Recent Terror in Egypt

This being August 11 and the 58th anniversary of Mr Jinnah`s finest speech:

Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen!
I cordially thank you, with the utmost sincerity, for the honour you have conferred upon me - the greatest honour that is possible to confer - by electing me as your first President. I also thank those leaders who have spoken in appreciation of my services and their personal references to me. I sincerely hope that with your support and your co-operation we shall make this Constituent Assembly an example to the world. The Constituent Assembly has got two main functions to perform. The first is the very onerous and responsible task of framing the future constitution of Pakistan and the second of functioning as a full and complete sovereign body as the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. We have to do the best we can in adopting a provisional constitution for the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. You know really that not only we ourselves are wondering but, I think, the whole world is wondering at this unprecedented cyclonic revolution which has brought about the clan of creating and establishing two independent sovereign Dominions in this sub-continent. As it is, it has been unprecedented; there is no parallel in the history of the world. This mighty sub-continent with all kinds of inhabitants has been brought under a plan which is titanic, unknown, unparalleled. And what is very important with regards to it is that we have achieved it peacefully and by means of an evolution of the greatest possible character.

Dealing with our first function in this Assembly, I cannot make any well-considered pronouncement at this moment, but I shall say a few things as they occur to me. The first and the foremost thing that I would like to emphasize is this: remember that you are now a sovereign legislative body and you have got all the powers. It, therefore, places on you the gravest responsibility as to how you should take your decisions. The first observation that I would like to make is this: You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State.

The second thing that occurs to me is this: One of the biggest curses from which India is suffering - I do not say that other countries are free from it, but, I think our condition is much worse - is bribery and corruption. That really is a poison. We must put that down with an iron hand and I hope that you will take adequate measures as soon as it is possible for this Assembly to do so.

Black-marketing is another curse. Well, I know that blackmarketeers are frequently caught and punished. Judicial sentences are passed or sometimes fines only are imposed. Now you have to tackle this monster, which today is a colossal crime against society, in our distressed conditions, when we constantly face shortage of food and other essential commodities of life. A citizen who does black-marketing commits, I think, a greater crime than the biggest and most grievous of crimes. These blackmarketeers are really knowing, intelligent and ordinarily responsible people, and when they indulge in black-marketing, I think they ought to be very severely punished, because the entire system of control and regulation of foodstuffs and essential commodities, and cause wholesale starvation and want and even death.

The next thing that strikes me is this: Here again it is a legacy which has been passed on to us. Along with many other things, good and bad, has arrived this great evil, the evil of nepotism and jobbery. I want to make it quite clear that I shall never tolerate any kind of jobbery, nepotism or any any influence directly of indirectly brought to bear upon me. Whenever I will find that such a practice is in vogue or is continuing anywhere, low or high, I shall certainly not countenance it.

I know there are people who do not quite agree with the division of India and the partition of the Punjab and Bengal. Much has been said against it, but now that it has been accepted, it is the duty of everyone of us to loyally abide by it and honourably act according to the agreement which is now final and binding on all. But you must remember, as I have said, that this mighty revolution that has taken place is unprecedented. One can quite understand the feeling that exists between the two communities wherever one community is in majority and the other is in minority. But the question is, whether it was possible or practicable to act otherwise than what has been done, A division had to take place. On both sides, in Hindustan and Pakistan, there are sections of people who may not agree with it, who may not like it, but in my judgement there was no other solution and I am sure future history will record is verdict in favour of it. And what is more, it will be proved by actual experience as we go on that was the only solution of India`s constitutional problem. Any idea of a united India could never have worked and in my judgement it would have led us to terrific disaster. Maybe that view is correct; maybe it is not; that remains to be seen. All the same, in this division it was impossible to avoid the question of minorities being in one Dominion or the other. Now that was unavoidable. There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be on end to the progress you will make.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

Well, gentlemen, I do not wish to take up any more of your time and thank you again for the honour you have done to me. I shall always be guided by the principles of justice and fairplay without any, as is put in the political language, prejudice or ill-will, in other words, partiality or favouritism. My guiding principle will be justice and complete impartiality, and I am sure that with your support and co-operation, I can look forward to Pakistan becoming one of the greatest nations of the world.

I have received a message from the United States of America addressed to me. It reads:

I have the honour to communicate to you, in Your Excellency`s capacity as President of the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, the following message which I have just received from the Secretary of State of the United States:
On the occasion of of the first meeting of the Constituent Assembly for Pakistan, I extend to you and to the members of the Assembly, the best wishes of the Government and the people of the United States for the successful conclusion of the great work you are about to undertake.


http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/constituent_address_11aug1947.html

#203 by dost-mittar

[Romair#197:

”However, I get the feeling that most Indians, are not pushed about Kashmiris deaths at all. They don`t really care if Kashmiris are killed by anyone from Pakistan. They actually support their killings by Indian soldiers. They just want to use the deaths of Kashmiris to score political points against Pakistanis.”

You may be right on this score. Most Indians believe that they have the title to the land of Kashmir; they are also blind to human rights abuses committed by their security forces. I am not one of them. ]

Most Indians know that they SHOULD have the title of the land of their forefathers, but DON’T. We Indians cannot even buy a piece of land in Kashmir, bur Kashmiris have free access to all of India.

All this pretentious talk of human rights abuses is patent garbage. From both of you.

To begin with, it is hard to believe that a Pakistani is talking about this issue, given Pakis’ appalling record in their own provinces.

ANY country under the sun that has had to deal with terrorists hiding in the midst of the general populace, drawing succour and support from MANY of them, has had to deal with it JUST THE WAY India has. Absolutely impeccable surgical operations that do not touch a single strand of hair of the bystanders, but cleanly takes out the terrorists is an impossibility, and CAN NEVER HAPPEN. One option is to do nothing, and let innocent men, women and children be butchered by Romair’s pet terrorists. The other option is to do something, and cause collateral damage.

Also important to note is the following:

Romair’s claim is that Indian soldiers have gone into Kashmir and started killing innocent people, and the terrorists are JUST REACTING TO THAT.

The REALITY, of course, is that Indian soldiers had to suppress terrorist activity, causing some collateral damage.

So all talk by this Romair character on this issue is fake self-righteousness.

He is guilty, along with all the terrorists he supports.

I as someone whose forefathers came from Kashmir, want POK back. It was stolen from us because of the idiocy and incompetence of Jawaharlal Nehru. But we will get it back, when the time is right. Just like one day Tibet will be free.


[“If they were genuinely concerned, one would think they would be all for letting the Kashmiris speak out for their own rights. How can one talk against Kashmiri killings, yet support one`s own govt. and army`s killings of them? It defies logic............and is very opportunistic............”

India made a commitment to the people of Jammu and Kashmir which it has reneged upon. It has spent billions of dollars in subsidies for Kashmiris but has apparently failed to counter the pull of Islam for Muslims who are willing to lose everything to join the land of the pure and are willing to ethnically cleanse themselves of their `napaak` element to achieve that goal.]

That’s nonsense. India has not reneged upon anything. If it has, why don’t you give a list of what it promised, where it promised it, and how they have reneged on it?

Go on. Produce a list. I bet you won’t be able to.


[In return, India has only weakened itself morally and economically. So, it is in India’s interests to respect the desire of Muslim Kashmiris. But I am against a plebiscite as Kashmir seceding India as a result of Muslims voting against India may have negative repercussions for Indian Muslims.]

Self-interest, eh? Otherwise it would be okay, huh?

Who says the Indian Muslim ain’t patriotic?

#202 by hindvi

Normalization of relations creates a lobby that is against percipitious action like intensifying terrorism.

People from all walks of life like small traders,middle class professionals, industrialists will have a stake in normal relations with India if there is enough trade and commerce between the two countries.

This constrains the extreme options of the armed forces.

Romair#197:

Congratulations! You have finally succeeded in turning the discussion into your favourite topic. :-)

“In your value system, is a soldier killing civilians, whose land is occupied against their wishes, a murderer also. Or does he have carte blanche to kill as he pleases, as ordered by his govt.? This is usually where many value systems break down, and take a convenient U-turn......Which is why I have no respect whatsoever for such value systems.....Let`s see if yours breaks down also.........”

Are you talking about a land to which the person has a title or because he wants that title to be transferred from the current title holder of a different religion to someone else of his own? As regards soldier, it is his job to follow orders, as you should know more than anyone else; if he has moral objection to an order given to him, he should leave the army and be prepared to face a court martial as a conscientious objector; this is not just MY value system but of most people.

”India openly supported Muktin Bahani. It trained them, and sent in its soldiers with them, in disguise, across a national border. Not an LOC mind you. Mukti Bahni killed like crazy. Would you consider that an act of terrorism, on part of India?”

Mukti Bahini was a rebellious outfit, just like LTTE or Hizb in Kashmir (not LeT, or JeM) and, if it were killing civilians, it was a terrorist organization. However, Indian soldiers who went behind enemy lines were just following orders, just like the Pakistani soldiers during 1965 or 1998. I may not approve of either the Indian or the Pakistani government actions in those cases but wouldn’t call the soldiers terrorists.

“The number of people killed by the BJP, in a very organized manner in Ayodhya and Gujrat far outnumbers those ever killed by SSP. SSP is a political party. I consider SSP a terrorist party. Do you consider BJP one also? Do you consider SSP one?

BJP did not kill anyone in Ayodhya. BJP workers who participated in mob killings in Gujarat were terrorists but I am not aware if this was a policy of the national party. What Modi did was criminal negligence and worse, and he ought to be tried for his crimes. However, given the Indian legal system where a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty, he has less chance of being found guilty than Bagri did in the Air India case. BJP is a political organization which is open to all Indians regardless of their religious affiliation; the only terrorist organization in India similar to SSP is an obscure organization called SIMI (Students Islamic Movement of India) which aims to achieve political ends by bombing its targets. RSS, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal are some other communal organizations who have an anti-Muslim agenda and whose members have instigated and participated in communal riots and killings. They are as bad or even worse for India as SSP is for Pakistan because they are more influential, even though their members do not carry guns and attack mosques to kill Muslims. Unfortunately, hate speech is not a crime in India and they cannot be prosecuted.

”My concern in Kashmir is for Kashmiris. If anyone is, ``murdering`` them, I consider that person a terrorist. I don`t care if they came from India, Pakistan, Russia, or the moon. What to talk of LeT etc., if Musharraf started killing them, I would consider him a terrorist. If Manmohan did so, I would consider him one, as well. If my own father killed them, I would consider him one, as well”

Your concern is for Muslims and Pakistan, not for Kashmiris as you have not displayed any affinity for Kashmiri language or culture or any other aspect of Kashmiriyat. No person who is interested in the well-being of Kashmir would contemplating handing over its control to a country which is eyeing its water resources (and please do not come back with let the Kashmiris decide what is good for them, Indian Muslims also voted for Pakistan because they thought it was good for them).

”To me, it is not an Indian-Pakistan thing.......I am for genuine self-determination and human rights........”

If you are concerned about human rights, ask your favourite Kashmiris to create the conditions for the return at least of the Pandits whom they ethnically cleansed from their midst, not to speak of those who were similarly pushed out from Kashmir which became ‘Azad’.

”However, I get the feeling that most Indians, are not pushed about Kashmiris deaths at all. They don`t really care if Kashmiris are killed by anyone from Pakistan. They actually support their killings by Indian soldiers. They just want to use the deaths of Kashmiris to score political points against Pakistanis.”

You may be right on this score. Most Indians believe that they have the title to the land of Kashmir; they are also blind to human rights abuses committed by their security forces. I am not one of them.

“If they were genuinely concerned, one would think they would be all for letting the Kashmiris speak out for their own rights. How can one talk against Kashmiri killings, yet support one`s own govt. and army`s killings of them? It defies logic............and is very opportunistic............”

India made a commitment to the people of Jammu and Kashmir which it has reneged upon. It has spent billions of dollars in subsidies for Kashmiris but has apparently failed to counter the pull of Islam for Muslims who are willing to lose everything to join the land of the pure and are willing to ethnically cleanse themselves of their `napaak` element to achieve that goal. In return, India has only weakened itself morally and economically. So, it is in India’s interests to respect the desire of Muslim Kashmiris. But I am against a plebiscite as Kashmir seceding India as a result of Muslims voting against India may have negative repercussions for Indian Muslims.

what i dont understand is what prevents pak from trading with india while maintaining kashmir as a core issue after all it would only strengthen pakistan. if the fear is that india would aquire a strangle hold on the pak economy than pakistan can make the trade conditional on india accepting fossil fuel pipelines originating from Iran and central asia across Pak. On thios issues I find even the most liberal pakistanis like hamidm intransigent.

why would a people willingly inflict injury worth more than billions of dollars a year on themselves is truly puzzling? does it stem from ignorance, i wonder.

#200 by sunlight

Now watch Captain Clueless do the disappearing act! Or he will pretend that this post was never addressed to him.

Re: # 185 by Romair
``Ayaz`s views are actually the views of the common Pakistani. He is against militarism. Recognizes Pakistan`s faults in it. But also recognizes other countries` faults in it, as well. Do keep in mind that he is one of the top two or three most popular politicians in his area of Chakwal in rural Potohar. When he writes articles, he expresses the views of his constituents, since his articles can be held against him, in an election. Which is why I keep saying that his views are just about right, when it comes to Pakistan``
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Since you have a military background, I think these posts clearly demonstrate a big difference between the views of people in the Pakistani Armed Forces and people like Ayaz Amir, who as you point out, is a democrat, and is very careful about what he writes. I am quoting from an article ``Grow up Pakistan`` (though I now wonder if he should have titled it ``Grow up, ISI``) up,http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsJan2004/guestjan2004.htm

``Back in 2001, Pakistan`s permanent establishment (read army/ISI) was still riding the tiger of jihad and thinking that with the American connection restored, Pakistan could have its cake and eat it. It could carry America`s bags in Afghanistan and simultaneously sustain jihad in Kashmir.

As anyone could have told our bonzes, this was a huge fallacy. ``

``The utmost that India can afford to do is give some measure of autonomy to the Valley within the bounds of the Indian Union and the Indian constitution. Nothing more. The LoC is not going to change and if any geo-strategists in Pakistan (may their tribe increase) think otherwise, they need a serious reality check.``

``We do ourselves and our national cause no service when we say Kashmir is the ``core issue.`` The core issue is the mess we`ve made of our affairs, the militarisation, not so much of Pakistani society as of the Pakistani mind that we have managed to achieve. To secure some form of mental liberation, we have to rid ourselves of these shackles. Which won`t happen unless the geo-strategic community, serving and retired, straddling the broad wastes between `Pindi and Islamabad, defines Kashmir as a problem not a cosmic symbol and stops using it {Kashmir} as an excuse for the military`s continued dominance of Pakistan and its people.

We keep weeping about democracy without realising that in the Fortress Pakistan that we have created, with its high walls and fake geo-strategic theories, democracy is a plant that just can`t survive. ``

``By basing our entire foreign policy on hostility towards India, we have made ourselves vulnerable to other pressures. Why do we lick America`s boots every now and then? Because we think that by doing so, and by receiving small change for our efforts, we prime ourselves vis-a-vis India. What kind of brilliance is this?``

#195

1. Genesis of violence in Kashmir:
How many Indian soldiers were in Kashmir before 1989?

The current round of violence in Kashmir started in 1989 and was spearheaded by the JKLF.
Recently in a trip to POK Yasin Malik ``thanked`` Sheikh Rashid for this support to the Kashmir cause.

Dawn on June 14th, 2005 reported:

```Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed set up a camp where around 3,500 Jihadis were trained in guerrilla warfare, revealed Yasin Malik, the Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) chairman``
Sheikh Rashid seemngly unnerved by the gratitude first denied completely, then weakly admitted to running a ``humanitarian`` camp. In a few days the then Pakistani army chief Gen Aslam Beg and then interior minister Brig. Naseerullah Babar confirmed that Sheikh Rashid under ISI supervision, ran a large ``jihadi training camp`` near Islamabad from 1989-92.

Now why is this important?
The role of the Pakistani jihadi ``tanzeems`` such as the HuA, LeT, JeM in Kasmir is well known. These groups were important 91-92 onwards.
Now we see clear evidence of Pakistani jihadi training being imparted from the earliest stages of the current violence.

2. Crimes of Indian soldiers in Kashmir
Kashmir is an undeclared war zone. Pakistan has pumped in enough small arms to equip a few brigades, tonnes of advanced RDX explosive, remote denonators, IED training etc etc. over 6 thousand Pakisanti terrorists and over 10 thousand Pakistani trained local terrorists have been killed in Kashmir.

Troops operate in a tough environement, and in a war zone innocents do get killed, I would split in following categories:

- Soldiers who commit crimes: murder, rape, loot.
I do have confidence that the Indian army manage to prosecute a large % in this category. But the paramilitary forces do not have the same systems and sometimes get away with it. Every time it happens it is a clear black mark against India.

- People picked up for intelligence purposes, torture and dissapearance.
Yes torture and ``dissapearance`` of innocents does occur. The most egregious case I remember is of the 4 people who were picked up and killed after the Chattisinghpura massacare. This is also a pure crime, the officer responsible must be puninished.

- collateral deaths during army operations
Depending on situation, it Army soldiers violate ``Rules of Engagement`` soldiers have been prosecuted. In some situations it is difficult to determine fault in this situation. The most important case I can remember is during the Amarnath Yatra where a lot of the hindu piligrims who died were from security forces bullets.

Pakistani and local Kasmiri terrorists have a deliberate policy of hiding among the local population and using the local population as a sheild. This is to provoke anger due to such deaths.

Most civilian casulties occur in this category.

- Genuine errors
Night operations, operations in crowded areas are genuine error prone, the soldier/officer who makes the mistake has to live with it the rest of his life.

- Soldiers not trained for crowd control
BSF soldiers early on in Kashmir, sometimes opened fire as they were not trained for crowd control.

But the crux is this, Indian armed forces must consistently strive to reduce deaths among all the above categories.

3. Communal violence
India`s inability to prosecute people for communal violence is a serious problem, no doubt about it. The cycle of communal violence cannot stop unless we have credible investigation and prosecution in each case of communal violence.
I personally have no problems with Modi and his ilk being tried in any international court of law (Milosevic-style). no matter how much it ``tarnishes`` Indian`s image.

Romair:

``I am more concerned about the cause.``

And your cause, if you are prepared to be honest, is Islam, not Kashmir. Because it is only an undetermined number of Muslim Kashmiris who are creating all the hungama. Not Dogras. Not Buddhists. Not Sikhs. Not Christians. Not Pandits. You repeatedly call for self-determination because of your smug belief that when forced to choose between the qur`an and kafir, the Muslim majority would vote for the former even if it means cultural and linguisic, if not economic, suicide.

Your concern for Kashmiris or Kashmiriyat is non-existent. Despite claiming to be a Kashmiri, in your thousands of thousand-word interacts, you have never displayed any allegiance to Kashmiri language or culture, as you do to Islam, pakistan, Urdu and even Punjabi. You have no pride in the Kashmiri language or culture. You have lost it all and you do not even show any sense of loss. Instead, you boast that you will gladly vote with both hands for those who robbed you of your culture and your language. All in the name of Islam. You are typical of those Kashmiris who shout ``Pakistan se rishta kya, la illaha l`il allah``.

Your concern for human rights is also selective. While I have consistently deplored human rights violations of Kashmiris by Indian security forces, and still do, you have never shed a tear for your fellow Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir who were ethnically cleansed from their lands. As I have frequently said before, Muzzaffarabad had a majority of Hindus and Sikhs before it was ``liberated`` by the same people whom you are supporting now. They have been completed obliterated; some of them are still alive in your liberated lands but only after they were willing to change their names and read the kalima. Who can support such freedom fighters?

Dost-mittar #196: ``any CIVILIAN who is willing to cross boundaries and kill anyone for whatever purpose is a criminal murderer. Period. I might make a concession about an Iraqi or an Afghan or even a Kashmiri fighting for his own cause; although I have always called LTTE militants terrorists, too.``

Fine. I agree with this.........

1. In your value system, is a soldier killing civilians, whose land is occupied against their wishes, a murderer also. Or does he have carte blanche to kill as he pleases, as ordered by his govt.? This is usually where many value systems break down, and take a convenient U-turn......Which is why I have no respect whatsoever for such value systems.....Let`s see if yours breaks down also..........

2. India openly supported Muktin Bahani. It trained them, and sent in its soldiers with them, in disguise, across a national border. Not an LOC mind you. Mukti Bahni killed like crazy. Would you consider that an act of terrorism, on part of India?

3. The number of people killed by the BJP, in a very organized manner in Ayodhya and Gujrat far outnumbers those ever killed by SSP. SSP is a political party. I consider SSP a terrorist party. Do you consider BJP one also? Do you consider SSP one?

My concern in Kashmir is for Kashmiris. If anyone is, ``murdering`` them, I consider that person a terrorist. I don`t care if they came from India, Pakistan, Russia, or the moon. What to talk of LeT etc., if Musharraf started killing them, I would consider him a terrorist. If Manmohan did so, I would consider him one, as well. If my own father killed them, I would consider him one, as well

To me, it is not an Indian-Pakistan thing.......I am for genuine self-determination and human rights........

However, I get the feeling that most Indians, are not pushed about Kashmiris deaths at all. They don`t really care if Kashmiris are killed by anyone from Pakistan. They actually support their killings by Indian soldiers. They just want to use the deaths of Kashmiris to score political points against Pakistanis.

If they were genuinely concerned, one would think they would be all for letting the Kashmiris speak out for their own rights. How can one talk against Kashmiri killings, yet support one`s own govt. and army`s killings of them? It defies logic............and is very opportunistic............

Romair:

In my value system (and in the value system of almost everyone not bound by what`s written in a certain book, which means over four-fifths of the world population), any CIVILIAN who is willing to cross boundaries and kill anyone for whatever purpose is a criminal murderer. Period. I might make a concession about an Iraqi or an Afghan or even a Kashmiri fighting for his own cause; although I have always called LTTE militants terrorists, too.

Bong-dongs #191: Now here are my questions. The reason I am asking these is because I think there is a hardcore effort to paint Kashmiri freedom struggle as a terorrist movement, on this site, and in India, in general. People try to show a lot of concern for the Kashmiris, while simultaneously suppressing their viewpoint:

1. In the past fifteen years, even according to conservate foreign estimates the Indian military has killed tens of thousands of innocent people in Kashmir. Just four days ago, three school kids were shot dead I can present proof from Amnesty Int`l etc. if you want. Do you think that is State terrorism?

2. Do you that the Kashmiris themselves should be asked to decide whom they consider to be a terrorist? Or do you feel you can speak for them?

3. The two biggest acts of terrorism in South Asia in the past 15 years, were the orchestrated killings of 2000 people at Ayhodhya. And the orchestrated killing of 2000 people at Gujrat. The total is equal to all the people killed in WTC.

Do you think those were acts of terrorism? They were carried out by the BJP high command. Do you think BJP is a terrorist party? Much like SSP, which has not killed even close to that many people.

I will be hoping for some honest straightforward answers from you. In this whole scenario, my loyalties are with the Kashmiris. Which is why I think they should get a chance to speak their mind.............

Bong-dongs #191: I will answer your questions, if you honestly answer mine:

1. ``Now tell me ROmair where does HuA lie on your spectrum:``

If your assertions are correct than it is a terrorist group.

2. ``Another example SSP (Sipahi Sahaba Pakistan) is usually blamed for ssectarian violence in Pakistan. SSP is just another name for LeT (Lashkar-e-Toiba) a Hanafi inspired group which is active not only in Kashmir but all over India. ``

You are incorrect here. SSP and LeT are two completely different groups. Perhaps the words Lashkar confused you. SSP is a political party, which is based in Jhang. It is an anti-Shia political party. It has a militant arm called Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which targets Shias. Which is obviously a terrorist group, and is heavily targeted by the govt......

Dost-mittar #191: `` At the same time, unlike you, he also acknowledges that the same jihadis frequently wear different labels and it is impossible to destroy one type and encourage the other.``

No one is talking of destroying one type and encouraging the other. I don`t know where you got that from. So far the only person unwilling to discourage all types of militarism in Kashmir is you. Not me.

But there is definitely a difference between the case of Al-Qaeda, Taliban and Kashmir. I am surprised you don`t see the difference. I am quite sure Ayaz Amir does. He is openly pro-Kashmir by the way. Al-Qaeda is a terorist organization. Taliban are an extremely conservative fascist govt. in Afghanistan. And Kashmir is a freedom struggle against an occupation. You don`t have to take my word for it. Just ask the people in Afghanistan and in Kashmir. I am willing to accept their views, if you are.

I think there is an effort to paint Kashmir as an equivalent to Al-Qaeda, thereby portraying it as a terrorist cause. This is the same strategy Russia is using in Chechnya. I don`t think it is going to work. I think eventually one would have to ask the Kashmiris what they want.......

There should be no encouragement of any kind of militarism in Kashmir. All of which should be finished. I don`t know how frequently one group wears the hats of the other. I am more concerned about the cause. I am against Taliban and Al-Qaeda causes. However, as you know, I am pro Kashmiri self-determination.

DM saheb
SM Romair is in maidan conducting a qa`waid of new recruits... ;-) do not expect a reply soon...

Romair#185:

I look forward to your response to bongdongs` questions.

Both Irfan and Ayaz are at least as intelligent as you and I are..both know the difference as well as the LINKS between the various jihadist organization. So, while Ayaz talks about the excesses, such as bombings of Waziristan, by Musharraf, he is referring to the activities wrt Al Qaeda. At the same time, unlike you, he also acknowledges that the same jihadis frequently wear different labels and it is impossible to destroy one type and encourage the other.

Both of them are also aware that the majority of Pakistanis support certain types of jihadis, but unlike the majority, they are also able to discern the damage that support of these jihadis have done to the Pakistani society. Whether Indians like or dislike cross-border murderers carrying qur`an in their arms is a separate issue, you and I are here discussing the effect of such mujahideen on Pakistan.