Through the Parsi Prism

#75, #72, off topic, but if the issue is not in substance but mere appearance (image in the media), a few dinars would be well-spent on a ``shining`` campaign...kinda of like firing the lobby PR firm in washington, and hiring a new one, with more budget

w.r.t FV#72

I have decided not to respond, but I wonder why the newspaper thinks what that lady says is so very significant that in the course of 4 days she gets to publish two letters on the same subject. Is the media happier with this image of Muslims?

Wow! Head you win, tail I loose!! Some muslim mahila wants to support Fatwa. And media is to be blamed for publishing her views!!

Re: # 66

Dear Rustom:

I understand your disagreement regarding converting others in to Zoroastriansm. When Zoroastrians convert to other religion, we must let them go. I have no comment about those who proselytize their faith.

To answer the decline in numbers, Zoroastrians should be pro-creation. And that is the only strategy worthwhile for our community.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Re: #64 PunnuHalwai

OK, ``White Supremacy,`` in the sense that ALL whites are superior to ALL nonwhites might be a Western invention BUT your ``When a Brahmin doesnot let the shadow of a Shudra fall upon himself and sneers at a `Mallachha` that is racism too`` shows that the racism is not a Western invention (as is alleged by many). Isn`t the original basis of caste/varna supposed to be color? Lighter-skinned are inherently superior? The difference between white and non-white racism seems to be that the whites are more inclusive than the non-whites! ALL whites are superior versus ALL Brahmins are superior!

Regards.

PS: BTW, how many Persians do you know personally? I know quite a few and they are indeed God`s Chosen People (as far as they are concerned, anyway).

I suppose one can now digress a bit. For the past few days I have been disgusted by these fatwas taking place. A report from Muzzafarnagar dated August 17, stated, “In yet another controversial fatwa, Islamic seminary Darul Uloom has ruled that Muslim women should not contest elections and if they have to do they must do it under veil, evoking sharp reactions from political parties. “Muslim women are not allowed to appear before men without a veil and under the Islamic law `pardanashin` women are only allowed to contest elections,” the Darool Uloom of Deoband said in the edict issued yesterday.”

There have been several letters on the subject and I joined in; the following recent correspondence should tell us something…these are from the Asian Age…

Personal law (Aug 21, 2005)

Sir, With reference to Deoband fatwa rejected (August 19), as a Muslim I fail to understand why the media is suddenly bringing the Darul Uloom and Deoband in the spotlight. What is wrong with issuing a fatwa that Muslim women cannot contest elections without wearing veils? Can any practising Muslim deny the fact that hijab has been ordained in the Holy Quran for Muslim women? So in the Islamic spirit the fatwa stands correct. Whether any Muslim woman contesting election or otherwise, prefers to follow the dress code or not, is a personal matter. The words of God cannot be changed, now it is for us mortals to decide how far we want to follow His words.

Tabassum Ekram

Rajab Ali Lane, Kolkata


Say no to fatwas (Aug. 23)

Sir, Does Tabassum Ekram understand the full import of the question, ``What is wrong with issuing a fatwa that Muslim women cannot contest elections without wearing veils`` (Letters, August 21)? I will not ask her to quote chapter and verse from the Holy Quran to justify that the hijab has been ordained, for that would defeat the very purpose of the argument that a religious edict has no place in dealing with matters of the state. This is not a madrasa election. If someone wishes to wear the veil as a personal choice, then no one is preventing her from doing so. But there is no room for fatwas in a secular democracy. Who are these people anyway to sit in judgment? These diktats are detrimental to women. It is the worst form of alienation, which is why we have cases like that of a Gudiya being tossed between husbands and an Imrana expected to put up with her rapist father-in-law. I am glad to belong to the much-maligned group called ``pseudo-secular Muslim pretenders,`` for I can raise my voice against gender disparity and communalism across the board as a citizen of this country.

Farzana Versey

Bandra, Mumbai

MY right (Aug 25)

Sir, Farzana Versey and many like her fail to understand that being a Muslim means submission to the will of Allah (Say no to fatwas, Letters, August 23). As a Muslim, I have every right to quote from the Quran, whether it is the question of a madrasa election or my personal conduct, and even when it comes to standing for the parliamentary election of India. As a practising Muslim I cannot forsake my religious belief under any circumstances. There is no gender disparity in Islam, but to understand that, one needs to study in detail about the religion before forming an opinion. My point is not to start a debate here, just for the sake of it, but that people should do away with the misunderstandings and ignorance that many Muslims and non-Muslims may have about Islam. Neither am I trying to defend the business of fatwa giving, but if something stands correct according to Islamic tenets, then as a Muslim I will support my faith. I would just like to convey to Farzana Versey that she is most welcome to be a pseudo secular Muslim pretender, while I am content being a Muslim.

Tabassum Ekram, Rajab Ali Lane, Kolkata
- - -

I have decided not to respond, but I wonder why the newspaper thinks what that lady says is so very significant that in the course of 4 days she gets to publish two letters on the same subject. Is the media happier with this image of Muslims?

Jang (#70):

[i think you are confusing participation in politics with participation in COMMUNAL politics. you see a minority politician does not have to be communal. parsis have been active politically, especially at municipal level, but not communally]

If you mean communal in the negative sense, then that is not what I intended. Nor am I talking about political participation. I have merely been talking about voicing their thoughts on issues of national interest but as representative voices of the minorities.

Btw, there are several politicians in secular politics from minority communities who continue to be communal in the narrowest sense.

ferzana,
i think you are confusing participation in politics with participation in COMMUNAL politics. you see a minority politician does not have to be communal. parsis have been active politically, especially at municipal level, but not communally.

Re: # 67

Mr. Behram,
Now I understand quite well why there is the decline .............. It`s because the people of the culture are not ready to look at what`s really going wrong. It`s because of the people`s fear to scrutinize their own culture and turning a blind eye to the real issues. Now I understand. Thank you.

And where the hell did you get the idea that I am a proletizer?! Did any of my arguments focus on any other culture/ religion except the one under discussion? Or is it just because of my name, that you assumed it?

Lastly, I have nothing against or for any culture or religion. I was only trying to bring to the table issues that the community should look at. Because it is a very different angle of looking, that I was proposing. But I don`t expect people to understand it either. So, it was no surprise to me that you didn`t.

By the way, I worked on a project for UNESCO studying the Parsi community in Mumbai when I was there. Learnt a lot ..... a good experience.

- Samir Shaikh

I have nothing against Parsis......















































...........today

Re: # 63

Samir Shaikh Sahib:

Thank you, once again for acknowledging my response.

SS: I don`t think that`s the only measure of a culture`s contribution to the society.
BBA: Then please elucidate what else is there?


SS: Yes it is alive .... but in fragments and morphed forms ... not as in itself.
BBA: How did you arrive at this conclusion? Of course, the Arab culture decimated the true Persian culture. But that is bound to happen for any society. But, who is reviving this. The Iranians themselves with their 2,500 year celebration.

SS: That is my exact point, sir. Raising high walls and defending ourselves .... that`s not a sign of a good culture. That was my exact point about the social and cultural fabric. If we start ``preserving`` a culture, ``museumizing`` it, mummyfying it, then it is as good as dead already.

BBA: How do you define a good culture? I do not agree with your characterization of the Zoroastrian culture. We are definitely not in any museum. Open your eyes and you will see people aspiring to have ``Good Thoughts`` as the foundation of any living society.

SS: Be careful that you are modifying ........... and not ``morphing``. Be careful that in your zeal for modernism and futurism, you are not leaving behind that which needs to be desperately carried forward. It`s happened innumerable times in history. It`s nothing new. It`s just interesting to see in your own lifetime what you had been reading about what happened to some ancient cultures.

BBA: Thank you for the cautionary tone. Zoroatrians are constantly struggling to maintain their distinct heritage.

SS: And I am the last person on this planet to take refuge in numbers.
BBA: That is the whole crux of the proselytizers` arguments.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

re: #62

Dear Behram,
just a couple of things i wanted to pick up on:

i think it was fascinating what you said about pakistani parsis differing from bombay ones -proof that our culture is constantly devoloping/absorbing etc

secondly, i disagree with what you say about conversion. the key issue is outsiders and people born of one parsi parent (father or mother) converting TO zoroastrianism, not parsis converting to other faiths. you compare with islam not allowing conversions OUT, but as a proselytising faith, its message is universal and it certainly encourages new believers.
also, you answer
``Your assertion...{A culture can remain alive only through people and on the other hand, people can kill a culture...} I am sorry but Parsis are not killing their own culture, their own tradition, their own values, their own rituals. They are just defending what is left.....like an endangered species would. ``

i hasten to disagree! a recent ruling from the parsi priestly body threatened excommunication upon anyone, man or woman, who married out. here is the bbc link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2964155.stm

this is absolute self destruction. you say that quantity is not the only issue. yet with virtual extinction looming within 3 or 4 generations, i would say that numbers are everything. there is no doubt in my mind that our culture is as unique as ever. the problem is that it will die not from lack of diversity, but from lack of people.

Re: # 64
Hello Punnu halwai

there were many parsis prominent in the indian independance movement , however i think that on the whole, the majority of the community up to the 1940`s was pretty anglophile. (some might prefer arselicking!!). after all, they had prospered under the british, and like many other members of the then upper and upper middle classes (originally including Jinnah and Nehru), they identified with and hankered after notions of noble britishness inculcated by the colonial occupier, which needless to say, didnt exist outside of their collective imaginations!

many are still influenced by this period and by the number of overseas family they now have, making them by far the most anglophone community in india. however,they still rest completely and uniquely parsi, no other community resembles them anywhere in the world.

It is natural that certain aspects of english identity have been incorporated into theirs, and they have also taken on many more hindu influences too.(coconut breaking, bindu flowers, saris...). the british, like all the other historic waves of invaders (hindu aryans, greeks, afghans, persians, turks, moghuls...) left their trace on the subcontinent. (im sure you can all list countless positive, negative and ambiguous influences on ALL the indian religions and aspects of the society!)

the great zoroastrian music culture of ancient iran, whose direct successors are the modes and forms common in modern iranian and in particular Kurdish music, unfortunately never made it to indian shores, or at least not on the original parsi boats. (though the persian muslim cultures which later arrived here did transport arab-iranian music). which is the reason in parsi celebrations, AFTER the ceremony (though in no way during), this GHASTLY music may be played. ive also seen my extended family get together and sing along to songs in english. LET IT BE CLEAR, nobody in the world apart from the parsis actually listens and sings along to this crap, so we can say that it is peculiar to parsi culture!! :-)))

in our wonderful and unique cuisine, there are also english influences. eg at weddings one of the many dishes is Laganu ``Saas``, (gujerati for ``sauce``?), which is basically a flour based sauce with fish stewed in it. delicious, but probably english influenced. Does that mean we have no culinary culture?

All culture is the result of mix. ``Pure culture`` is an oxymoron

you also state:
`` My point of Parsis not being part of the mainstream is evident in daily life(like the Parsi colonies- White colonies in Brown neighbourhood) or Parsi owned businesses. It happens in other communities too, the Marwaris for instance but it is much more pronounced in Parsis.``

i think there is a slight underestimation here. The entire FABRIC of indian business is based on networks of extended family relationships, caste, and religious groupings. indeed historically this is true throughout much of the world. in villages, towns and cities. THere are obviously exceptions to this generalisation, but how many castes or religious sects are NOT associated with specific trades?

Hello harimau,

Here is a link for you to see.
http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus.html

Why I state that thsese names are Greek is because of Histories of Cyrus left by Greek researcher Herodotus. You can have a look at them here:

http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/logos1_01.htm

About Dara, here is a link:

http://www.avesta.org.ru/ushao/ushao_1371_04.doc

You might also consider having a look at the Iraninan Bay names:

http://cleo.lcs.psu.edu/boy_names.html


Hello fuzair,

I do feel the concept of racial Aryan purity is western in origin. For the Asian people Arya meant a nobleman. I`m sure the Parsis who came to India would have mixed amongst others(non-Zoarashtrians) in Iran and there would have been conversion to Zaoarashrianism in the early days. There is enough evidence of Buddhism being present in the regions of Balkh(Bactria). Since the Parsis become prosperous under the British(and became westernised) they began to think of themselves as exclusive and the people(Indians) who gave them refuge centuries gao as Natives. When a Brahmin doesnot let the shadow of a Shudra fall upon himself and sneers at a `Mallachha` that is racism too.

The Persians who came to India as boat people centuries ago were a merchant class, much like the Jews. They were not the Empire builders, they still are merchants(with a few exceptions).

Dear rustom,

You might have read about my observations at the Pilot Bundar Agairy. There is a difference between Culture and religion. Religious rituals are different from culture. Culture can be the same even in two different religions. For example the Punjabi`s of Pakistan and India have the same culture but different religions. This includes songs, dances and food. Though I do agree that the Parsis have a diffrent kind of food habit. Christians of some areas aside I donot know of any other community that sings English songs in their ceremonies. It is beacuse the Parsis have no sence of identity, of belonging. My point of Parsis not being part of the mainstream is evident in daily life(like the Parsi colonies- White colonies in Brown neighbourhood) or Parsi owned businesses. It happens in other communities too, the Marwaris for instance but it is much more pronounced in Parsis. Look at the Tata group mamangement, or the Afternoon Despatch and courier(till Behram Contaractor passes away).

About the names of Perisians. I have seen these names being used by Musilms as well. Rustom, Faruq, Feroz, Tehmina and Behram even Dara. But I have always wondered why do not the Muslims use the names like Ardeshir or Cowas? Was there something in the deeds of these people that was inimical to Islamic history. By the way did you know that the wrestling title of India was called? Rustom-e-Hind(after Rustom of Shahnamah)! And Dara Singh won it! Talk about Persian influence on India!

Punnu Halwai

Re: # 62
{``On a per capita basis we probably are still contibuting the largest in the societies we live in.``}

SS: I don`t think that`s the only measure of a culture`s contribution to the society.

{``Zoroastrian culture is well and alive in the clothes that most muslims wear, e.g. the shalwar/kameez is similar to the Zoroastrians clothing...As for the traditions and rituals...what do you think about the fire, that hindus have in their wedding ceremony etc. or for that matter, Iranians celebrate ``chaharshanbeh soori,`` Wednesday before Navrooz....where they jump over the fire in celebration for the New Year.``}

SS: Yes it is alive .... but in fragments and morphed forms ... not as in itself.

{``They are just defending what is left.....like an endangered species would. But, would the proselytizing world care? Those who believe in quantity can never understand this.``}

SS: That is my exact point, sir. Raising high walls and defending ourselves .... that`s not a sign of a good culture. That was my exact point about the social and cultural fabric. If we start ``preserving`` a culture, ``museumizing`` it, mummyfying it, then it is as good as dead already.

{``Parsis have always been modern and forward looking, and that is how they modify as they go along.``}

SS: Be careful that you are modifying ........... and not ``morphing``. Be careful that in your zeal for modernism and futurism, you are not leaving behind that which needs to be desperately carried forward. It`s happened innumerable times in history. It`s nothing new. It`s just interesting to see in your own lifetime what you had been reading about what happened to some ancient cultures.

And I am the last person on this planet to take refuge in numbers.

- Samir Shaikh

Re: # 44

Samir Shaikh Sahib,

I am sorry if I missed your point earlier. Thank your for acknowledging Zoroastrian contribution to the world religions.

You question about Zoroastrians contribution in today`s world...{...But the present definitely says the opposite. Why?} I disagree to a certain extent. On a per capita basis we probably are still contibuting the largest in the societies we live in.

You commented...{I have many Parsi friends,.......What do you expect a culture to do, than perish if there is no one to carry it forward?}

But do we know what Parsi culture is? Parsis are not monolithic. For example, I am from Karachi, and some would say that I have more of a Pakistani muslim culture in me, than a Parsi culture from Bombay.

In your Re: #45 Samir Shaikh Sahib you clarified your thoughts by identifying two things...

{I guess I am pointing at two different things here:
1. The decline of Parsi population
2. The decline of the Parsi culture}

I tend to agree with the notion that Parsi population is declining. There are several causes for this, but none has to do with the notion that Parsis do not convert. As you very well know, Islam forbids muslims to be converted out of their religion. If Zoroastrians were to start conversion, it would take less than an hour to wipe out all Parsis/Zoroastrians in Pakistan and Iran. Do you not agree?

Zoroastrian culture is well and alive in the clothes that most muslims wear, e.g. the shalwar/kameez is similar to the Zoroastrians clothing...As for the traditions and rituals...what do you think about the fire, that hindus have in their wedding ceremony etc. or for that matter, Iranians celebrate ``chaharshanbeh soori,`` Wednesday before Navrooz....where they jump over the fire in celebration for the New Year.

You are probably suggesting that all Zoroastrian values have been incorporated by others and there is no recognition given to the Zoroastrian in modern times. Well, I would agree with you.

Your assertion...{A culture can remain alive only through people and on the other hand, people can kill a culture...} I am sorry but Parsis are not killing their own culture, their own tradition, their own values, their own rituals. They are just defending what is left.....like an endangered species would. But, would the proselytizing world care? Those who beleive in quantity can never understand this.

I do not agree with you when you suggest...{What`s happening with the Parsi culture is both, and that`s why it is so alarming. The people are disappearing and there seems to be no way that the culture can be carried forward in a live way. True culture carries forward through words, dresses, language, custom, traditions, the social fabric.}

Parsis have always been modern and forward looking, and that is how they modify as they go along. If the issue is about quantity then please be bold and say so.

Yes, Samir Shaikh Sahib, I got your thought. Again, I am sorry that I must disagree with you.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Re: # 57

Fuzair,

{{If you`re a shrink, you seriously need to up your own Prozac dose! Or are you on Lithium now? }}

Dont leave your day-job pal...or did you leave Paki milt-ry because ``milt-ry intelligence`` was`nt your cup of tea?:)

Khuda Hafiz