Another Attempt on Musharraf

stuka #440
Your argument is like saying that Afghans who abuse Pakistanis for their support of Hekmatyar and Taliban are being unjustifiably self-righteous considering what they did to themselves. Or that given the riots in Gujarat, we will be unjustifiably self-righteous if we speak against Pakistani terrorism in India.

Your argument is an invitation for India to foment terrorism in Pakistan given the violent incidents there.

Bongdongs:

Write something as in an article? I don`t think I have the expertise. I can do google searches and see if I can find material on the web if you like.

#440, Stuka,
``the worst ecesses commited by India were not in foreign locales but in its own backyard in the Northeast in the 1960s``

Can you write up something on this telling us more.

Fuzair:

``its really fascinating to see how morally worked up and indignant the Indians can get about being done to them what they used to do to others. ``

True. Even more fascinating considering the fact that we never had ham handed brainwashing in the genre of ``Pakistan Studies``. I think you hit the nail more on the head then you probably realize. The worst ecesses commited by India were not in foreign locales but in its own backyard in the Northeast in the 1960s. This was also the peak of India`s moral hectoring to the rest of the world.

Unlike in Pakistan, where Pakistanis know about the insurgency and defend it as righteous, most Iindians do not even KNOW about their country`s role in realpolitik. They genuinely believe India to be ``nice`` . Seems like the Indian state did a more subtle but more effective job of manufacturing consensus compared to Pakistan.

Fuzair:

A pleasure to read post 408. The anecdote is believable and unfortunately that Iindian obsession for protocol still exists. It is a two way sword however. Whereas Indian moral lectures have irritated the Americans and have kept potential benefits away from us, we also so manage to aggravate the Americans that they keep busy arguing and then disengaging so they hardly ever come around to putting pressure on the things we really care about. CTBT is a prime example.

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Ref Sudalaikkannu #436

[India paid a price for spawing a fascist organization like the LTTE.]

Let us see: an organization such as LTTE that said enough is enough to real discrimination and demands a separate country is a fascist organization; but an organization such as the DMK that had as its slogan ``The North grows and the South decays`` and demanded secession from India is expressing the wishes of the people.

By the way, since you haven`t told us if you think Allah is a false god or not, one must assume that you believe Allah to be a true god. Shall I ask the local mullah to get his rusty knife ready so that you can get circumcised?

#431
Guruji,
India paid a price for spawing a fascist organization like the LTTE. The crucial difference between the approaches of the two countries vis-a-vis the monsters they created is that once India signed a treaty with the affected party, it made best effort to abide by it. As far as pakistan is concerned, the road to peace is the graveyard of Simla Accord and Lahore Declaration and countless promises to right this and straighten that... India has certainly been more trustworthy.

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From approximately less than 1000 madrassas in the 70s, Pakistan is reported to have about 7000 madrassas now. In 1988, just before the Soviets left Afghanistan, there were approximately 3000 madrassas.

Musharraf despite his stated intention has not gotten these madrassas to even register themselves, much less reform their syllabus. And we are talking of not a civilian govt, but one run by head of the Pakistani Army.

Can you imagine an equivalent situation where a normal private school is set up by private parties who refuse to register the school with the government?

No, you can`t. So it is clear that schools and madrassas donot rise up like mushrooms out of the blue, their proliferation is a sign of 1. inflow of funds 2. public acceptance 3. the local, state and national governments` willingness to accept their influence

That armed jihad also happens to be on the agenda of those who fund such madrassas is no coincidence.

Now to say that these 7000 madrassas (up from 3000 after the Afghan war) and `death to infidels` being preached from mosque pulpits is part of `plausibly deniable state policy and everyone does it`, is stretching it too far.

Turning jihad into a celebrated public value in schools and mosques as well as a profitable private sector enterprise out of state`s reach, hardly signals an intent for jihad to be a plausibly deniable policy.

Fuzair, Just when I thought you were one of those rare folks who knew what was going on across the border you disappoint me. Tamil politicians have occupied predominant place in the central cabinet starting from before Indira`s time. R. Venkatraman was the President of India recently and he did have clout with the government. As I mentioned in my other post, which you seem to have skipped, Indira needed the support of South Indian and particularly Tamil politicians. Therefore she was under compulsion to listen to the tamil politicians. Secondly, you mentioned hegemony. India has given up claims to a small island (Kachativu), not something a hegemon would do. Thirdly, what the Tamil politicians were demanding was not that the Tamils rule Srilanka but that the Tamils achieve autonomy within or separation from Srilanka. The separatist movement was bolstered by coordinated vicious attack launched on the tamils by sinhalese nationalists following the murder of 3 (I think) sinhalese soldiers. There was (and continues to be) a simmering resentment that the Srilankan government wants those tamils who went there as indentured laborers generations ago, deported back to Tamil Nadu. Sinhalese nationalism has a strong racist component that the Tamil politicians were reacting to both in India and Srilanka. You also mentioned that RAW acted to sabotage the IPKF which is pure speculation and unsupported. As far as I know RAW does not have the kind of power and independence that the ISI enjoys.

Fuzair #430,

Okay for now :)

My moral indignation may show up in the future and we can continue it then. Good to have interacted with you.

Where are they now,

The pathetic pakistanis are always fond of talking about LTTE and the mukti bahini. The question is where are they now.
In the case of pakistan jihad enveloped the entire life of the nation, men from all over the world came to pakisan for jihad, from australia to the US, the entire nation became a killing field, look at karachi.
Pakistans support for jihad is very different from the indian support for LTTE and others, it was a military strategic decision, the ordinary people were not involved, no one talks about srilanka as core issue like paks talk about kashmir.
Kashmir jihad is essential for pak existence, it is a sink into which the jihadic fodder will continue to be dumped. Kashmir is only a symptom of the founding principle of pakistan, an islamic republic and pakistan has identified itself as the jihadic version which attarcts muslims from all over the world. Kashmir jihad is not a political decision, the ordinary mums and dadas are su[porting it, go to the lasker meetings attended by a million pakistanis. look for a similar event in support of LTTE.
Today a promijnant politician is in prison for making a statemnt that tamils should talk to LTTE. Today LTTE is a terrorist organisation in india. Think of asghar he is a hero in pakistan. ALL this talk of peace is pure crap as long as dawood ibrahim is a pak hero.

Fuzair,

Which country has a lily white record when it comes to protecting their (perceived) interests? Isnt it all finally a matter of degree?

I have been reading extracts from a pretty good book by a Sri Lankan - Tamil idealogue (PLOTE) about the Sri Lankan issue:
http://www.sangam.org/ANALYSIS/AsiaTimes.htm

India doesnt come off too badly, whatever the reasons for the initial involvement, one can see the repeated attempts Rajiv Gandhi made to reach a political settlement. And why is the empathy that Indian Tamils felt for Sri-Lankan tamils any less than that Pakistani`s feel for Kasmiri`s?

Frankly, I dont see Pakistan striving for any kind of political settlement (for the past 15 years) rather its just a quest to ``bleed`` Indian troops in Kashmir. I`ll change my view the day I see pakistani soldiers dying while they try to close (kashmir-focussed) terrorist camps in AJK and NA.

By ``India striking back`` I ment sponsoring Baloch-Sindhi-Muhajir-Pakhtoon or some similar seperatist movement in Pakistan. Sure ``striking training camps`` is probably not possible today because Indian`s do not want a military escalation which will rock its economy. But, I am sure a lot more could be done with a higher level of deniability, specially now that Afghan intelligence is on our side again. With the number of Afghan refugees in Pakistan they probably now have ``assets`` all over Pakistan.

About the `98 tests, I dont agree with your observations. If there was a war to prempt Pakistan going nuclear it was probably ``brasstacks``, by `98 that game was over. There were more complex technical and geo-political reasons for `98 like:
-China providing pakistan with proven warhead design which left India at a disadvantage (note, the number of western and Pakistani observors claiming the ``superiority`` of the Pakistani deterrent)
-The extension of NPT and the CTBT
(Perkovich`s book is a good read on this issue)

Fuzair,

Anyway in real-politic terms the mistake Pakistan has made is to provide sanctuary and training for terrorist all over the world. Frankly the west would care less about Indian`s dying in Mumbai or Kolkata, but your boys are now experts in Boeing 777 kamikaze techniques.

Mahesh:

No, thats not my point at all. India has every right to `demand` anything it wants to from Pakistan. If it has the military power, it can even enforce these demands. My point was simply that the Indian protestations of horror and indignation are a little too much for anyone who knows anything about history to be able to swallow. Knowing what I do about Indian policy in E. Pakistan and Sri Lanka (we`ll ignore the current situation in Bhutan and the pathetic Sikkim example), its really fascinating to see how morally worked up and indignant the Indians can get about being done to them what they used to do to others.

Terrorism is terrorism and terrorists (whether they call themselves ``freedom fighters`` or not) are simply murderers who should be executed out of hand. However, if once you have sponsored terrorists (or ``freedom fighters``) yourself, you do lose the right to claim the moral high ground.

But for India, like the US, whats sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander. WE can do it to YOU, but YOU can`t do it to US. When we do it you, thats legitimate. When you do it to us, thats terrorism. As far as I am concerned, the only good LeT/HM type is a dead one but my view is quite rare among Pakistanis. However, just because I feel this way doesn`t quite make me an Indian lackey since I like nothing better than sneering at Indian protestations of moral outrage.

Regards.