Non-Reformist but Non-Cleric

Sattar

The issue of finality is critical in one more sense, as you well recognize. How it is decided fundamentally alters (or should alter, if the belief is genuine) the way people relate to religion, prophets, and God.

With such high stakes, it will not be easy to change people`s opinions.

kaalchakra (#133):

Finality of prophethood is a new notion … which has gained momentum only in the last one or two centuries. Some of the most renowned scholars from earlier Islamic history believed otherwise. In post #131 I highlighted some aspects of this on-going debate.

Incidentally, decline of Muslims all across the globe too has been accelerated in the past century or so. This is not a coincidence, and is an indication of general deterioration that has found its way among Muslims and their beliefs all across the globe.

Ironically, owing to sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Muslims all across the globe await appearance of a prophet! However, they believe that this prophet (Jesus Christ) is one from two thousand years ago, who was bodily lifted to skies, where he still resides, and will eventually descend down to earth. Ahamdis differ in that they believe that Jesus died like any other human, and the prophet whose appearance is foretold will be a normal human being, just like all other prophets, just like you and me.

Belief in this two-thousand year old prophet now is also a corner stone of mainstream Islam, which adequately highlights one of its numerous shortcomings.

However, the main issue is that of letting Ahamdi-Muslims practice Islam as it makes sense to them, without persecuting them. And this is where mullahs have failed the litmus test of dignity and civility. This again is a sign of rampant corruption that has seeped into leadership of mainstream Muslims.

From what I understand of Islam, the finality of Muhammad`s Prophethood is one of the few foundational stones of Islam.

Take this one stone away, and the whole thing falls to the ground. Which may be a good thing or bad, depending upon what kind of g/God we personally like to respect and believe in.

... on the second thought, it should be ... but that of allowing others to accept continuation ... in the first sentence.

Romair (#119):

Pardon me for the longish, boring reply.

The issue is not that of accepting Mirza Sahib … but that of accepting continuation of prophethood within Islamic framework. And an earnest discussion is called for in order to settle the issue, and this is where things break down.

I have debated this on mullah’s turf … starting with the “kahttam-un-nabiyeen” (seal of prophets) issue. As I listed references where khatam is used to show a person’s high status, even tahmed, despite merely insisting for a long time that seal can only mean last, conceded that “sattar has a point”. Nevertheless, he went on to declare Ahmadis as non-Muslims for following humans … a claim that I failed to comprehend, as all prophets of god are humans indeed.

Urstruly cited ahadith in his defense. However, as I showed, the hadith he quoted, when fully viewed, supported my viewpoint. He refused to further the discussion. Along the way he claimed unanimity among all scholars, throughout Islamic history, on end of prophethood. This too was shown to be incorrect, as I cited references from Shah Waliullah and others who had accepted continuation of prophethood. Urstruly dropped the issue altogether, and now merely refers to the verdict of his ullema on the issue.

In #113 I showed weakness of his position … and he dropped the issue. He then argued on basis of “Muslims getting offended” by Ahmadis. To this I responded in #116 … and again no response from our budding mullah.

This discussion has broken down owing to lack of forthrightness and honesty. No strategy is going to work if people stop responding when losing an argument.

As for Mirza Sahib getting accepted, here are some thoughts. This is not a matter of up-or-down vote. Quran attests that no prophet of Allah could have survived such a vote! Rather, Quran seems to suggest that people from a prophet’s homeland are the last ones to accept him. There is a good reason for this:

Allah raises prophets as people go astray. This implies that prophets appear among some of the most corrupt people around. Owing to this corruption, moral decay, lack of honesty and truthfulness, these very people are the last ones to accept this prophet. In my debates with Urstruly and Naqswhbandi, I have noticed that the have been fed wrong information about Mirza Sahib ... and Ahmadi views in general. When taken to the task, they have consistently failed to back up their assertions and eventually fail to intelligently sustain a discussion. Eventually truth will come out and people will finally see the real face of Islam and Ahmadis.

In my view Islam without Ahmadis is now a dead ideology. It worked for a while but can no longer offer a framework for progress of mankind. It has steadily, irreversibly degenerated into a brutal, false ideology. Ironically, such is the end result of each ideology and movement … a steady slide into chaos and morass. As we have witnessed, Islam, if left stagnant, is not above such fate. And this is one of the reasons why I firmly believe in continuation of prophethood, a view fully endorsed by Quran.

Report: Pakistan better than many western countries....

Instead of commemorating war lets celebrate this..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1214261,prtpage-1.cms

Pakistan gives women a better deal than India
CHIRDEEP BAGGA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, AUGUST 30, 2005 12:33:05 PM ]

Citibank NRI Offer

It’s a case of yet another ranking where India languishes at the bottom. Even as MPs debate the fine print of the women’s reservation bill, here are some numbers that should make them sit up and take notice. According to data from the Inter-Parliamentary Union, India ranks 134th among 183 countries in terms of the percentage of women legislators (8.3%) in the national parliament (Lok Sabha).

In comparison, the parliament of Pakistan includes 21.3% women, placing it at a highly respectable rank of 40, higher than many western countries. The ranking is helped in no small measure by a law in 2002, under which 60 of the 342 seats in the national assembly (17%) are to be allocated to women.

While no country has more women than men in its national parliament, Rwanda heads the list with an impressive 48.8% of its parliamentarians being women. Again, it is committed to sending at least 30% women to parliament. Not surprisingly, Nordic countries dominate the top positions, with 39.9% of their parliament seats being occupied by women.

Sweden (45.3%), Norway (38.2%), Finland (37.5%) and Denmark (36.9%) follow Rwanda, while Iceland too is not far behind in the 18th position. Netherlands, Cuba, Spain, Costa Rica and Mozambique complete the top ten. As of June 30, 2005, 18 countries had...


...a representation of greater than 30% for women, whereas 67 countries, including India, had a representation of less than 10%.

The global average for women parliamentarians is 15.8%, with the Americas having a representation of 18.8%, way behind the same figure for Nordic countries. Europe’s parliaments (excluding Nordic countries) have 16.9% women with sub-Saharan Africa matching the global average of 15.8% and Asia (15.2%) being next in line.

Arab countries, in some of which women cannot stand for elections, have the lowest representation of 8.8%. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain are among the 10 countries with no women parliamentarian.

Pakistan is the undisputed leader amongst its South Asian counterparts. But India does much better than Nepal (5.9%) or Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, both having a sub-5% representation of women. While culture can be an explanation for some of these figures, it cannot explain why countries like the United States (15.2%), Britain (19.7%), France (12.2%) which rank high on gender equality index are comparatively low in terms of political representation.

Again, Russia and Japan do quite badly, ranked 118th and 139th respectively, while...


... China does reasonably well, sneaking into the top 50 with a 20.2% representation. Iraq is the numero uno Islamic country with its parliament comprising 31.5% women members.

Syria (12%) and Indonesia (11.3%) are some other Islamic countries having a decent representation. Most European nations have a system whereby parties voluntarily decide to have a minimum proportion of women candidates contesting elections.

For instance, all three major political parties in Sweden have a minimum 50% representation for women, while in some other countries, this number is 40% or at times 33%. In South Africa, the African National Congress (ANC) placed a third of its women on the national party list to contest elections.

Now, they constitute 32.8% of parliament, up from a...


... meagre 3% before 1994. Costa Rica goes a step further to ensure that women candidates are not fielded for ‘weak’ seats.

Parties should have lists comprising a minimum of 40% for either sex, and women should have 40% of electable seats (interpreted as the number of seats the party received in the previous election). In Japan, quotas exist for women in ministerial positions.

In some of the developing countries, including Brazil and Argentina, quota laws reserving a minimum proportion of seats have been adopted quite successfully.

UNFAIR STATS

India ranks 134th among 183 countries with just 8.3% women members in the Lok Sabha Even Pakistan does better than us with 21.3% women parliamentarians

How others fare

Rwanda 48.8%

Sweden 45.3%

Norway 38.2%

Finland 37.5%

Denmark 36.9%

---

In a different news:

From Calcutta telegraph:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050903/asp/frontpage/story_5191563.asp

Front Page > Story




Hindu top Pak judge
IMTIAZ GUL
Islamabad, Sept. 2: Justice Rana Bhagwandas today became the first Hindu to take over as the acting chief justice of Pakistan’s Supreme Court.

The seniormost judge of the court will act as the chief justice in the absence of the incumbent, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry.

Chaudhry, who became the chief justice last June, is visiting China.

Justice Saiyed Saeed Ashad ministered the oath to Bhagwandas, who holds a masters degree in Islamic studies and law.

Attended by senior judges of Sindh High Court and officials of the provincial government, the oath-taking ceremony was held at the Sindh branch of the Supreme Court in Karachi, the hometown of Bhagwandas, who was born in December 1942 and became lawyer in 1967.

Bhagwandas, who became a judge of Sindh High Court in 1994, was elevated to the Supreme Court in 2000.

According to Pakistan’s constitution, a Supreme Court judge can hold the office until attaining the age of 65.

Bhagwandas, who may retire after two years on completion of his service, is a soft-spoken person, known for his authority on judicial matters.

India has recently had a Muslim chief justice in A.M. Ahmadi.

Bhagwandas rising to occupy the post is significant as the Hindu population in Pakistan is only 1.6 per cent of the total, according to the last published head-count in 1991. In 1948, there were 17 per cent Hindus. Most Hindus live in Sindh.

Since the majority religion is Islam, Hindus and Christians usually do not occupy top civil and military posts.

They play for the national cricket team, though. Danish Kaneria is Pakistan’s top spinner.

Hindus in Pakistan have been poorly organised politically, but have representation in the federal and provincial legislatures, getting elected under minority quotas.

Some Hindu legislators, like Rana Chandar and Kishan Bheel, have served as ministers in former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s government.

harimau #120 {``Do you remember?
1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40``}

Harry, that`s a pretty good test. I found it to be both educational and very humorous. I did want to point out that the whole test started off with some confusion. I did not know how to complete #1. You see I know that Superman did not do it. Jay Leno, being Italian and all, had the capacity to do it, but would never kill RFK, a fellow Catholic, albeit an Irish one. Harry Potter did not exist and Sahan Sahan, who may have done the deed, is a Palestinian Christian and not a Muslim male extrmeist between the ages of 17 and 40.

So, what is the correct answer to #1? I believe I aced the rest of the questions.

Thanks,

Re: # 124

What about Haroon Aswad?

Re: # 126

I don`t know if that can happen... my feeling (by no means a final analysis) is that while Benazir Bhutto is an exceptional politician with immense good fortune... but like her remarkable but flawed father, she is scared of those who a) might be more intelligent than her b) might create a popular constituency which will endanger her own.

Look Amin Fahim is a much less of a figure than Aitzaz, who is a well renowned lawyer and author, and yet Benazir preferred that her own partymen form a forward bloc to strengthen the government instead of allowing Amin Fahim to form the government despite the go-ahead from the agencies...

I seriously doubt that she would allow someone of the stature of Aitzaz Ahsan, who stands in league with the finest produced by South Asia- an independent assessment again by no means final, to become more popular than her.

Re: # 125

ylh,

``It is one of the greatest tragedies of Pakistan that some one like Aitzaz Ahsan will never become its Prime Minister``

...... never?... but why?........... i am seriously interested in knowing why you think that is not possible ........ what if benazir bhutto lets appoints aitizaz as the pm next time the ppp wins ? (which they will) ........sonia gandhi kind of did that ... no?

Re: # 123

It is one of the greatest tragedies of Pakistan that some one like Aitzaz Ahsan will never become its Prime Minister...

Things will change I suppose gradually...

Last word

What I had been telling about the pak society has finally come true. with the london bombers. The haterd of TNT is passed on through the mothers milk in pak households, they could be living any where, even in london, and the pakistanis will turn to bombers.

Most pak papers have been shouting hoarse that the london bombers are home grown, it has something to do with english society, but the relaity is that a pak child brought up in any society will become a bomber.

The society that created taliban, which demolished bhumian budhas, it is the same mind set that created the london bombers.

Re: # 121

ylh,

....... a little off the subject question ...

........ why is it that people like you, who obviously have the passion and the ability to fix things, never rise to the top of the political parties ?............ years ago i was very impressed with aitizaz ahsan who i thought was brilliant - how come he never made it to the top of ppp ? ....... how come wasim sajjad was kicked up to the senate ...........why are we stuck with idiots like the chaudris of gujarat and zardari ?.........is this what the indians call the laloo and sonia syndrome ? .......

........... anyway, keep on fighting the good fight - some one has to while romair pontificates from his headquarters in toronto ................

Re: # 120

harimau,

....tea ?

Re: # 119

My understanding is that a sovereign legislature can if it wants to make a distinction for the purposes of constitution and law-making can indeed raise such an issue and answer it... if such a requirement is there ... and because Pakistan (rather stupidly) has made the discriminatory and absolutely law of having the President of the Republic a Muslim (there is no specific requirement for the PM to be a Muslim within the constitutional provisions but the oath excludes non-Muslims) such an amendment is valid... so untill and unless the state was completely secular as per 11th August 1947... this amendment has perfect validity in a court of a law...

However the constitutional position then is clearly that such an amendment is for administrative purposes both under constitution and law... however No authority can stop Ahmadis from declaring themselves Muslims... this is where Zia-ul-Haq went beyond the scope of the Constitutional amendment... and added those statements etc on passport forms and added a whole new provision to the PPC which made it a crime if an Ahmadi calls himself a Muslim... under the constitution of Pakistan this violates some half dozen of the provisions of the fundamental rights chapter...

Similarly Ahmadis are stopped from carrying out their acts of worship.. and they are stopped from maintaining their places of worship... Also in violation of the existing constitution of the republic.

Yasser, dear boy, stop comparing one Islamic country to another; instead, just take this

HISTORY TEST

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice test. The events are actual Events from history. They actually happened!

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by

a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by

a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:

a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. During the 1980`s a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:

a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:

a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:

a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:

a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:

a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:

a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:

a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill`s women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:

a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:

a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:

a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, ..I really don`t see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President`s security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of profiling.

Let`s send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds and other dunder-headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel doubly ashamed of themselves -- if they have any such sense. As the writer of the award winning story ``Forrest Gump`` so aptly put it, ``Stupid is as stupid does.``

Come on people, for God`s Sake wake up!!! Keep this going. Pass it on to everyone in your address book. Our Country and our troops need our support.

Oh by the way, guess who just bombed London?

That`s right!!!

Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40