The French Engineering Education System

Re: # 3
In case of French tradition of having strong Mathematics, I agree with Irfan.
Not only that they have the great mathematicians in the Past like Descartes, Fermat, Poisson, Pascal, Lagrange and Poincaré, but in the last 15 years, France has the most of the Fields Medal (Mathematics equivalent of Nobel Prize).
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal

Aman,

Yes I looked it up. I think maybe I have an explanation for this. Like you know, the best here go for diplome d`ingenieur, and a few really motivated ones go into the research side. So I guess engineering research suffers from a lack of quantity/quality. Something to think about.

Irfan.

PS: Any plans to visit Paris?

Irfan,

Oddly enough, the French engineering community`s R&D output seems under-represented in the Thomson ISI data analysed by David King in a report published in Nature.

check out this plot:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n6997/fig_tab/430311a_F3.html

note though that in Maths, the frogs *are* ahead despite all their problems with English.

the full article is here:
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/Dynapage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v430/n6997/full/430311a_fs.html

and this hurts:

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The political implications of this last comparison are difficult to exaggerate. South Africa, at 29th place in my rank ordering, is the only African country on the list. The Islamic countries are only represented by Iran at 30th, despite the high GDP of many of them and the prominence of some individuals, such as Nobel prizewinners Abdus Salam (physics, 1979) and Ahmed Zewail (chemistry, 1999)7.

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Aman

ROmair is upto his usual tricks and a bunch of otherwise rational people are being taken along for the ride.

The debate about educational systems is useless without regard to the social, economic and financial systems of the neighborhood. Hiring the best Phds in Finland and making them create the latest ringtones is not a good use of a nation`s best minds. Similarly expecting Nobel laureates in Mathematics out of Latin America would be expecting siestas and indisciminate sex not to have any debilitating economic effects.

America leads the rest of the world because it allows the foolhardy and the mad geniuses to indulge freely in their garages to create the next Amazon or Microsoft. It allows them to get hold of capital and like minded crazy individuals to dream the impossible. In other countries that dream`s first step involves getting to the US. All this talk of creating streamlined educational systems by the likes of ROmair is born out of mediocre institutions that allow his likes to get advanced degrees without getting any education in the true sense of the word.

Instead of throwing money into bottomless pits like Basic Research, Phds, Ata ur Rehman etc., creating a general atmosphere that nurtures creativity and risk-taking is what countries like Pakistan require. I bet if you shut down all the IITs in India, it will still produce the same high quality of employees, entrepreneurs and engineers. These people now increasingly stay in India because they can still dream big staying in India. Countries like Pakistan need to work on basic things like law and order, property rights and indiscrimination against women and the dreamers will take them where they need to go.

later
-sac

irfanhamid #15: Ref: http://www.aneki.com/nobel.html
http://members.shaw.ca/delajara/Nobels.html

Going by this discussion, and the size and innovation capabilities of French tech companies, one would have to say that French education is quite good in various Engineering fields (like aerospace). But in pure sciences, and computer sciences etc., USA is still way ahead.

Having said that, in Europe, it would seem like UK is the leading country in the tech area. Because, it seems to cover all the areas. It has won proportionately equivalent number of Nobel prizes in sciences, as the USA (both countries are way ahead of the rest of the world). It`s engineering and tech (and oil) companies are as big (infact bigger) than those in France. And, of course, like France, it is a center for arts and literature.

I suppose one would have to actually go through the educational system of these countries to get a good idea. I am only familiar with the Pakistani system, and the USA system. And now have quite a bit of knowledge of the standards of the Canadian system, based on the students in the market.

Overall, I remember reading a study somewhere (from Harvard?), that pointed out that research indicates that the primary factor in success of technical individuals in the industry (different from academic research) is the ability of the person, him/herself. Not the univeristy he/she indicated. The university only makes a major difference in other not-tech fields like law, etc.

I have found this to be true. This, of course, does not mean one should not try to put up the best universities.

My suggestion would be that Pakistan has tried to copy the British system. This system seems to be working and competing well enough, in the international arena, for Brits. Perhaps even better than the French system. We should first try to sort out the British system, and get it going. Once that is going well, then try to improve it by introducing other systems like the French, in certain areas. If we cannot even get the British system going, we will not be able to get the French system going either........

Nobel Prizes are awarded for a very narrow range of fields and subfields. Even an ancient and revered science like astronomy has barely won more than half a dozen in a hundred years. Astrophysics even less. The Nobel commitee has its prejudices. Experimental Solid State Physics is, for some reason, given much higher priority over all other subfields. This also happens to be a field where the US is exceptionally strong. Stephen Hawking maybe a bit of a shameless self-promoter, but no one doubts his absolute brilliance. And he will NEVER win a Nobel Prize simply because of the field he works in.

More to the point, the large majority of `American` Nobel Prize winners in recent years have been non-Americans. And this is something that has really worried leading American scientists and educationalists because it exposes the deficiency of the American education system.

Going back to France, French researchers are among the most creative in many fields of technology. Telecommunications and signal processing in particular are fields where the French have pioneered and developed the most exciting and important subfields. In aeronautics, AirBus doesn`t just `compete` with Boeing (as Romair claims). It has OVERTAKEN Boeing and Boeing`s future now looks bleak (There was talk recently of breaking it up). If it weren`t for American government bullying no one now would buy Boeing`s inferior technology.


Pakistanis have to give up this Maee-Baap attitude to whoever has the biggest danda in the world at the time. Our forefathers had this embarrasing attitude to the British. And now that Mother England has passed on the danda to Daughter America, many of us have the same attitutde to the US. The Pakistan government for once has got it right. Spreading Pak students to ALL the advanced nations so we can learn as much as possible from ALL of them.

France is a social welfare state unlike US. Generally, in social welfare states, there are a lot of taxes and government allows a little for extra-ordinary growth and competition on the terms that government is responsible for maintaing the standard of living of its citizens. In the end, there remains very little diference between the net income of rich and poor. Although such system guarantees good amount of facilities every ordinary citizen but for extra-ordinary, it doesn`t seem to be much attractive.
Now when an extra-ordinary french scientist realizes that his counterparts in US are earning two times more than him in US, he naturally opts to go there. Same is true for the talented people of other countries (even if they are from rich but non-capitalist countries like France).

My point is, when a scientist made in France, Germany, Russia, China and India goes to US and after going their participates in research activities there, it simply means that US has bought a ``ready-made scientist`` to fulfill its research ambitions although the research base of that person was developed in the other parts of the world.
Now pick up any ``good`` university of US (Ranked in top 20), see its faculty members, you will find many Vijay Kumars, Chang Lius, Vladimirs in the list. remember, all of them were trained in other parts of the world than US. Pick Nobel leaureates of US, most of them are from froreign origin. This all szimple means that US universities are jnot preparing this talent. US in only buying this ``ready-made`` talent with attractive offers.

Romair,
Although I don`t want to bring it to this, but here goes. First off, the Nobel prize is given for achievement in the sciences (physics, chemistry, medicine), literature, peace and economics. Engineering does not figure into this anywhere. Furthermore, like I wrote in the article, the best students go to engineering schools, hence study engineering. There are only a couple of generaliste engineering schools who have a specialization in physics or chemistry. Compare this with the amount of physics/chem students in the US and then make an adjustment when calculating (the question has never been one of quantity, but of quality). Most of the physics students here in France are studying in universities (which as I said are non-competitive). Take the average percentile GRE score of US physics students with percentile positions of the French physics students and you will probably find that that the US students are better, which is understandable since the cream of the crop here goes to study engineering, plus they don`t pass through the intensive preparation formation which are only available to grandes ecoles applicants.

As far as math is concerned that is another story, like I said in the article the French are renowned mathematicians. The Fields medal is like the Nobel prize of mathematics. Awarded every four years, the numbers are as follows between 1936 (when it was started) and 1994:

America: 10
France: 6
UK: 4
Others: 18
*

Now take into account that France`s population is about 20% that of the US and about the same as the UK. I rest my case.

Regards,
Irfan.

* taken from http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Societies/FieldsMedal.html

PS: Mind giving a reference to the Nobel prize stats?

Ref Romair #10

[Thanks for the information. Is it the same in UK? Or is the UK Ph.D is CS based on 2 yrs B.SC + 2 yr M.Sc. + 3 year Ph.D.]

TWO-year BSc in the UK? I thought the BSc/BA took three years. Is this something special for Pakistani cabdrivers?

[I don`t have information of Europe vs. USA in areas outside Aviation and CS. In aviation, it competes well enough. Airbus and Boeing are competitors, and pretty much dominate the world market. In military aviation, there are really only four countries that indigenously make aircraft. These are USA, Russia, France and UK. Swedes make some too. The rest copy aircraft (like China), or are barely able to just get one or two to fly.]

The RCMP will soon be showing up at your doorsteps to deport you.

Bombardier (of Canada, you know, your adopted homeland) makes regional jets that sell very well in the under-100 passenger category. In fact, if you fly American Eagle, United Express/Atlantic Coast/Independence Air or any such commuter airline, you are likely to be in a CRJ or an Embraer from Brazil. Some long routes such as Washington/Dulles to Jacksonville, FL are served by the CRJ.

#9

The CSNE system is the one ROmair mentions in #12, compulsory military service was waived for graduates who worked abroad for a year. The French goverment even pays for their stipends. The CSNE sysem is a good source of quality (and subsidised!!) interns at our company. The system seems to have survived even now when compulsory military service is not required in France.

Another question:

From 1951 - 2000, the number of Nobel prizes, in sciences, won by France, is disproportionately low, vis-a-vis its population, in comparison to the USA and UK. The USA has won 55%, which is much higher than its ratio of population. UK with a population similar to France`s, has won 40. While France has only won 9.

The country with the worst performace, in this category, amongst advanced countries, ranked via population, is Japan; which has won only 5, even though it has a population which is 45% of the USA, and twice that of France and UK.

If you take the Nobel prizes, from 1900 onwards, in all categories, than the ratio is different. Amongst the larger countries, Britain (at position 6th) has the best ratio. USA is at 11 and France at 12th. Primarily because, before WWII, Europe did dominate in sciences.

Interestingly, in population ratios, Pakistan is 39th, and India is 40th. Pakistan has won 1. And India has won 3. Amongst Muslim countries, Egypt is highest, at 35th, with 2.

Interestingly, the area where France dominates and leads the world in Nobel prizes is Literature. It has won 12 overall. While the USA has won 11.

So gonig by this, we should be copying USA and UK for science. And France for literature and arts....... :-)

virtue83: I do not know of any CS dept under Liberal Arts either. However, many US universities, have a combined dept. of Liberal Arts and Sciences (LAS), and Comp. Sci. and Math fall under the Science part of that. So I guess a more appropriate area would be Dept. of Sciences (if it exists independently).

Another thing one of the young French software engineers I was working with told me. He had to do compulsory military service of two years, or something. However, he was able to get it defered by working for an IT company, overseas, somehow or the other!! This was about six to seven years ago.

Interestingly, Canada seems to be doing well in the networking area. It has (had) two giants in Nortel and JDS. However, it software, Canada hasn`t been able to do much either. I think the biggest company is Cognos, and there really isn`t a no. 2, other than Correll.

Forbes picked eight companies, it felt that had the most stable and brightest future. Six were American and two were Indian.For some reason, the USA completely dominates the rest of the world in software product companies......

Romair: I have not heard of CS dept. falling under Liberal Arts, atleast at any Canadian University. Usually it falls under Faculty of Science or in the case of my university it is under Faculty of Math. It makes sense as most of the Computer Science concepts are based on principles of math. Most of the mathies (taking CS) end up taking quite a few EE courses to gain more in-depth knowledge of the hardware side.

Good article, it seems like French engineering schools are pretty competitive.

Canadian System:
In Canada universities admission (there is no such thing as engineering schools) is totally based on your top 6 grade 12 marks. For engineering they look at your high school marks for Calculus, Algebra, Finite, Physics, Chemistry and an elective. There is no centralized testing system so marks depend largely on which high school you attend.

Quite a few of the Canadian universities have implemented the co-op system. So an undergraduate engineering degree takes 5 years to complete. It includes 6 workterms ( 4 month each). So by the time a student graduates, he/she will have 2 years of professional engineering experience.

I think this is somewhat similar to the co-op system in France. Last term I was working at an aerospace firm that had hired 2 french interns. But the funny part was the French students were not being paid (other than housing and food expenses) whereas Canadian co-op students were paid weekly wages. I am not aware of their technical expertise but they sure kicked our ass as far as skiing (and snowboarding) was concerned!

Charlie/Irfan: Thanks for the information. Is it the same in UK? Or is the UK Ph.D is CS based on 2 yrs B.SC + 2 yr M.Sc. + 3 year Ph.D.

I don`t have information of Europe vs. USA in areas outside Aviation and CS. In aviation, it competes well enough. Airbus and Boeing are competitors, and pretty much dominate the world market. In military aviation, there are really only four countries that indigenously make aircraft. These are USA, Russia, France and UK. Swedes make some too. The rest copy aircraft (like China), or are barely able to just get one or two to fly.

In terms of quality, I would assume the Airbuses and Mirages are in the same technical category as the Boeings and the F-18s.

In software engg., there really isn`t much competition for the USA. What to talk of Europe, you could put the whole world on one side and the USA on the other, and still USA would be way ahead, when it comes to products. 16 of the top 20 companies in software and services, in revenues, are American. Only two are European. One really has to think hard to come up with a list of software mainstream products that were developed outside the USA, and have been marketed on a large scale. SAP is the only European competitor, and even it was started by individuals from IBM. And don`t be surprised, if SAP gets bought up by some American company, if Oracle is successful with Peoplesoft, someday.

Other than CATIA, France hasn`t produced much, in the software area. And CATIA came from the Aviation industry, and is basically used in Engineering. Linux was started by a guy named Linus, who was born in Finland. However, he moved to the USA. And the main companies pushing the product (Red Hat, etc.) are American.

I don`t know what the reason for this is. Maybe all the top Comp. Sci. in the world descend into the USA. Or maybe it is because French govt. may subsidize software companies, thereby not leaving them competitive when they compete in the big leagues. Even the French company I worked with, despite having a very high tech product, was just about to go under, because it couldn`t sell it.

P.S. CS comes under various depts. in the USA. In many, if not most cases, it is under Liberal Arts and Sciences (LAS) with Math, since that is where it historically fit. In other cases, it has been joined with EE.

Bongdongs,
Internships (stage) are a very important part of the learning process in French education and are not taken lightly. Students are required to undertake a 6 month internship to validate their engineering degrees, during this they are paid quite adequately and they have pre-determined targets to achieve to validate the internship and thus their diploma. I have never heard of the CSNE.

OK, as far as classification of French engineering schools are concerned, names don`t really matter too much. A school can be an ``ecole nationale superieure``, an ``ecole superieure``, an ``ecole normale`` or some other designation (``ecole centrale`` for example, or even an ``institut nationale``). They are all regulated by various ministries and fall under the purview of the CGE (Conference des Grandes Ecoles). The most elite school is the Ecole Polytechnique (also called X), followed closely by Ecole Normale Superieure Paris, Ecole des Mines de Paris and Ecole Centrale de Paris. These are all ``generalist`` schools, meaning their students have courses in everything from economy to thermodynamics to signal processing. They are destined for careers in policy and enterprise management. Another type of schools is Supelec (Ecole Superieure d`Electricite) or ENST (a telecom school). These are specialist schools where students are given concentrated education centered around a specialized discipline, these students are destined to take up careers in R&D.

Universities are a completely separate and parallel higher education track. Universities are not allowed to give engineering degrees, but they do carry out engineering research and education at the doctoral level. The major difference between universities and engineering schools is that universities are not selective in admission whereas engineering schools are very much so.

Romair,
Computer sciences and computer engineering are considered the same discipline in France and it is called informatique. Students are usually given quite rigorous instruction in the 3rd and 4th years in both aspects, and they can choose a specialist track in their 5th year. In the US, computer science and math is never classified in liberal arts, always sciences or engineering (in the case of computer sciences). In the US it would depend on the universitie`s own policy or direction. MIT groups together electrical engineering and CS in one department (EECS) yet GeorgiaTech has a seperate College of Computing. And in the end it does not matter whether your specialization is in hardware or software your PhD ends up taking a minimum of 8 years after high-school.

Yes it`s true that the US has a large number of universities which means they have a large amount of research. But I would argue that that does not mean their research quality far outstrips that of Europe. It would be an injustice to compare the amount of research output of France or Germany alone to the US, so you should compare the whole of Europe to the US (same population roughly).

If you were to compare pure software products then the major horsepower for the open-source movement (in particular the Linux kernel) comes from Europe.

Charlie,
I didn`t want to further confuse the readers with the intricacies of the French system. So I just chose one aspect that I have seen from the inside. But of course the issue is there of the whole spectrum of DEA/DESS/Mastere Specialise and the new LMD system. But the grandes ecoles are not to keen on the name change because they have to give up the prestigious diplome d`ingenieur label.

Regards,
Irfan.

very good article Irfan. keep it up.

People look a bit confused about numbers of years calculated till PhD level. Diplome d`ingenieur (Engineering degree) takes five years after Baccalaureat (equivalent to FSc). In US educational system, it takes four years. DEA (equivalent to masters in research) takes one year more.Alternatively, students of final year engineering can opt for a few courses of DEA to approach a DEA (Masters) at the end of engineering degree. and then Three year after DEA one receives a PhD. So, it takes the same time for a PhD as of American education system.

Also, as a part of some European Union reforms, France is adopting the terms Masters of Research (MSc Engg), and master of Industry (something similar to MEng) gradually. And I guess, they will be in sync with the other europe in their educational system after a few years.