of the atomic level has of course been proved beyond doubt (4000 years or so after the Greeks first speculated on the existence of atoms). Indeed, they can actually ``see`` atoms with the help of special equipment, and some years ago IBM actually manipulated individual atoms to write out it`s logo. In addition, the existence of quarks and other denizens of the sub-atomic world has also been proved with the help of some of the biggest and most expensive machines ever built (the particle accelerators) - the Higgs Boson is the only major particle predicted in quantum physics that remains unseen to date.

What makes the superstring theory fascinating I think is (which, as I mentioned, now incorporates the concept that our entire universe is merely a projection of knwoledge encoded in superstrings) they recently HAVE DEVISED A WAY TO TEST IT. This is done by predicting the circumference of the event horizon in Black Holes which, as a corollary to this theory should change by a certain value when it absorbs a new star that is a function of the entropy (understood in the non-thermodynamic sense of being pure information) of the object being absorbed. (I am incidentally just an interested layman in these things, and what I just metioned is from the cover article of the July issue of the Scientific American where the authors are actually involved in testing this ``universe as hologram`` theory). Perhaps you can read up on it and as a mathematician ``project`` (excuse the pun) some light on the subject.

On the question of the Which Principal, if it was the mid-60`s then that would be Dr. Nazir. He was a biologist. Sufi Tabassum was before his time. I joined government college in 1965 after finishing school, and Dr. Nazir was on his way out. I dont recall the cricket captains - my father used to be captain of the government college football team though, back in the early 1940`s, and a team picture with him in it was still there when I joined.

tahmed32:

I do not remember Principal`s name although out of the three that you have mentioned, Prof. Nazir Ahmad is the likeliest person in question. The incident that I had reported belonged to probably mid-1960`s. Although I never met Sufi Tabassum in person but I knew a lot about him so that I wouldn`t have forgotten him.

Sufi Afzal was not bad in mathematics; he didn`t like mathematics as much as he loved Persian poetry. He could not have topped in the university without securing 100% marks (or near enough) in mathematics.

The theory of superstrings that you mentioned in your feedback is supposed to be key element in the scheme of unifying the fundamental forces, although I don`t have much up to date information in this field. Quantum Gravity is thought to be the hottest approach now.

But again opinions are divided on this issue. Even if the mathematicians came up with a theory which unified all the forces, there will still be skeptics because they don`t believe in any theory unless it is verified by actual empirical observations. As little as I know about this matter, there is no possibility of direct empirical verification of such a theory in the foreseeable future. But then indirect verification, if it could be achieved, would be quite exciting. But in spite of all kind of promising progress, the theorists still are nowhere near the goal yet.

In my time, the rivalry between Islamia College and Government College was as strong as ever. Government College had won the university finals in cricket beating Islamia College for a couple of years. Waqar Hassan was the skipper of the Government College team, I am forgetting the name of the skipper of the Islamia College team. Although Islamia College was still the champion in hockey finals.

I had lost touch with these affairs after 1967. Then I had devoted my life to Hydaulics only Before writing the essay on Sufi, his line flashed across my mind for no perceptible reason and the long-forgotten memories started resurfacing.

Thanks for your interest and sharing your thoughts with me.

Mohammad Gill

My progress? A long long way to go...but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Let me explain the feeling I felt: have you ever sat in front of someone and just felt all your stress, anxiety, melt away, felt a feeling of great tranquility overcome you and felt as light as a feather and cleansed on the INSIDE as if you have just come out of a long hot shower--all just by sitting in the presence of the Shaykh? Accompanied by a wonderful fragrance as well which remains with one for ages afterwards along with the fast beating of the heart.
Subhan Allah. (BTW the holy person was my Pir Sahib)

That is why Rumi said:

Yek zamaneh ba sohbat i awliya
behtar ast az sad hazaar saal e ta`at i bay-riya

A moment in the company of the Saints of Allah
Is better than a thousand years of sincere worship!

Gill sahib: Another good article from you. Perhaps the choice between math and sufiism is not an either/or anymore: I was reading recently about the latest mathematical constructs of reality, and it now seems that what we see as three dimensional reality may indeed be a projection of information encoded in superstrings (which are now supposed to underlie quarks and photons and co., which in turn underlie protons and co, which in turn underlie atoms, which in turn underlie everything we observe). In other words, the world, per current math, is indeed a projection in the same way as a (digital) movie is a projection from information encoded on a computer disk.

Any additional light you could project on this matter of reality being a projection of knowledge maintained in a fifth dimension (that of the superstrings) would be appreciated.

And references to Government College Lahore and Islamia College bring back memories of some memorable cricket matches between these two rivals (I was at Government College). I wonder if the Government College principal you refer to was Sufi Tabassum, or Professor Nazir Ahmed (I joined when he was retiring), or perhaps Professor Rashid?? Each one of these was a character in his own right - Sufi sahib being a great urdu scholar of course with a great sense of humor (my father used to recount some stories about him), professor Nazir was so popular with the students that there was a movement to keep him on when his retirement was announced. And Principal Rashid - one could write a book about him I think (he was also a college mate of my late father) - he was had a cool and impressive personality, and showed his true colors once when he courageously walked into the middle of a couple of hundred students who had assembled at the open air theater and were all worked up and ready to take an anti-Ayub procession out: he calmly took the mike, and tried to talk them out of it. Some students tossed a couple of small stones his way, and he calmly responded by saying that they were tossing stones not at Prof. Rashid the man, but at their own principal. So, I am just curious exactly which principal you met.

Naqsh Furyadi ke liye....

yeh masaaeley tasawwuff yeh teraa heessaab Ghalib
toojhe hum wali sumujhtey tu jo dunya daar hota...:-)

lajawab unwaan hai muzmoon ka Gill saheb --

Nice article Gill sahib. But one thing I would like to make clear that it`s not only the green robed ascetics who are to be classified as Sufis.. many ordinary people that you meet in your daily lives have such inclinations. Since sufism stresses to be more practical than just leaving the interested person with a set of confusing theories, it becomes quite normal for people in everyday life to voluntarily or involuntarily exhibit Sufi like characteristics and behaviour. There are people who show love for their creator with as much intensity as a Sufi and who are bold, courageous enough to share others problems, their joys and their sad moments... sometimes without being the least religious!

savvy, you said:

``Question for the author: He followed his heart , and you followed your head.``

Your answer lies in your own sentence.