Coming to Terms with Kargil

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roohi:
By referring to letters that are more than five years old, you have proven my point!

Yes, I had visited that site long time ago at the urging of YLH but did not report back to him because I found it so pathetic. The site hardly gets any updates. The latest news referred to the pre-Musharraf period. There were absolutely no complaints or voicing of the Pakistani Hindu issues. I visited it again today, and the latest news still relate to the pre-Musharraf period.

But as I said, let us not waste our time on the situation of Pakistani Hindus, and focus instead on our Muslim brothers in India to make them an equal participant in the country`s progress.

Dost #202,

Did you ever read the Pakistani Hindu Patrika at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7295/ ?

Here is a letter to DAWN from their site ...

Below is the letter of Mr. Krishan Lal Khatri from Umerkot which was published in the DAWN Newspaper on the 26th of June, 1998.

DAWN Letters 26 June, 1998
Indians, not Hindus
THE article, ``An indigestible entity``, by F.S. Aijazuddin (Dawn, June 16) prompts me to write this letter. He has lamented the plight of Indian Muslims.

I reserve my opinion about the author`s version but refer to the problems of Pakistani Hindus. In our country every act of India is regarded as a Hindu conspiracy and the Hindus, in general, (not Indians) are condemned. And the worst sufferers of such thinking are Pakistani Hindus.

It is fresh in my memory what anguish and agony that we, Hindu students, had to endure at our university hostels from the day India exploded its nuclear devices till Pakistan did the same. Our Muslim friends and fellow students looked at us strangely and asked us about India`s future nuclear plans, as if we were the decision-making authority of India.

I urge my enlightened countrymen to come forward and help remove this misunderstanding.

KRISHAN LAL R. KHATRI
Umerkot, Sindh


In response, below is the letter of Mr. Asif Noorani which was published on the 5th of July, 1998

DAWN Letters 5 July, 1998
Minorities in the subcontinent

Mr Krishan Lal Khatri`s letter from Umerkot reaffirms my viewpoint that if there has been one adverse effect of Partition it is in the sufferings of the Muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan. For our part, we should realize that our differences are with India and not with the Hindus. Had that been so we wouldn`t have been on such good terms with Nepal, which is the only Hindu country in the world.

Why should 1.5 per cent of our countrymen be held responsible for any anti-Pakistan act by the Indian government or by a fundamentalist political party? The religion that most Pakistanis subscribe to preaches tolerance and calls for providing security to the minorities. Another point to remember is that such a minuscule minority cannot be a threat to the majority, which is why there is hardly any Hindu-Muslim riot in Pakistan, just as there are no acts of violence against the Muslims in Nepal who form only 3.8 per cent of the Himalayan state`s population.

Some of the history books that our children have to study also smack of prejudice against the Hindus. What our writers should realise is that the Muslim League was in confrontation with the Congress and not against the Hindus. And for that matter many Muslims were also opposed to Partition and that included such persons as Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, who was a devout Muslim and whose tafseer of the Holy Quran is a great scholarly work.

ASIF NOORANI
Karachi

ahmadzai #199


`` Here is fairly independent site detailing Pakistan`s missile program:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story/0,2763,804642,00.html ``

The Guardian is not an authority on Pakistani missile program.

`` See that it mentions China as providing help, but not North Korea. NK is a recent addition in the blame game trying to find whipping boys and villains. You think Israel may not have transfered technology from the USA and India from former Soveit Union? You seriously think that countries would rather like to reinvent the wheel rather than add value to some thing that already exists? ``

North Korea has been actively selling missiles and missile parts to anyone who buys it. Spainish frigate seized a consignment of ballistic missiles to Yemen. It is not a figament of my imagination. North Korea could never build Nodong missiles without China`s help. China is using North Korea as a proxy for plausible deniability.

Israel and India have been recipients of technology from others. Israel has transferred US technology to a lot of countries. PAF new F-7 SUper prototypes have Israeli fire control radars.

`` Metallurgy in Pakistan may not be a developed field, but these days its the value addition that counts. A country can procure the material it desires from foreign sources and add value to it. Pakistan has not produced a car because of economics (small demand will not justify huge capital outlays). But arms development is not dependent on economics. ``

Value addition is what that counts. In the case of a tank and armour vehicles I expect a country to produce the armour, tank engine and artillery gun for the tank to be considered indigenious. Pakistan has enough demand to justify an auto industry. Pakistan has not produced it because of lack of expertise and capital.

`` As regards your last sentence, ``There is no international media. I can get information from Pakistani, Indian, Middle Eastern, East Asian, American and British newspapers. I get a good perspective of the news.``, I regret that you went for the words rather than the substance of the link. ``

I am capable of using logic to separate fact from fiction. I may not do it always.



:-)

Ref ahmadzai #199

[You think Israel may not have transfered technology from the USA and India from former Soveit Union? You seriously think that countries would rather like to reinvent the wheel rather than add value to some thing that already exists?]

Under the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), the four major powers have agreed not to transfer missile technology to others; China never subscribed to the MTCR and when pressured to do so by the US, found ways to go around the MTCR.

When you look at the Brahmos missile jointly developed by India and Russia, its range has been deliberately limited to 195 miles so that Russia will not fall afoul of its MTCR commitments.

One of the things that strike you is that the Indian missiles are pencil thin compared to the fat cylinders such as the original V-2 and its derivatives in the US. In his autobiography, Abul Kalam mentions that in his only meeting with Werner von Braun, von Braun cautioned him about the dangerous vibrations that would result if the diameter-to-length ratio was too small. Von Braun also has stated that Indian missiles are 100% homegrown, a certification that Pakistan has yet to get for its missiles from anybody.

ahmadzai:
You are correct on two grounds. I am passionate about human rights (esp. re. those of Muslims in India) and the state of women in the interior of Sindh and Panjab. I am aware of the despicable customs of kara-kari and honour killings.

But, you have not properly interpreted my post.

The idea was to suggest that the reason why you were not that well-informed about your Hindu citizens is that they are invisible in your media. The Dawn item was to show how even when the news was published, it was in the obscure magazine section and not the more widely read news section. It was not my intention to use it as indicative of the state of hindus in Pakistan.

And while you are right about the oppression of muslim women in Sindh, the oppression of a woman at the hands of her own family (father, brother, husband, etc.) is of a different nature than that shown in that news item.

I am passionate about the rights of Indian muslims but NOT of Pakistani hindus. The reason is the same as that pointed by stuka. Unlike Muslims who were promised full rights in a secualr India, Hindus were promised no such rose garden in Pakistan. We and our parents knew what the status of ``impures`` will be in the evocative expression ``land of the pure`` [yes, yes, you, I and a hundred other people now know what the initials of Pakistan really stood for]. In these circumstances, anyone who chose to stay there, maybe because of a too-little-too-late speech by a leader in the Assembly - when even that speech was suppressed - had no right to deserve any better than he got .

You may be right about the bright chances of Hindus getting better rights in Pakistan in the current cliamate. But if they do, it will be because of the kindness of Muslims. I don`t think that the Hindus themselves have the spunk. I had, in my previous post, highlighted how the man in the Dawn story did not have the courage to identify himself with a fairly innocuous statement. I think that any Hindu with an iota of dignity or self-respect has already left the country. Those who remain are quite content to live like worms as long as they are allowed to live.

Babu:

Here is fairly independent site detailing Pakistan`s missile program:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story/0,2763,804642,00.html

See that it mentions China as providing help, but not North Korea. NK is a recent addition in the blame game trying to find whipping boys and villains. You think Israel may not have transfered technology from the USA and India from former Soveit Union? You seriously think that countries would rather like to reinvent the wheel rather than add value to some thing that already exists?

Metallurgy in Pakistan may not be a developed field, but these days its the value addition that counts. A country can procure the material it desires from foreign sources and add value to it. Pakistan has not produced a car because of economics (small demand will not justify huge capital outlays). But arms development is not dependent on economics.

As regards your last sentence, ``There is no international media. I can get information from Pakistani, Indian, Middle Eastern, East Asian, American and British newspapers. I get a good perspective of the news.``, I regret that you went for the words rather than the substance of the link.

:-)

dost-mittar:

In response to your impressive but an emotional post, I will just reiterate that what happened to this Hindu girl is no worse or better than what happens to any Muslim girl living in the interior of Sindh or undevelped parts of Punjab. For example, how do you feel about the raping of a Muslim teacher in southern Punjab that became international news last year? How much do you know about Muslim Sindhi women killed under honor killing, wedded to their cousins 2-5 year old to keep lands within the family, or even wedded off to Quran, etc. ?

If you do the statistical analysis of the human rights violations in Pakistan, you will get only one result: Its the poor Pakistani women, irrespective of the religion or ethnicity, living in the backward regions of Sindh, Punjab and Balochistan, who suffer the most. Bringing in a Hindu or Muslim example is purely emotionalism

Without getting into emotionalism, its the women of our Pakhtoon belt who is treated with most respect, although keeping her in a ``shuttlecock Burkah`` looked horrifying to westerners in Afghanistan. We can debate why Pakhtoon women are better treated on a separate board.

At least I see that Hindus have an advantage under current international situation. If they had the leadership to capitalize on it, this is the right time to demand their rights from General Pervaiz Musharraf`s Pakistan. At least in order to look good to the West, we will give them more respect than our own Muslim women living a life of painful existence.

Stuka:

``No problem. Hope everything is okay at home. I do enjoy reading your posts as long as we agree to disagree on Kashmir :) ``

Agreeing to disagree is OK, but let us not sideline Kashmir issue during our bilateral talk under this agreement.

:-)

ahmadzai:
``The situation of urban Hindus that you have brought to light, if true, is something that an average Muslim Pakistani will not even be aware of. Reason: we have too many issues amongst ourselves. But I promise that I will collect more accurate information about the situation through sources in the media, such as Jang Group of Newspapers and GEO TV and share so that we are able to confirm or disconfirm our beliefs.``

Good luck at finding more info. And don`t blame yourself for not knowing enough. I have been perusing Pakistani newspapers for seven years now to look for any news, op-ed or letters to the editor. As far as they are concerned, Hindus are almost invisible or maybe dont even exist. You can read them for months without finding any news item concerning them. If you do a search of Pakistani newspapers and `hindu`, the chances are that almost all references would be with regard to India or Indian history and they will be mostly quite cruel (usually spiced with adjectives like bania, cunning, treaherous, etc.) and totally unmindful of the fact that their readers might include some of these very people.

Here is a news from the current website of Dawn. I should add that although it is a news item, it was published not in the news section but in their weekly magazine section. [ Notice the sentence ````Imagine what would happen if a Muslim girl eloped with a Hindu boy,`` asks a citizen on condition of anonymity. ``If this unfortunate incident occurred, the entire Hindu community would be brought to the pyre.`` The poor fellow making even an innocent statement like this cannot dare to let his name be known because of the consequences. The more horrendous miscarriage of justice in the Best Bakery Case in Gujarat comes to mind. There at least, the case is a front page and continuing news in all Indian and even internaional media and the National Human Rights Commission is moving the Supreme Court to reopen the case].

``Religious conflict in Sindh

By Imdad Soomro


In Jacobabad`s Bano Bazaar, the thickly populated ancient bazaar in the centre of the city, both the Hindu and Muslim communities have lived together through the years.

Before Gen Zia`s regime, there had never been a distinction between them. Both communities enjoyed their religious festivals and holidays peacefully.

``The great harmony that I had witnessed amongst our communities, all my life, is not there anymore,`` says an old resident of Bano Bazaar. The elders of the city, who fed the pigeons on John Jacob`s clock tower, have gone to their graves and the brotherhood that was once found between them, now remains only in their memoirs.

A recent incident regarding the conversion of a Hindu girl to Islam and her marriage to a Muslim man, has widened the gulf that has developed between the two communities over the years.

One night, when her mother and ailing father woke up in the middle of the night, they found that Sonia was missing from her bed. When they turned to the phone to inform the police, they noticed a number on the CLI, which belonged to the PS Saddar`s SHO. As sources revealed, he is from Rojhan and a relative of Zulfikar Ghunjo, who got married to Sonia.

When the couple were brought before the court in Jacobabad, Sonia repeatedly stated, ``I`ve not been enticed by anyone and I have accepted Zulfikar as my husband and Islam as my eternal religion.`` The court permitted them to live together.

Sonia has since been renamed Fatima. People of Bano Bazaar, including Sonia`s parents, were surprised that a matriculate, Sonia fell in love with a boy who earns barely a thousand rupees a month. ``Sonia couldn`t live a day without me. It is difficult to believe that she left me in the middle of the night,`` Sonia`s mother says, weeping.

A greater humiliation followed, when in this peaceful community, the couple was paraded in the streets and chowks like a triumph, while the crowd frantically raised slogans of ``Allah-o-Akbar`` and ``Ishq Zindabad.`` ``This time they even raised slogans against those who support the Hindu community,`` says a local journalist.

It is rumoured that couples such as this one are encouraged and protected by religious bigots. Well-informed sources say that Sonia had been kept in custody for 14 days in Rojhan with the help of a very influential individual.

Members of the Hindu community and other citizens believe that such cases occur only when the local administration is blackmailed by religious parties. Though an FIR had been lodged against the SHO and others, Sonia was kept in the custody of the accused party (as it often happens in similar cases) and the police didn`t take any action. ``We are not opposing love marriages or conversion,`` says Babu Mahesh, president of the Hindu General Panchait, Jacobabad. ``But the point to be discussed is that such girls from the Hindu community should be kept in the Darul Aman or with a neutral party. Only then, should she be allowed to give her statement,`` he urged.

When Sonia`s family tried to contact her in Rojhan, and went to call upon `them` to free her, they were refused. When Sonia was brought before the court, her parents rushed to talk to her, but in vain. ``When we tried to hear her version of the story, she got a call on her mobile and she even refused to talk to us,`` her parents lamented.

In Jacobad`s history, Hindu women have come out on the streets twice. Once on a call for the Joint Electorate System, and now in Sonia`s case. Hundreds of women came out on the streets and demanded Sonia`s release.

In Sindh the tradition of Niyani Merr, when women come at someone`s door with a request, has always been considered an act of virtue. Bloody disputes have been settled and people have even forgiven the murderers of their dear ones as a result of this tradition. However, in Sonia`s case, Niyani Merr was of no avail.

Jacobabad`s Hindu community feels insecure. ``Imagine what would happen if a Muslim girl eloped with a Hindu boy,`` asks a citizen on condition of anonymity. ``If this unfortunate incident occurred, the entire Hindu community would be brought to the pyre.`` Some years ago, a young girl fell in love with a Hindu youth and eloped with him. Some days later, their dead bodies were found in the Indus, near the Sukkur Barrage.

Despite these incidents, the civil authority in interior Sindh remains oblivious. It, for some reason, never breaks the silence. But Javed Qazi, an intellectual and son of the renowned Sindhi politician, Kazi Faiz Muhammad, called upon the conscience of the Sindhi people. He appealed to all political leaders and social activists to go to Jacobabad and take notice of the grievances of the Hindu community there. Though no eyebrows were raised, his appeal went largely unnoticed.

The centuries-old brotherhood is on the brink of extinction in these parts of Sindh. Near Jacobabad, at the shrine of the Sufi poet Cheezal Shah, Hindus and Muslims sit together. Half of his disciples are Hindus and the other half are Muslims. On the night of the 7th moon, they gather at Cheezal Shah`s shrine and perform the mystic traditions in the same way. There are also Hindu saints which provide refuge for Muslims. Udero Laal, Bhagat Kunware and Paaro Fakeer from the Thar desert, are mentors to people of both faiths.``


Stuka:
I am convinced that the Hindu community in Pakistan will eventually become extinct. No, they wont face any riots or even major pesecution but the human survival instinct, a relatively weak Hindu religion and the accessibility of a neighbouring India will ensure that they will either convert or continue their slow exodus to India, until a rump remains which will stay on and be treasured almost as a museum piece.

Ahmadzai:

No problem. Hope everything is okay at home. I do enjoy reading your posts as long as we agree to disagree on Kashmir :)

Dost-Mittar, Babu and Stuka:

Like I had said earlier, I am a little tied up with family chores. However, I will like to say the following:

1. The situation of Sindi Hindus that you described is no better or worse than Muslims living in the interior of Sindh and in backward regions of Punjab. All of them are being equally mis-treated. Unfortunately, these are the regions where the hold of feudals is strongest. The situation in the NWFP and Pushtoon belt of Balochistan will significantly improve as far as rapes and honor killings are concerned, but will worsen otherwise.

2. The situation of urban Hindus that you have brought to light, if true, is something that an average Muslim Pakistani will not even be aware of. Reason: we have too many issues amongst ourselves. But I promise that I will collect more accurate information about the situation through sources in the media, such as Jang Group of Newspapers and GEO TV and share so that we are able to confirm or disconfirm our beliefs.

3. The word ``matyrdom`` or ``shahadat`` as used by Indians is totally for respect for those who lay down their lives for their motherland (India) and has been borrowed from Muslims. In Islam, and I know that you know, ``shahadat`` has totally religious connotations meaning that the martyred sole or religious place will bear witness in front of Allah of the fact that he/it laid down its life for carrying the message of Allah and his Apostle to the infidels, safeguarding religion and hence is eligible for entering the highest palce in paradise (Jannat-e-Firdous). The credit goes only to the broad-mindedness of Hindus of the yore, because of the ability of Hinduism to absorb the best of the world in terms of sprituality and living one`s life, that the term Shaheed is used prolifically in India. If the real meaning of Shaheed is explained to Hindus of today, they will perhaps discourage the use of the word in India. So unfortunately, we have to live with the reality here.

4. What I remember about destruction of temples in Pakistan was that the mobs acted in retaliation and on their own, mostly in the interior of Sindh. They were not led by any clerics or religious political parties. This happens only when we have such a miserable state of education standards and such a high level of illiteracy here. Fanaticism and extremism comes from illiteracy. However, I will search on my own as to how and who instigated the anti-Hindu actions.

5. The miserable economic situation of Hindus living in Tharparker and Badin districts is attributable to the 5 years of worst drought conditions. Muslim Sindhis have also fared equally poorly, as have the people of many other drought stricken regions of Pakistan.

Dost Mittar /Ahmadzai:

I think you guys are having a very fruitful discussion here.

I will confess to something here. Having been born post partition, I have no problem accepting the reality of Pakistan as it is the only reality I have known. Therefore Ii have no problem acceptiong the nationalism of a Pakistani...as long as he is Muslim.

Somehow, and maybe being the descendant of refugees comes to play here, I cannot accept a Hindu Pakistani as to me it is antithetical. Same goes for Hindu Bangladeshis, though to a lesser extent.

In fact, when Hindus in Pakistan were beaten up after Bbabri, I remember thinking ``serves the bastards right``. I myself have not been able to analyze why I think the way I do. I just know it is a gut feeling. Thats why, on occasion I have brought up mistreatment of Hindus in Pakistan, I know that I am a hypocrite in doing so.

Ahmadzai:
You are right about Indians generally being quite ignorant about the status of Hindus in Pakistan. But even those of us who are somewhat better informed do not have a much different perceptive on this subject.

I think that the Hindus in Pakistan can be divided into those in Sindh or elsewhere. Elsewhere, there are very few of them but still there are some. During the Partition, the so-called `choorhas` were not forced to leave their homes as they were considered indispensable. Many of them became christians (the `high caste` mullahs were not interested in converting them, as opposed to the few upper caste hindus who chose to convert rather than leave) but some of them are still there in Balochistan and South Panjab.

The bulk of them is, of course, in Sindh. They too can be divided in two categories. The well-offs in Karachi live quietly and as inconspicuously as they can. They do not make any austentatious celebrations of their festivals such as Diwali and Holi (although I have heard that recently it has become fashionable among some Muslims in Karachi to play holi). Many of them have relatives in India and are leaving Pakistan if and when they can do so through marriage or other means, unless they are economically too tied up there. The overwhelming majority, though, consists of landless Haris in Tarparkar and Thar who are at the mercy of their Vaderas who rape their women and otherwise treat them like animals. The onlly ones who speak up for them are the brave Muslim human rights activitsts.

The Hindus` situation is so pathetic that they are prepared to suffer any humiliation without even as much as a protest or a screech, unlike the christians who still have the strength to protest and make noises for their rights. I was in India at the time of the Babri Masjid`s demolition. According to the Pakistan Radio at that time, hundreds of temples were destroyed by angry muslim mobs as a retaliation against the martyrdom of the Babri masjid. (notice the difference distinction between ``destroyed`` temples and ``martyred`` mosque. Unlike Indian Muslims who went on a rampage all over India (for good reason!) and whose protests are echoing all over India and abroad even after ten years, the Hindus of Pakistan did not do even a ``choon``, although their cause was picked up by Benazir Bhutto and her PPP.

Finally, I am copying below a poem posted by banjaara recently on unplugged by his Pakistani Hindu friend . Read it to understand the status of the proud bearers of the civilization which one day will be willy nilly accepted by Pakistanis as their own:

M`ray tun pe raqs karti m`ri zardiyoN ko dekho
m`ri jaan bujh rahi hai m`ri hichkiyoN ko dekho

maiN lahu lahu huN kitna, maiN bikhar chuka huN kitna
m`ray aaeenay ke undar m`ri kirchiyoN ko dekho

m`ri gumrahi ki aakhir ye kahaniyaN kahaN tuk
kissi aik zaviay se m`ri naikiyoN ko dekho

m`ray aanay wali rut ka jo mizaj paRhna chaho
tau bulundioN se aagay m`ri pastioN ko dekho

hai tabaahiyoN ki zadd per m`ra khandan saara
m`ri mayeN behneN dekho m`ri baitiyoN ko dekho

m`ra jism jal chuka hai m`ri jaaN pighal chuki hai
m`ri haddiyoN ko dekho, m`ri [aslioN ko dekho

Babu at 185:

I will continue this discussion with you. However, I am getting a bit tied up with family chores today. Let us take this up tomorrow.

Seems like you post from India. I wish you well.

:-)